keep in mind that lots of people connect support for the Iraq war with support for strong anti-terrorist policies. Some people do this for good reasons and some do it for bad reasons, but a lot of people do it. This presents a political reality that's independent of whether this connection is actually true.

Keep in mind also that lots of people connect support for the Iraq war with weak, misguided, and ineffective counter-terrorism policies, which also creates a political reality.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 01:58 PM | PERMALINK

The people we want to convince are the ones that connect the support for Iraq with strong anti-terrorist policies, though...

Posted by: Sandals at March 15, 2004 02:05 PM | PERMALINK

Herr Rumsfedlt Is a F'in idiot,along with the rest of this administration.

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 02:07 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely: I'm sorry but that doesn't actually seem very likely to me. I'd like to believe it as much as you, but there's just not much evidence that people suddenly turned against Aznar because they thought he was weak on terrorism.

It's easy to let our own beliefs convince us of facts that just aren't supported by the evidence. I think that might be happening here.

Posted by: Kevin Drum at March 15, 2004 02:08 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sure Wolf Blitzer really pounced on Rumsfeld after that doozy...CNN sucks so bad. It's War Porn.

Posted by: Times New Roman Online at March 15, 2004 02:09 PM | PERMALINK

I still just don't get how so many people can get snookered by the idea that the war in Iraq had anything to do with terrorism.

Repeat after me, America — Osama. Saddam. Not connected. Iraq a distraction.

Prospective trolls, if you think Bush is strong on terror, g'head, convince me. Give me an argument. I'll listen. But when you start busting out with "He kicked Saddam's ass, dawg!" is when I start tuning you out and wondering what TV shows are on tonight.

Posted by: Doug Gillett at March 15, 2004 02:20 PM | PERMALINK

For its primary armament, the F102 was equiped with nuclear tipped air-to-air missiles. Thus Lt. Bush would certainly have been subject to HRP scrutiny. I wonder who moved the evidence. . . .

Posted by: Kampf Jejeune at March 15, 2004 02:20 PM | PERMALINK

"Isham said there is a ‘‘good likelihood” HRP regulations were either applied or about to be applied against Bush and that is why he stopped flying on April 16, 1972."

Why is the National guard not answering questions anymore?Why is the pentagon not answering questions anymore?Why has th FOIA been denied reguargin this issue?

Mr Bush You got some splain'in to do.

This issue seems to have legs why wont the press pursue this "problem"?It seems much clearer now that there are issues that have either been covered up or deleted from the permanant files.The question is WHY?This seems like it should be investigated by the Justice department now.New information is a killer to this administration.And they dont want any to come out,too bad not all reporters are on the WHitehouse payroll.

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 02:21 PM | PERMALINK

I still just don't get how so many people can get snookered by the idea that the war in Iraq had anything to do with terrorism...Prospective trolls, if you think Bush is strong on terror, g'head, convince me. Give me an argument. I'll listen.

Libya.

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 02:24 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Troll:

My Secret Talks With Libya, And Why They Went Nowhere

For corroboration, see here. Thanks for playing, though.

Posted by: none at March 15, 2004 02:33 PM | PERMALINK

"Keep in mind also that lots of people connect support for the Iraq war with weak, misguided, and ineffective counter-terrorism policies, which also creates a political reality."

The War on Terror is being fought in the hearts and minds of people in the Middle East. The phrase 'hearts and minds' may be overused, but it is true. In the Middle East Iraq and the War on Terror are seen as connected. Even if it is not seen as connected by Iraq and Al-Qaeda contacts it is connected by US action. This may be a bad or a good thing, but the connection is there.

As a result, Spain withdrawing from Iraq in direct response to Al-Qaeda murders is good for Al-Qaeda and bad for the War on Terrorism. Remember the hearts and minds. It tells possible supporters of the terrorist organization that Al-Qaeda is still powerful enough to topple Western governments and force them to change their Mid-East foreign policy. It suggests to those who might oppose Al Qaeda that they shouldn't count on the West for protection.

Coming to power this way puts the Socialisits in a horrible position. They are committed to withdrawing from Iraq, which makes them APPEAR to be appeasing the terrorists. (Please note the 'APPEAR'. There me be millions of legitimate reasons for this. But to commit to change your foreign policy, in precisely a way that Al Qaeda wants, immediately after your government is unexpectedly swept into power in response to the most serious terrorist atrocity in Spain's history is to open yourself up to a really bad appearance.) This will be used by Al Qaeda, again and again for years to come. The only way the damage could be mitigated would be for the Socialist government to take some very strong and very public action on the War on Terror in the foreign policy sphere. I don't know what that would be. They aren't going to invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Perhaps try to organize some sort of sanctions against Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? I doubt it.

I suspect they will instead crack down internally (they are known for their brutality against the ETA) which will do nothing to change Al Qaeda's huge foreign policy/propaganda victory here.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 15, 2004 02:37 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry but that doesn't actually seem very likely to me. I'd like to believe it as much as you, but there's just not much evidence that people suddenly turned against Aznar because they thought he was weak on terrorism.

Actually, I don't think there is much evidence that people suddenly turned on Aznar at all -- the PP's support was sliding leading up to the election -- and to the extent they did, I think you are right insofar as I doubt it largely had anything to do with thinking he was "weak" on terrorism, so much as that he was "weak" on truth.

But I also don't think its likely that going into the polls, people voted against him because they thought his anti-terrorism policies were too effective either; I think its much more likely that they did so thinking that his policies were ineffective, whether that was the main reason they voted against him, a reason not to override the other reasons they wanted to vote against him, or mostly a side concern, I wouldn't say -- I suppose that probably varied strongly among the people voting against him.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 02:41 PM | PERMALINK

PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS: THE BOMBINGS IN MADRID OCCURRED EXACTLY 911 DAYS AFTER THE TWIN TOWERS WERE BROUGHT DOWN!!!! I WONDER WHY THE MEDIA HASN'T MENTIONED THAT??? PLEASE GET OUT THE WORD.

Posted by: PolicyWanker at March 15, 2004 02:42 PM | PERMALINK

They are committed to withdrawing from Iraq, which makes them APPEAR to be appeasing the terrorists.

No, they aren't. They are committing to withdrawing from Iraq if certain preconditions for staying aren't met. If they campaign vigorously for a new UN-led security force, then if the US balks -- its not their fault, its the US's -- and if they succeed, well, they don't pull out at all. There is a clear road forward, politically.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 02:43 PM | PERMALINK

Your followup to your Spain post is still lacking. Sure, a lot of people connect strong anti-terror policies with strong anti-Iraq policies, but A LOT of people actually, and not just rhetorically, do NOT. That political reality is one we don't experience too much here in this country, but you can't pretend that that doesn't exist.

Posted by: DaveOinSF at March 15, 2004 02:46 PM | PERMALINK

PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS: THE BOMBINGS IN MADRID OCCURRED EXACTLY 911 DAYS AFTER THE TWIN TOWERS WERE BROUGHT DOWN!!!! I WONDER WHY THE MEDIA HASN'T MENTIONED THAT???

It could be because its not true. 911 days after 9/11/01 was 3/10/01, and the attacks occurred on 3/11/01, so they were 912 days after 9/11, not 911 days, and that doesn't seem as significant. OTOH, they were exactly 6 months from the anniversary date of 9/11, which CNN and other media outlets have mentioned numerous times.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 02:48 PM | PERMALINK

912 days, actually. Leap year and all.

Oh, wait, sorry:
912 DAYS ACTUALLY!!!!!! LEAP YEAR AND ALL!!!!!!!!

Posted by: st at March 15, 2004 02:48 PM | PERMALINK

none
Anybody besides Gary Hart know anything about this? Why did he wait until now to say anything?

Besides, I like Colin Powell better:

WALLACE:...This is what Senator Kerry had to say, and you can see it on the screen: "Gadhafi's been trying to get back into the mainstream for several years now. There's evidence that we could've had that deal some time ago."
POWELL: It's absurd. I don't know what Senator Kerry's talking about. It's just absurd...

Thanks for playing, though.

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 02:49 PM | PERMALINK

The F-102 could use the AIM-26 Falcon nuclear-variant as a weapon, but I don't think it was the primary weapon.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html

Posted by: Alex at March 15, 2004 02:54 PM | PERMALINK

Josh Marshall, again, hits another one out of the park on the Spainish election.

SNIP:

In any case, just because al Qaida has adopted the Iraq cause as their own doesn’t mean we’ve damaged al Qaida by taking down the Baathist regime --- especially by doing it so incompetently. Just as likely --- in fact far more likely --- is that we’ve just handed them a useful recruiting tool while distracting ourselves from pursuing more effective means of extirpating them.

Posted by: emjaycue at March 15, 2004 02:55 PM | PERMALINK

What a cop out. If something isn't true -you have to begin each conversation challenging the
premise of that argument. Otherwise it gets accepted as true --which would give Fox et al even more excuses to lie on the nightly cablecasts.

It is especially important in not allowing it to be the filter for analysis of the Spanish decisions. The actions of the Spanish government must be considered in their contex not in some phony one of our making. sheeesh

Posted by: ann at March 15, 2004 03:03 PM | PERMALINK

- Just a note on one reason why the US didn't wait any longer. There was something about sandstorms making an invasion more difficult if they waited any longer before the war.

- On the now flogged to death army records scandal.
Give it up!. Kerry was never investigated on whether he knew many of the 'winter soldier' claims were forged. Kerry has never released his own medical records (he's afraid people will see his 3 Purple Heart's were for relatively minor wounds). Kerry's 10th crewmember says he's a coward.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,599034,00.html

Go back far enough and you can manufacture any conspiracy.

- On Spain, this is clearly a perceived victory for Al-Qaeda at present. Spain can turn it around by beefing up its Afghanistan involvement while pulling out of Iraq. If not, its adopted the belief terrorism is the fault of the target.

- My question is why doesn't Kerry address the Madrid election issue and condemn the Spanish decision as appeasement? Why keep pushing the "we're not safer" line so soon after Madrid? It almost looks like he is glorifying in a successful attack and positioning himself to gain from a new terrorist attack.

I'm not saying he can't say what he's saying. I'm just saying that taking that line without condemning appeasement is almost like saying "if Al Qaeda attacks, I am right".

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 03:07 PM | PERMALINK

People need to look up the word "appeasement" in the dictionary.

If there's someone out in the world (C) that wants player A to do action B, and player A does action B partly or even fully because of someting player C did, that does not equal appeasement.

Appeasement would be if C wants B and A does B simply because C wants B.

So everyone please never ever use the "A" word ever again. It's too stupid to for any more words.

Posted by: Tim at March 15, 2004 03:07 PM | PERMALINK

"Honorably discharged"
How come folks don't realize that being discharged is ...., well just that discharged. Bush was obviously snorting white powder, drinking, etc, and GOT NAILED. Why would any repugnacan who worships the ground he walks on WANT this reality to see the light of day? John Kerry, meanwhile was dodging bullets on the rivers of Vietnam. Wasn't it George Washington who said "I heard the rush of bullets in the air past my ear, ...it was a sound most exciting" (During a battle with the French all those long years agao)

Posted by: Tom Nicholson at March 15, 2004 03:11 PM | PERMALINK

Libya.

That doesn't really constitute an argument, especially since Libya was working on normalizing relations for years (PINR):

After ten years of international pressure and backdoor negotiations, Libya's announcement that it would abandon its programs on weapons of mass destruction still managed to surprise the global community. The announcement, coming on the heels of Saddam Hussein's capture in Iraq, has led many in the United States to claim that Tripoli's decision was in reaction to the Bush administration's recently demonstrated willingness to preemptively strike states it deems a threat to U.S. security. However, from a Libyan perspective, this shift was the next logical step in a policy that has been fifteen years in the making.
...
Since 1986, Libya has gradually abandoned the Arab nationalist and Palestinian causes; instead, it has begun to focus more on economic development and its position in regional discussions.

In March of 2003, Libya's chief of intelligence, Musa Kussa, contacted the British government and signaled Libya's willingness to publicly abandon its programs on weapons of mass destruction in return for concessions from the United States.

Posted by: NTodd at March 15, 2004 03:14 PM | PERMALINK

Why would any repugnacan who worships the ground he walks on WANT this reality to see the light of day?

Because I'm sticking by the words of John Kerry:

What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict...We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways...But while those who served are owed special recognition, that recognition should not come at the expense of others; nor does it require that others be victimized or criticized or said to have settled for a lesser standard.

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 03:15 PM | PERMALINK

"Just a note on one reason why the US didn't wait any longer. There was something about sandstorms making an invasion more difficult if they waited any longer before the war."

Is that why the war got bogged down because of a sandstorm?

"- On the now flogged to death army records scandal.
Give it up!. "

I dont think it should be goven up.Especially in light of this new information.The administration is hiding something and you want to give a free pass..WHY do you insist in not questioning government??Especially this one?

"Kerry has never released his own medical records (he's afraid people will see his 3 Purple Heart's were for relatively minor wounds). Kerry's 10th crewmember says he's a coward."

Why wont bush release his medical records.Look I dint care about medical records.That is not the issue here,The issue is weather bush was using drugs and got booted for flight status.If he was do you think that makes him fit to have his finger on the nuklear button?Also I bet if I asked 10 people you know,one of the would have something negative to say about you.

"Why keep pushing the "we're not safer" line so soon after Madrid?

What pray tell makes us safer now than on sept 10?

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 03:17 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin

70% of the US population believe Saddam had something to do with 9/11, prewar CNN poll.

Is this your "political reality" equating support for the Iraq war with support for strong anti-terrorist policies ?

I don't understand how you could countenance such nonsense based as it is on a seriously deluded public fed deceptions and outright lies by this administration in the build up to the invasion of Iraq.

Is there a liberal talking point lying around somewhere that I missed ? Does seperating the Iraq war/occupation from the WOT open us up to losing the national security issue ?

I'm all for tactical manouvering and expediancy in the current circumstances but I need to see some reasoning and I WONT drink the GOP's koolaid, thankyou.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 03:17 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/29/222552.shtml

Kerry has released less medical records than George Bush. Media has ignored it. Why shouldn't liberals question someone who raises Vietnam as an issue and hides his own records?

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 03:19 PM | PERMALINK

Support for Iraq War =
Support for doing anything Georgie says = FAKE strong anti-terrorist policy, also profitable to Georgie and his friends.

Support for NOT invading Iraq = Support for sending 100,000 troops to Afghanistan to get the 9/11 perps = actual strong anti-terrorist policy.

Posted by: Occam's Cuisinart at March 15, 2004 03:20 PM | PERMALINK

NTodd
Sure, Libya's been dying for years to get on the good side of the US. Contacted an ex-senator in 1992 they did. They've been sending roses weekly since then, no doubt.

Spin it any way you want, but Libya came around after the war.

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 03:24 PM | PERMALINK

Occam's Cuisinart: You are so misguided. Do you think that in all the years we are going to wage war against terrorism that we should only stay in Afghanistan? What a narrow-minded view. Terrorism is a world problem, it's not an Afghani problem. From New York to Bali to Madrid and everywhere in between you will find terrorists. If only it were so easy that all the world's terrorists were hanging out in Afghanistan. Your child-like simplicity is endearing though, keep it up.

Posted by: Thomas at March 15, 2004 03:25 PM | PERMALINK

From Ron,
"POWELL: It's absurd. I don't know what Senator Kerry's talking about. It's just absurd..."

Well, rumors of Powell being credible have been wildly exaggerated.

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 03:28 PM | PERMALINK

"keep in mind that lots of people connect support for the Iraq war with support for strong anti-terrorist policies. Some people do this for good reasons and some do it for bad reasons, but a lot of people do it. This presents a political reality that's independent of whether this connection is actually true."

This is not what you said last night, Kevin. Perhaps you misspoke last night, which is possible, because it was an utterly shocking post. Last night you claimed that voting out Aznar was allowing terrorists to "accomplish their goal". Today you would like us to believe that you were simply saying that others may connect support for PSOE with allowing terrorists to 'win', but until you specifically renounce what you said last night, I'm not buying your attempt to remove yourself from this "lots of people" category.

You also still have not dealt with the issue that such a conception denies any independent democratic decision-making when facing terrorism.

Further, Kevin, why do you work within a GOoPer framework of analysis (equating supporting the war on Iraq with strong anti-terror policies) instead of challenging it? Clearly the Spanish voters challenge it. To them, the Madrid bombing shows that Aznar's anti-terror strategy has clearly failed, in that it has not stopped terror. I guess what upsets me so much about the way you have handled this issue is your unwillingness to think outside the box, to use a roaring '90s term. The way that the Bushites have framed the debate matters, it matters a lot, it allows them to manipulate the discourse and control the outcome. Unless we challenge that, we get nowhere.

It's OK to admit you were wrong, Kevin. Really.

Posted by: eugene at March 15, 2004 03:28 PM | PERMALINK

===
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/15/spain.invest/index.html

CNN has found an Al-Qaeda document stating its objectives were to drive the Socialist to victory.
You may not think this is a victory but they certainly do.

Kerry needs to make quite clear he opposes appeasement (without agreeing with preemptive war). If he fails to do so, he is handing Al Qaeda a motive to attack the US.

===
On Libya: Did previous diplomatic efforts by Libya include handing over 40,000lbs of mustard gas? Funny they got around to that. Iraq had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 03:34 PM | PERMALINK

President Muffley: General Turgidson, when you instituted the human reliability tests, you assured me there was no possibility of such a thing ever occurring.

Turgidson: Well I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip up sir.

Posted by: Matt at March 15, 2004 03:38 PM | PERMALINK

But to commit to change your foreign policy, in precisely a way that Al Qaeda wants [...] in response to the most serious terrorist atrocity in Spain's history is to open yourself up to a really bad appearance.

As bad an appearance as the US withdrawing it's troops from Saudi Arabia, just like Ossama demanded?

Posted by: ed at March 15, 2004 03:40 PM | PERMALINK

Thomas;
Afghanistan/Pakistan did 9/11. Al Qaeda's base was there, their leader was there (and still is today!).

You start there. You get those individuals.
Then you stop playing political footsie with folks who support terrorism. (Mushtarraf, and Mr Bush's other political parters in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait).
Then you move on to the next most likely place, if you're so inclined - Iran, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Saudi Arabia - Iraq is much further down that list.

Insisting that 9/11 was planned and executed by Saddam (and therefore attacking Iraq was justified) is the epitome of naiive and misguided.

Posted by: Occam's Cuisinart at March 15, 2004 03:40 PM | PERMALINK

ch2 says
rumors of Powell being credible have been wildly exaggerated
My how quickly y'all turn on people.

Powell received exuberant praise from both Democratic and Republican senators on the committee for his February 5 presentation to the United Nations Security Council. Senator Joseph Biden, (Democrat-Delaware) the committee's ranking minority member, said "No Democrat or Republican could have done a better job than you. I'm proud to be associated with you."

"I think you did better than anyone could have because of your standing, your reputation and your integrity as it is understood by our European friends as well as others around the world," Biden said.

Massachusetts Democratic Senator John Kerry, a Democrat candidate for President, echoing Powell, agreed that there is "an enormous burden on the U.N. to carry out its duties."

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 03:42 PM | PERMALINK

If ever there was a reason for not letting a political reality that is a lie stand --89% of Fox Viewers think the Spanish stink --because the Fox News is based ont the faux reality and now the same people who think we found WMD's now think the Spanish are cowards....

Posted by: annie at March 15, 2004 03:43 PM | PERMALINK

Just because Kerry was wrong about Iraq does not make Powell any more credible.

Posted by: ed at March 15, 2004 03:43 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, should have given the source.

Posted by: Ron at March 15, 2004 03:45 PM | PERMALINK

Not to repeat the obvious (which of course means I will anyway), but I think that the umbrage your comment on the Spanish elections generated, particularly the "reflecting poorly on the electorate" part had to do not with the fact that lots of people connect the war in Iraq with being strong on terrorism, that's patently evident, it's that YOU seemed to as well.

Once again, the Spanish people could just have decided -- hey, this PP party is strong on terrorism and we believe the Socialists will be too. But, you know what, PP had their chance and their strategy flunked, we need to try a different strategy to combat terrorism, and the Socialists can hardly do worse.

Posted by: Dawn at March 15, 2004 03:45 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, What "good reasons" could there possibly be for people to connect support for the Iraq war with support for strong anti-terrorist policies? There is no connection, period. You are giving comfort to all the lies.

Posted by: Teej at March 15, 2004 03:48 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, That's about as clear as John Kerry's explanation about the foriegn leaders he's been talking to, that looked him right in the eye...no wait, he talked to them on the phone...no wait, he received notes....

Me thinks he was lying from the start...

Posted by: keiser at March 15, 2004 03:51 PM | PERMALINK

Gosh ed, I can't think of one substantial difference between the Spanish pullout of Iraq and the US pullout of Saudi Arabia.

Hmm, can you identify for me how many days between 9-11 and the announcement of the US pullout? Now identify the number of days between 3-11 and the announcement of the Spanish pullout. Dramatic difference isn't it? Is that difference suggestive?

Next, the purpose of the pullout. The troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia to protect it from Saddam. The troops were pulled as part of the destruction of Saddam. Do the Spanish see the end in sight for the War on Terrorism?

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 15, 2004 03:52 PM | PERMALINK

CNN has found an Al-Qaeda document stating its objectives were to drive the Socialist to victory.
You may not think this is a victory but they certainly do.

Right. Because al-Qaeda is only a terrorist organization, not the kind of group to engage in strategic misinformation for propaganda purposes.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 03:53 PM | PERMALINK

Has anyone found a foriegn leader that LOOKED KERRY IN THE EYE in the past year?? two years?

Is he the inventor of the internet now too??

Looks like Kerry has FUZZY LEADERS.

Posted by: keiser at March 15, 2004 03:53 PM | PERMALINK

Rumsfeld's quote proves how wrong and evil Kerry was to call Republicans crooked liars!

Posted by: Al at March 15, 2004 03:59 PM | PERMALINK

what person pulled these cats tails to get them out of their hidey holes?

"it's not an Afghani problem. From New York to Bali to Madrid and everywhere in between you will find terrorists."

What about the terrorists in Texas?SHould we invade Texas and New York too?

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 04:01 PM | PERMALINK

Ron,
"My how quickly y'all turn on people."

First, regarding the "y'all": LOL ! For the record, "I" never praised Colin Powell. You may be forgiven to think that my deep insight meant I just MUST have held office.

Second, regarding "how quickly": over a year (Feb 2003-Mar 2004), nothing too outlandish about changing one's mind after a year, ESPECIALLY when,

Third, and most importantly: NOW we know that his eloquence served to present LIES and OVERSTATEMENTS.

Maybe you should have said, "My how quickly those Republicans get caught in their lies and lose any semblance of credibility."

Yup.

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 04:05 PM | PERMALINK

BLOCKBUSTER FROM KERRY BIOGRAPHER:

Kerry attended vote on whether to assasinate American Senators.

What did Sen. John Kerry know and when did he know it about a plot to assassinate U.S. senators hatched at a November 1971 Kansas City meeting of his group Vietnam Veterans Against America?

According to presidential biographer Douglas Brinkley, that's the question Sen. Kerry needs to answer. If it turns out that the Democratic presidential nominee knew of the treasonous plan, Brinkley says he had an obligation to go to the authorities.

"The question is: did Kerry quit [VVAW] before Kansas City or did he quit after Kansas City," Brinkley told WABC Radio's Steve Malzberg. "If he quit after Kansas City, that means he clearly knew about this assassination plot against the senators and never went to the authorities."

Kerry says he submitted his official letter of resignation to the VVAW just days before the critical Kansas City confab. But two Vietnam veterans who attended the session told the New York Sun on Friday that they remember Kerry being there.

Meanwhile, copies of Kerry's resignation letter are nowhere to be found.

Brinkley, whose book "Tour of Duty" chronicles Kerry's Vietnam War exploits, said that the former Navy lieutenant had an obligation to warn authorities about the frightening plan, telling Malzberg, "Clearly his critics would say, if he had known about it why didn't he report it."

Kerry officials in Florida have recently invited the assassination plan's author, Scott Camil, to join the senator's campaign.

Brinkley described Camil as "a hothead who wanted to bring down the U.S. government."

"I'm a little shocked that the Kerry campaign would want him actively working with them in Florida," he told Malzberg.

WOW, AND I THOUGHT BUSH WAS BAD FOR MISSING A MEETING AND MAKING IT UP LATER..WHAT WILL MACAULLIFFE SAY ABOUT PLOTTING TO KILL US SENATORS???

Posted by: Keiser at March 15, 2004 04:08 PM | PERMALINK

I can't think of one substantial difference between the Spanish pullout of Iraq and the US pullout of Saudi Arabia.

well seb, there will be a lot less spanish soldiers dying in this war on an adjective. That's pretty substantial to the spanish, but I'm sure far, far less so to Bushco apologists.

Posted by: ed at March 15, 2004 04:12 PM | PERMALINK

WHy does the right wing hate America so much?
Why do they always want to come up with distractions?Why cant they stay on point?They follow the party line to a tee.Talking points only and when the debate turns away from them distract then go back to the talking points.EVERYTIME!

Bush has lied to you people and you love him for it.Why not ASK a question about your Dear leader intead of trying to cover for him?

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 04:13 PM | PERMALINK

Huh? Can't these guys even be bothered to make up decent lies anymore? They were only out because we told them to leave so that we could start the war.

Ummm. No. They figure that if they repeat it enough times people will believe it. And sadly enough they're probably right. What's sadder is the press doesn't call them on this nonsense. It's maddening.

Posted by: four legs good at March 15, 2004 04:16 PM | PERMALINK

OT,
How do I get to put sentences in italics ?

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 04:17 PM | PERMALINK

Even if Al qaeda wanted to socialists to win, does that mean that if the spaniards wanted the socialists in for other reasons, then those reasons are invalid.

Because, if you insist that the only valid reaction is to do the opposite of what the terrorists want, no matter how stupid that option is, then aren't you allowing the terrorists to dictate how you act?

What Al Qaeda's goals were is completely irrelevant to the validity of what the Spaniards did, and whether or not it was a well-reasoned decision. Calling it appeasement simply because it coincides with what Al Qaeda's goals may or may not have been is idiotic.

Finally, people who are saying this is "ominous" forget that Al Qaeda can only "influence elections" like this if the government fails to protect the people and fails to stop Al Qaeda. The people crying and whining the most about the Spanish elections are the ones sounding the most like Al Qaeda is some unstoppable force. "The world is over because people react to terrorist attacks!"

If you don't want Al Qaeda influencing elections then... MAKE POLICIES THAT PROTECT THE PUBLIC FROM BOMBS AND, ALSO, ACTUALLY GO AFTER AL QAEDA. Stop them from attacking and you stop people's reaction to any attacks. It's not rocket science.

The bitching and moaning about the symptoms of the Al Qaeda's attack, namely, the Spanish reaction, ignores that fact that people should really be bitching and moaning about the DISEASE -- i.e. the fact that Bush's policies and Aznar's policies failed to protect Spain. If these policies had succeeded in protecting Spain then there would have been no bombing, and therefore, there would have been no symptoms. The hue and cry about the Spanish reaction is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that the bombing itself is a setback and it is evidence that the current policies are failing.

And the funny thing is, usually symptoms are signs of a body, in this case the body politic, attempting to cure the disease, and thus, as long as symptoms don't kill the body symptoms tend to be a good thing.

Thus, we shouldn't be harping about whether or not we think the symptoms are bad or good. We should be looking at the disease, and whether or not the current cure is doing any good.

Posted by: emjaycue at March 15, 2004 04:21 PM | PERMALINK

Why on earth would anyone expect the Spanish, with their long conflict with the ETA, to associate terrorism primarily with either Iraq OR Al-Qaeda? As many people have pointed out, the Socialists have been accused of *over*zealousness against Basque terrorism... and that's the kind that Spain has primarily been familiar with up to now. Aznar showed absolutely no sign of knowing how to fight terror, unless you think going into Iraq is fighting terror. If you live in Spain, electing Aznar would not be a get-tough-on-terror gesture, it would be a we-don't-know-what-the-fuck-to-do-but-we-trust-the-Americans-even-if-it-gets-us-killed gesture. Kevin thinks they should have done so anyway in order to avoid giving the wrong impression to Americans who don't know anything about Spain. How arrogant.

Let's pretend:

1. Terrorist bombings in Russia are blamed on Chechens.

2. Putin persuades the U.S. to send our troops to Chechnya, where many of them get killed for very uncertain goals.

3. Meanwhile we're still suffering terror attacks at home that have nothing to do with Chechnya... and now some other group, using Chechnya as an excuse, commits a horrible atrocity here.

4. U.S. voters decide that perhaps our troops should be elsewhere, and vote for an aggressive law-and-order type, who vows to get us out of Chechnya *and* get the bastards who did this.

5. Kevin Drum's Russian counterpart, who is by no means a Putin supporter, chides us for not having our priorities straight and being soft on terror. Actually he just meant we were giving the average uninformed Russian the "impression" that we're soft on terror (by which he means, soft on anti-Russian terror), and we don't want that, do we? Don't we understand that Russia's interests are our own, and that securing Chechnya is worth a few hundred or thousand American lives, even though we'll still keep getting blown up here even if we win there?

6. Failing miserably to think like good Russians, the American public responds to Mr. Drumski's concerns with a big raspberry.

Posted by: Eli at March 15, 2004 04:23 PM | PERMALINK

Powell received exuberant praise from both Democratic and Republican senators on the committee for his February 5 presentation to the United Nations Security Council.

Whatever Senators said at the time, he demolished his credibility. It's one of the most shameful performances ever before the UN.

Posted by: Roger Bigod at March 15, 2004 04:24 PM | PERMALINK

Sebastian Holclaw,

"Now identify the number of days between 3-11 and the announcement of the Spanish pullout. Dramatic difference isn't it? Is that difference suggestive?"

Are you truly unaware that the PSOE was against going to Iraq from the onset ? You got your own blog and I would have figured you would at least research your positions... This'll blow you mind: During the campaign, BEFORE the bombings ever occurred, the PSOE announced:
If elected,we will pull out our soldiers by June 30th if Iraq's future is not in UN hands.

The same thing was repeated after they won. The bombings did not change the PSOE platform one iota.

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 04:29 PM | PERMALINK

My question: Are some of you people really as dumb as you sound, or do you collect a paycheck from the RNC?

Posted by: David at March 15, 2004 04:30 PM | PERMALINK

ch2

use the greater than/less than symbols as brackets around an i (i) at the beginning and (/i) at the end of each quoted paragraph.

or right click, view source to see how I wrote this

regards

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 04:30 PM | PERMALINK

Why does the Spanish election have to be about terrorism?WHy cant it be that the Spanish government tried to lie about who was responsible for the bombings?Does everything in the world have to revolve around terrorism and killing them?If we found out that W lied to us do you think he would not be voted out?I mean lied as in courthouse conviction lie.

Which brings about the question would people throw the bastards out these days if they found out about a lying government?Apparently the Spaniards will/did.

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 04:36 PM | PERMALINK

italics test
Great ! Thanks postit. :)

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 04:37 PM | PERMALINK

Times New Roman: "I'm sure Wolf Blitzer really pounced on Rumsfeld after that doozy..."

Well, the light went on in his head, but Wolf didn't exactly clamp his jaws on Rummy's ankle. The follow-up exchange went thus:

RUMSFELD: Well, the U.N. inspectors were not in there. The U.N. inspectors were out.

BLITZER: Well, they left after the U.S. made it clear that the war was about to begin.

RUMSFELD: And I would just say the answer is yes, you asked this question at the outset, and I answered it yes, I think it was the right thing to do. I don't know how many resolutions one would want. There were 17 [UN resolutions]. Should you go to double it, to 34?

The CNN transcript also includes this gem:

BLITZER: Did you think a year ago that a year after the war U.S. troops would still be dying in Iraq?

RUMSFELD: Well, if one goes back and looks at what happened in Germany, certainly at the end of the war things don't suddenly go away. Major combat stops, but resistance can continue.

Again with the Werewolves!!

Posted by: Grumpy at March 15, 2004 04:40 PM | PERMALINK

Perhaps the last word on the subject:

Weren't we better off when Bush I was in power and his favorite grouping of words was "a thousand points of light" and Michael Jackson was one of them and now with Bush II we have "either you're with us or against us" and with us are the slowly dwindling crowd of Britain, Poland and Italy and against us is almost everyone else?

Subterranean question: "Hey, what's up with the Bush family?"

Posted by: DRWHO at March 15, 2004 04:40 PM | PERMALINK

CNN has found an Al-Qaeda document stating its objectives were to drive the Socialist to victory.
You may not think this is a victory but they certainly do.

Reading the link it looks a lot to me like CNN found some relevant discussion about this on some random internet message board. CNN gives no proof that the poster actually WAS an Al Qaeda person nor do they say what the message board was. There's ABSOLUTELY NO CONTEXT to figure out what exactly this "document" was -- it could very well have been some prankster, or it could have been just some looney spouting some crackpot theory some months ago, which happened to match reality from the the coincidence of zillions of message boards online.

CNN also has obtained a document posted on an Internet message board analysts believe is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The strategy spelled out in the document, posted last December on the Internet, calls for using terrorist attacks to drive Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

Posted by: emjaycue at March 15, 2004 04:44 PM | PERMALINK

Ahhhh Hahhhhh! I have a plan...let's start terrorizing France until it sends troops to Iraq..it's a great policy since we know Europeans will cave to terrorists...Once we bomb a few French trains..those spineless French are bound to capitulate and send 50,000 troops!

Posted by: keiser at March 15, 2004 04:53 PM | PERMALINK

it could very well have been some prankster, or it could have been just some looney spouting some crackpot theory some months ago.

Unless they downloaded off of the internet some months ago, it could be some loony who posted it this morning and gimmicked the dates.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 04:57 PM | PERMALINK

hey keiser, can i have some of what ever you're snortin'?

Posted by: ed at March 15, 2004 04:58 PM | PERMALINK

On the spain thing I think it is quite clear that the biggest effect the bombings had was on turnout. It is very likely that they did not actually change many minds at all, but they did encourage a lot of younger people to vote who would not have bothered otherwise.

The two reasons that may have changed peoples minds are support fot the Iraq war and the perception the government was seeking to exploit the bombings. The Bushies really should take the second issue seriously, their 9/11 ads play well with their base, but heck if Bush hasn't carried enough water for white male fundamentalist Christian plutocrats already nothing will satisfy them.

As for the result being a victory, al Qaeda quite likely would have prefered a reactionary government in power. The general scheme of terrorists is to drive governments to react in ways that de-legitimize them. The worst mistake made by the British in Ireland was to intern the leaders of the IRA without trial. This did not cut down the violence but it did let the terrorists claim that the government was oppressive. Huge amounts of cash flowed in from ex-pat IRA supporters in the US.

The Bush administration has done pretty much everything Al Qaeda would want. They have withdrawn troops from Saudi Arabia, abandoned international law, destabilized Iraq.

Posted by: Phill at March 15, 2004 05:03 PM | PERMALINK

ed, it may rather be the pills he's not taking.

Posted by: ch2 at March 15, 2004 05:04 PM | PERMALINK

Huh?

In a parliamentary system, the dates of elections are not known more than a few weeks in advance. If AlQaeda followed their usual procedures, the Madrid attacks were planned for a year or longer.

But I don't think alQaeda would have timed the Madrid attacks for the week before an election, any more than they would have timed it for the week before a movie premiere. They don't understand what elections are or why we have them; it is a facet of our behavior that is probably so incomprehensible to them that they can't even consciously take it into account.

That, in turn, is a special case of Wilhoit's Theory of alQaeda, which states that everything they think they know about us is wrong; and we had best find a way to turn that to account, because it may be the only advantage we have.

...while here at home sits the merry Republican Party, pursuing civil war by other means, invading one difficult faraway place after another for the sole purpose of reminding American liberals that they, too, can be killed (as Ann Coulter said about John Lindh).

Posted by: Frank Wilhoit at March 15, 2004 05:05 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely:

I agree with you. Whether this was a success for al Qaeda depends on what Spain does next. there will be many meetings of EU, NATO, and UN ministers between now and July 1. I'll bet that by then they have arranged a response that both demonstrates their participation in the war on terror and respects that most Spanish did not want to participate in the Iraq war. For example, they could transfer the Spanish soldiers who are in Iraq to Afghanistan to participate in the currrent relativley large scale operations in search of OBL. That's just an example.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler at March 15, 2004 05:07 PM | PERMALINK

Regarding point three:

How did Wolf respond? Did he press him on this?

Do you think the Republicans would be so brazen in their lying if they were worried that the Big Media personalities were prepared to point out the truth?

Unfortunately, the fact that they are engaged in constant lying shows that they have a pretty good understanding of the way the mainstream media works in America.

Posted by: Vesicle Trafficker at March 15, 2004 05:09 PM | PERMALINK

Eli, excellent post. I think I'm going to have to start calling Kevin "Mr. Drumskov" (-ski is a Polish naming convention). But the point is excellent - why exactly is it that Spain should suffer for our imperialist adventures?

Posted by: eugene at March 15, 2004 05:10 PM | PERMALINK

But I don't think alQaeda would have timed the Madrid attacks for the week before an election, any more than they would have timed it for the week before a movie premiere. They don't understand what elections are or why we have them; it is a facet of our behavior that is probably so incomprehensible to them that they can't even consciously take it into account.

I don't buy this "ignorant savages" view of al-Qaeda. Just because they don't share our systems doesn't mean they don't study how it works, where it is vulnerable, and how to exploit it. In fact, I think the evidence is this is an area that al-Qaeda works very hard in.

Posted by: cmdicely at March 15, 2004 05:19 PM | PERMALINK

The danger of Spain's perceived appeasement is that the next time someone needs to deter Spain, they will almost certainly threaten terrorism.
For example, assume Spain finds out that Iran sheltered and funded the attack in Madrid. The moment they announce the information, the likelihood of a terrorist threat being made to influence their actions is very high...(/i)because it looks as if it has worked before.(/i)

Spain can exit Iraq. However in the absence of a show of determination against terrorism of some kind, it becomes a bigger target....(/i)because it looks as if it has worked before.(/i)

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 05:19 PM | PERMALINK

researcher,

you wrote

Kerry needs to make quite clear he opposes appeasement (without agreeing with preemptive war). If he fails to do so, he is handing Al Qaeda a motive to attack the US.

I think it is very unlikely that Kerry is going to be able to make any opinion of his quite clear. Except for that, I think you make a good point.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler at March 15, 2004 05:22 PM | PERMALINK

Researcher

Do you ever Do any "research" or just pull this stuff out your ass, if the latter I hope you washed your hands before typing what I'm reading.

I don't think there's much evidence of any of the former in your posts, at least not beyond the obvious wingnut sources, Faux news, Freeperdom, Coulter etc.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 05:24 PM | PERMALINK

Mr Marler !

Do please elucidate your reasons for doubting my presidential candidates veracity on points of national security.

I'm waiting.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 05:27 PM | PERMALINK

Researcher,

the other issue is whether al Qaeda now tries to affect elections in the Netherlands and Poland, in hopes of forcing those nations to withdraw their troops from Iraq. And other nations. If Spain appears to accede to al Qaeda demands, they may put those nations at greater risk.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler at March 15, 2004 05:28 PM | PERMALINK

Conversations between right wing nuts to take place on other blogs please, move along now.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 05:30 PM | PERMALINK

is it true that the Arabic calendar does not have Leap Year days?

I heard that was the explanation for why this was 912 days instead of 911. (But it's still 912 days?!)

Posted by: Occam's Cuisinart at March 15, 2004 05:38 PM | PERMALINK

postit,

what I doubt about Kerry is not his veracity but his clarity.

He claims to be tough on Cuba: but he voted for a version of Helms-Burton that was defeated, and then voted against the version that passed -- that's defensible, but it isn't clear; he was in favor of remanding Elian Gonzalez to Cuba, but against the way it was done (without saying how it ought to have been done.) He has repudiated everything he has said about Iraq. He has called Bush a "liar" for saying the same things about Iraqi WMDs that were said before by Clinton and Kerry himself. He claims to have been misled by Bush into voting for the Iraqi war resolution because he thought that Bush meant something other than what Bush clearly said.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler at March 15, 2004 05:42 PM | PERMALINK

Marler

He has repudiated everything he has said about Iraq. He has called Bush a "liar" for saying the same things about Iraqi WMDs that were said before by Clinton and Kerry himself. He claims to have been misled by Bush into voting for the Iraqi war resolution because he thought that Bush meant something other than what Bush clearly said.

Well let's take the Iraq business 1st, not very specific are you, what has he repudiated ? Bush is a liar I have no problem with this statement.
Half the godammed country has been misled by this president and this administration, so again not unique. What has GWB ever, ever cleary said beyond "bring it on" and "your either with us or agin us" ?

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 05:52 PM | PERMALINK

Post-it-

One reason is that the wrong people like Kerry.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/15/125545.shtml

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper, just four days before he swept to victory riding a wave of anti-U.S. feeling sparked by the al Qaeda train bombings in Madrid.

Two days earlier Zapatero had blasted Aznar's alliance with the U.S., calling the Bush administration "the most reactionary American administration in recent times."

"We're aligning ourselves with Kerry," Zapatero proclaimed to the International Herald Tribune. "Our alliance will be for peace, against war, no more deaths for oil, and for a dialogue between the government of Spain and the new Kerry administration."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/15/162909.shtml

Whatever the reason, the French love John Kerry, and it shows.

"People are going crazy. My phone is ringing from morning to night because everybody wants to know about Kerry," the head of the France chapter of Democrats Abroad, Constance Borde, told the Sun. "I'm even getting calls from French people asking if they can contribute to the campaign, and of course I have to tell them no. This is something I've never seen happening."

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 05:54 PM | PERMALINK

Some basic HTML info:

<i>italic text<i> = italic text
<b>bold text<b> = bold text
<a href="http://www.calpundit.com">linked text<a> = linked text

&lt; = <
&gt; = >
&amp; = &

Posted by: yet another kevin at March 15, 2004 05:55 PM | PERMALINK

And lastly Kerry pretends Iraq had nothing to do with terror because it had nothing to do with 9/11. Hudson Institute report begs to differ.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/14/141831.shtml

Saddam supported:

Abdul Rahman Yasin, who was indicted for mixing the chemicals for the bomb used in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six New Yorkers and injured over 1,000. Yasin fled to Baghdad after the attack, where he was given sanctuary and lived for years afterward.

Khala Khadar al-Salahat, a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal, who reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. The attack killed all 259 passengers, including 189 Americans. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad last April and was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.

Abu Nidal, whose terror organization is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans, and wounding 788 more. Nidal lived in Baghdad from 1999 till August 2002, when he was found shot to death in his state-supplied home.

Abu Abbas, who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, during which wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was pushed over the side to his death. U.S. troops captured Abbas in Baghdad on April 14, 2003. He died in U.S. custody last week.

Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who ran an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and reportedly arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Jordan. Al Zarqawi is still at large.

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 05:58 PM | PERMALINK

...shit. didn't proofread. to close a tag, you need a slash in it:

<i>italic</i>

Posted by: yet another kevin at March 15, 2004 05:59 PM | PERMALINK

RUMSFELD: Well, if one goes back and looks at what happened in Germany, certainly at the end of the war things don't suddenly go away. Major combat stops, but resistance can continue.

Number of US soldiers killed after German surrender: zero.

Posted by: Roger Bigod at March 15, 2004 06:00 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, Marler- What Bush clearly said is that Iraq had WMDs.

"The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."
-President Bush, Oct 7, 2002.

He went on to say that Iraq probably had 60,000 to 120,000 liters of "anthrax and other deadly biological agents". 60-120 thousand liters! Not likely that's all been hidden, eh? Or trucked to Iran?

Everyone supported the war in Iraq because of the evidence the Bush administration presented. We know now that it was all a frigging lie.

Your point on Cuba was well taken; a mistake for Kerry to ever have said that. But you cannot decry Kerry for such without decrying Bush for his ten-times-worse behavior. From Medicare (_willfully_ lying to Congress, and by extension, the American people.) to Iraq, they'll go to any length to do what they want.

Posted by: Sandals at March 15, 2004 06:04 PM | PERMALINK

Number 'Researcher' posts with a non-wingnut source=0.

Posted by: lordwhorfin at March 15, 2004 06:05 PM | PERMALINK

Newsmax ! .... Newsmax !!!!

You come here with 'research' from newsmax and expect to get a fair hearing. Be gone with you satan.

Actually it will be nice to have a president who is popular around the world again, once JFK is elected in november.

The people in Spain are spanish, the people in France are french they all have their own little ways and like most Europeans they do not suborn their foreign policy or security to the whim and fortune of any particular US administration and certainly not this one.

No one disputes he gave sanctuary to individual terrorists or that he sent a lot of money to terrorists and other organisations organising against Israel none of which made him unique among arab leaders in general. But there is no there there regarding operational links with the new breed of terrorism represented by Al Qeada

And as you conveniently point out,

Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who ran an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and reportedly arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Jordan. Al Zarqawi is still at large.

this was US controlled territory, why didn't GWB do something about it at the time, why wait till the invasion proper, possibly because it was the one cast-iron link to Al Qeada he could offer and he wanted to preserve this as a rational for invasion ?

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 06:13 PM | PERMALINK

Two points:

Aznar was not running for re-election. The Popular Party was running his designated heir.

Why should we give a shit what the terrorists think?

Posted by: bad Jim at March 15, 2004 06:20 PM | PERMALINK

Sandals, postit

I don't deny that Bush said that Iraq had WMDs. I merely pointed out that Clinton and Kerry said so before Bush did.

Kerry voted for the Iraqi regime change act (whatever it was called, 1998). He voted for the Iraqi war resolution in 2002. He voted against the UN-supported (repeat: UN-supported) war resolution in 1991. He voted for the 2003 resolution supporting the US invasion of Iraq and commending the leadership of the president. He voted against the $87B Iraqi reconstruction fund. When Saddam Hussein was captured, he said that was what he voted to bring about. but then he also said that he had been misled (despite 8 years on the Senate Intelligence Committee). Each particular vote can be defended, but taken all together I do not think that they make a "clear" position.

I used to think that Clinton understood all the details of all policy positions, and sympathized with the important aims of proponents of all proposals. His choices were very close to the American center, except when he tried to support universal health care. He was an exceptionally effective communicator, and he supported just enough Republican ideas to keep the Republicans angry and off balance. Neither Bush nor Gore was in his league either as to mastery or communication. I just don't know about Kerry. He said that foreign leaders wanted him to win the election, but then said it's none of the voters' business who said that. What kind of sense does that make?

Posted by: MatthewRMarler at March 15, 2004 06:26 PM | PERMALINK

This recent election in Spain is going to be a very big issue in our election. And Mr. Drum's explanation courting the idea that Aznar's defeat means a win for Osama, only means the wingnut's snow job is going quite well.

Because to agree with this, means we are all obligated to vote for Bush because voting for Kerry would be an appeasement to Osama. Same thrust. The lies to go to war are non-relevant in their world. Just preception. Facts be gone.

I will not, cannot concede that Spain, which had a fair election and voted freely, is a bad thing. Bush just doesn't want America to have a free choice to get rid of him.

If Bush wins this argument that Spain appeased the terrorists, then Kerry is lost. But the new Spanish government will have to prove they are still fighting the terrorists -- the real ones, not the pseudo Iraq ones.

Posted by: Sammy at March 15, 2004 06:36 PM | PERMALINK

Another concern on Kerry is that the mysterious leaders he refers to probably include France. As you can see France and the US have rapidly diverting interests. France is helping China panic Taiwan. Which country does the Defense of Taiwan act obligate the US to protect in the event of a war?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ft/20040315/bs_ft/1078381774883

BEIJING (Reuters) - China and France will hold rare joint naval exercises off the mainland's eastern coast on Tuesday, just four days before Beijing's rival, Taiwan, holds presidential elections.

On WMD, read Clinton's transcript on why he bombed Iraq. He thinks WMD were there and Iraq was a threat.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 06:40 PM | PERMALINK

About the "Human Reliability Program", that sounds like the precursor to the Personal Reliability Program (PRP) that I was read into when I was an officer in the Navy in the 1980s. It had to do with nukes. If the plane or planes that Bush was flying didn't carry nukes, then he wouldn't necessarily have been part of the program.

Posted by: jpn of Shoreline at March 15, 2004 06:41 PM | PERMALINK

Sandals, postit

I don't deny that Bush said that Iraq had WMDs. I merely pointed out that Clinton and Kerry said so before Bush did.

We all pretty much said so, but only GWB headed the administration that manufactured the specific evidence to convince us to go to war.

think LBG and Tonkin Gulf, GWB and WMD.

Manufactured is perhaps too strong, turns out they were merely duped by Chalabi and his merry band. Only perhaps mind.

Each particular vote can be defended, but taken all together I do not think that they make a "clear" position.

WTF does that mean ?

I just don't know about Kerry. He said that foreign leaders wanted him to win the election, but then said it's none of the voters' business who said that. What kind of sense does that make?

Oh, he's just trying to keep his options open with the 'French hatters'.

If you truly want to find out more about Kerry go to his election website they have tons of information and they have a blog which is open to anyone who registers. It's quite unlike GWB's site, you are welcome to ask questions, debate people and you can even contact the campaign with questions about Kerry.

Try it you might like it.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 06:46 PM | PERMALINK

Actually I have thought of one way that you could vote for Kerry if an attack happened and not allow the attack to bias your view. Keep a log write down who you are going to vote for everyday. On the day an attack happens. Look at your opinion the day before and stick with it.

A second way is to lobby Kerry to make a statement ,"rejecting appeasement and promising retaliation if an attack happened or was intercepted in the lead to elections". If he makes such a statement he removes the motive from Al-Qaeda to plan an attack.

Posted by: Researcher at March 15, 2004 06:49 PM | PERMALINK

I love the nuttiness of the posts claiming that there's something wrong with Kerry being liked beyond our borders.

Why don't they assert that Bush is hated around the world and that that is a good thing?

Posted by: bad Jim at March 15, 2004 06:49 PM | PERMALINK

Researcher

Are you on the same planet as the rest of us ?

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 06:51 PM | PERMALINK

Spain - Al Quaeda did not target Spain to swing the election. They did it for revenge against El Cid. However, some of the wingnuts are right that AQ may now be emboldened by the election results. I will vote against Bush anyway, due to his incompetence in fighting terrorism.

National Guard - The Human Reliability program (HRP) sometimes known as the Personnel Reliability program (PRP) would not normally be used to screen fighter pilots in the late 60s and 70s. Good thing for Bush as he would have failed miserably due to his record.

Rumsfeld - What else would you expect from the misleader-meister?

Posted by: james at March 15, 2004 06:57 PM | PERMALINK

Re. this grumpy quote of Rumsfied w/Wolf Blitzer:

And I would just say the answer is yes, you asked this question at the outset, and I answered it yes, I think it was the right thing to do. I don't know how many resolutions one would want. There were 17 [UN resolutions]. Should you go to double it, to 34?

I suppose if you are one of those unfortunates whose American son or daughter got her face blown recently off in Iraq--, 34 might not seem like such a bad number.

My point (other than I can't stand the utterly detestable arrogance of rumsfield)?

The cost of modern warfare, and the cost of securing peace afterwards is so astronomical, that war should always be the absolute last path to walk.

Absolute.
Last.
Path.

Comprendes?

Damn these bastards and their so-called pre-emptive war.

And while we are at it: What the hell was pre-empted?

Posted by: -pea- at March 15, 2004 07:00 PM | PERMALINK

Researcher,

First, John Kerry didn't say he was supported by foreign leaders. (Even if he did, who cares) The pool reporter admitted he screwed up today when he went back and actually listened to his recording. From Drudge:

A BOSTON GLOBE reporter at the center of a growing controversy over comments made by John Kerry last week in Florida now claims he "screwed-up" -- and John Kerry never bragged how "foreign leaders" privately backed his presidential bid! "I mistranscribed a key word," explains Patrick Healy, a political reporter for the BOSTON GLOBE who covered the event in a pool capacity. "Listening to the audio recorder now, in the quiet of my house, I hear 'more leaders' and I am certain that 'more leaders' is what Senator Kerry said."

Second, I think Matthew Yglesias has a very insightful comment on the current right-wing election spin:

Even the hawkish Jacob Levy explains what you need to know about Spain and appeasement.

But of course logic has nothing to do with this. The right would like to set up the following argument: If there are no attacks between now and the election, then Bush has defended us from terror and deserves re-election; if there is an attack between now and the election, then voting for Kerry would be appeasement.

Spain is just the dry-run.

Whatever happens, it's win-win for the Bushies!

Posted by: emjaycue at March 15, 2004 07:06 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Al Qaeda certainly are on the forefront of political science, I must admit. Until this experiment was carried out, no one knew whether or not citizens would notice terrorist attacks and possibly be influenced by them. Elections were thought to be pure forces of nature, indifferent to violent death and to the wise or unwise conduct of public officials -- but now that we know people actually pay attention when shit happens, evil geniuses may try to make shit happen! Nothing will ever be the same!

Posted by: Eli at March 15, 2004 07:11 PM | PERMALINK

pea

And while we are at it: What the hell was pre-empted?

Well we pre-empted the need to negotiate with our allies, always a stressfull diversion from realpolitik.

We pre-empted the need for another Tonkin Gulf for all time.

And obviousl we pre-empted the need for a UN permission slip, never easy to get them signed in time for the war.

Posted by: postit at March 15, 2004 07:21 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

Do you realize how conservative the Spokesman-Review is? Has always been? Normally, I wouldn't believe a word I read in that rag (and I would have to be dead to be found reading it).

Kinda makes me wonder what the hell is going on here.

Posted by: bobbyp at March 15, 2004 08:10 PM | PERMALINK

"Actually I have thought of one way that you could vote for Kerry if an attack happened and not allow the attack to bias your view. Keep a log write down who you are going to vote for everyday. On the day an attack happens. Look at your opinion the day before and stick with it."

Are you looking for a reason to vote FOR Kerry?cause you sure sound like it.If you need further inducement I have plenty of reasons that you may not know anything about.

For instance Bush has so many chess peices on the table and they only want you to look at the pawns)which he is being successful at).When you do some research at scholars investigating the reasons and motivations behind the moves of this whitehouse you begin to sense a pattern.The talking points being reitterated here by the right are so rehearsed and replayed they become tiresome.

Look here to find out what your president is really up to and see if you approve. I know its off topic but it is very relevant in the reguards to the topic being discussed is one of those pawns that have no relevancy to whats really happening,

"Some people believe themselves insulated from all this because Ashcroft’s extreme measures have been targeted more heavily at foreigners and citizens of recent foreign origin — people with names like Yaser, Iyman, and Ali, whom native-born citizens with native-born parents could easily dismiss as being "them" rather than "us." Indeed, in an August 19, 2003, speech, Ashcroft defended the Patriot Act in part by asserting that most Americans feel safe from its reach. Under our system of laws, however, such confidence is misplaced. The Bill of Rights insists that all persons be treated not only fairly, but equally. This constitutional mandate is bolstered by the common-law notion that previous court decisions serve as precedents that determine the outcome of later cases presenting similar facts. The Supreme Court, in reviewing the three habeas corpus cases before it, may make distinctions between the rights of people held abroad versus within US territorial limits, or between citizens and noncitizens. But it’s pretty clear that these cases are linked in the court’s mind, and that whatever rights the court accords these prisoners will determine the rights of anyone else who ends up on the wrong side of a presidential decree."

Posted by: smalfish at March 15, 2004 08:11 PM | PERMALINK

My question: Are some of you people really as dumb as you sound, or do you collect a paycheck from the RNC?

Those two propositions are not mutually exclusive.

Posted by: Another Bruce at March 15, 2004 11:23 PM | PERMALINK

"Well, the U.N. inspectors were not in there. The U.N. inspectors were out."

Someone want to pass this on to the White House? Inspectors left March 18, bombing began March 20.

Inspectors’ Accomplishments in Iraq, 2002-2003
UN weapons inspectors began their work in Iraq November 27 [2002] and left March 18 [2003]. Iraq submitted a declaration containing information about its weapons of mass destruction December 7 [2002], as required by UN Security Council Resolution 1441. Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) conducted 237 inspections at 148 sites, including 27 sites not previously inspected. UNMOVIC inspectors conducted 731 inspections at 411 sites, including 88 sites not previously inspected. Of those inspections, 22 percent were related to chemical weapons, 28 percent to biological weapons, and 30 percent to missiles. The remaining 20 percent were multidisciplinary inspections, involving experts from each disarmament area.

UNMOVIC carried out a total of eight aerial surveillance and monitoring missions by helicopter and 16 reconnaissance missions using U-2 and Mirage aircraft between mid-February and mid-March 2003.

Inspectors also conducted 14 private interviews with Iraqi scientists, out of 54 that they had requested, between January and March 2003. Iraq provided 31 lists of Iraqi scientists to UNMOVIC, five of which contained the names of experts involved in the handling and destruction of prohibited weapons materials. Some of these scientists were involved in destroying anthrax—one of the most important outstanding disarmament issues—but inspectors were withdrawn before those scientists could be interviewed.

Posted by: Susie Dow at March 16, 2004 02:19 AM | PERMALINK

The "Human Reliability Program" explanation for Bush's desertion actually fits the facts quite nicely.

(and Bush's military records indicate that he did desert the Air Force Reserve, and was aided and abetted by cronies and family friends with the Champagne unit in the Texas Air National Guard.)

The HRP theory allows a more "benign" interpretation of what happened in 1972-73. Consider this scenario....

In april 1972, TANG begins "pre-sceening" its pilots for HRP, and find that Bush (and James Bath?) have the kind of histories and characteristics that would exclude them from continuing to fly. TANG officials might think this was especially unfair, given that Bush was one of their best pilots, and did not want remove Bush from flight status with the label of "unreliable". So they try and help Bush get out of the Air Force Reserve as gracefully as possible.

Bush and his TANG cronies ran roughshod over the regulations and policies of the Air Force at the time in order to accomplish this, but it was done for "understandable" reasons.

The HRP explanation also tells us why Bush would be so adamant about lying about his service. Imagine the political implications of revealing that Bush "chose" to stop flying because he was going to be grounded for being insufficiently reliable to pilot planes that MIGHT at some point be used to carry nukes. Who is going to voter for someone like that to control America's entire nuclear arsenal?

Posted by: paul lukasiak at March 16, 2004 02:48 AM | PERMALINK

Susie drools: ""Someone want to pass this on to the White House? Inspectors left March 18, bombing began March 20."""
The inspectors were out in 1997 Susie, they weren't even allowed back in until 120,000 American troops were poised on the border...the troops leave...Saddam kicks the inspectors out....a big duhhhh

And just what was the point of the inspections Susie? What was their mission? Why hadn't they completed the mission after 12 years and 1.7 Million dead Iraqis? Hmm?

Posted by: keiser at March 16, 2004 04:29 AM | PERMALINK

Keiser, you might want to check why the inspectors were pulled out in the 90's. Then again, you probably don't.

Posted by: Barry at March 16, 2004 06:20 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian

But to commit to change your foreign policy, in precisely a way that Al Qaeda wants, immediately after your government is unexpectedly swept into power

ummm, they committed to withdrawing BEFORE the elections...

Posted by: Coriolanus at March 16, 2004 06:29 AM | PERMALINK

Bush has lied to you people and you love him for it.

A few quotes from your candidate:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real...-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

And my favorite:

"Where's the backbone of Russia, where's the backbone of France, where are they in expressing their condemnation of such clearly illegal activity?" he railed.

Kerry also praised the White House for giving the United Nations the brush-off.

"The administration is leading. The administration is making it clear that they don't believe that they even need the U.N. Security Council to sign off on a material breach because the finding of material breach was made by Mr. Butler." [source]

Posted by: Ron at March 16, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

In response to the HRP question. Pres Bush would not have these in his records if any of the following apply. 1) His unit was not tasked with delivery of nuclear weapons in any form (currently AF Reservists flying B-52s are not covered by this program, they are not tasked to deliver the weapons or train on them). 2) He transfered to a unit that was not tasked with the nuclear weapons (the old records are automatically shredded and if you come back you must go through the process over. Heck you must go through the process over even if you transfer from one unit to another on the same base!). 3) His unit was de-nuked during his stay. 4) And lastly, I believe the HRP (now called PRP BTW) records are shredded upon seperation as a rule. I have done it with guys who retired from my unit. Its SOP and not a coverup, etc.

As for my qualifications - I do this as an additional duty in my job.

Excellent posting lately!!

Posted by: buffpilot at March 16, 2004 06:52 AM | PERMALINK

buffpilot, that's an interesting post. Why is it that this HRP stuff automatically gets shredded, when it seems that little else about a guy's records meet that fate? On something as obviously important as the HRP program, you'd think that the govt would be doubly motivated to preserve the record. Wouldn't they want to know that a guy failed HRP once before if he somehow finds his way back into the system?

What are the sources for your numbered points?

Posted by: hueyplong at March 16, 2004 07:08 AM | PERMALINK

hueyplong,

You shred it to avoid having privacy act stuff in the public record. If you are ever permanently decertified, it does stay on your security paperwork (just a code letter, no explination, but it usually pretty obvious if you check the individuals medical records). You can't 'fail' and EVER get back in the program. Its an all-or-nothing proposition. You get decertified for LIFE. Otherwise you go through the normal screening each time. And once your done its shredded becuase of the privacy act (which in other forms existed then). As for the source its the regulation setting on my desk and 2 years doing this stuff...

BTW I live jsut down the street from your namesakes house. I thinnk its on the market. Cheers

Posted by: buffpilot at March 16, 2004 07:15 AM | PERMALINK

One more note. Guard and Reserve units are not armed with nuclear weapons, becuase of PRP issues with accountability. I know of no Guard/reserve unit armed with these weapons, or that ever have been. Its purely a active duty issue.

As for the missing records et al. Anyone who has ever worked in the military knows that records get lost, sometimes forever, all the time. When I moved down here they lost my flight check records. I even have a signed, dated checklist when I handed them to the records section. They are gone now and haven't been found in 4 years! The fact that this stuff has been lost for an LT 30 years ago is no surprise. I'm more surprised they could find as much as they did. Career officers keep copies of their own records but I didn't do that until I was a senior captain. I never even thought about it as an LT. And for GD/Reservists who are seperating,keeping anything, other than your honorable discharge papers, probably wasn't a big priority.

Posted by: buffpilot at March 16, 2004 08:04 AM | PERMALINK

At this point, I've become cynical enough to believe that Rumsfield spoke the way he did to actively mislead the American public. If the administration occasionally says something confusing, a large percentage of the American public will believe that we had to invade because we forced the inspectors out.

--Rick Taylor

Posted by: Rick Taylor at March 16, 2004 08:55 AM | PERMALINK

The F-102A did typically carry GAR-11 nuclear missiles--the only aircraft capable of doing so save for the F-106 which carried much more capable Genie missile. It was almost completely relegated to the ANG by 1970, and thus as Isham pointed out--and he is quite an authority on ADC/ADCOM, pilots there should have been subject to HRP screening. The ANG had taken the lead role in CONUS air defense by that time.

Posted by: sparks at March 16, 2004 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

Sparks,

I did not know that. It still comes down if Bush's specific unit was still docked (tasked) for that weapon and if they didn't regularly shred the stuff as he seperated for reasons I stated above. In any case, we are still getting into the trivial when arguing about records from 30 years ago. It is truly possible (and very likely) they don't exist due to no ones fault other than sloppy record keeping.

Posted by: buffpilot at March 16, 2004 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe we should put down our Diogenese lantern on the Bush military service and other, 'potential' lies.
"Well, the U.N. inspectors were not in there. The U.N. inspectors were out."

When read in context, this sounds like pure Rummy speak. The question was posed during discussion of troop build-up, and the war itself. and ready to go and why not give more time. It can be a case that Rummy was speaking purely factual, the inspectors were not there. True, but there is a reason why, we told them get out, or get bombed.

Besides, people do make dumb comments in public.

John Kerry telling a local (Miami) TV journalist "I'm pretty tough on Castro because I think he's running one of the last vestiges of a Stalinist secret police government in the world, and I voted for the Helms-Burton legislation to be tough on companies that deal with him."

Kerry's web site Voted NO on Strengthening of the trade embargo against Cuba. (Mar 1996))

So far his campaign has had 2 different responses. Although I do not like Kerry, I will accept his reason for the mistake.
the senator cast one of the 22 nays that day in '96 because he disagreed with some of the final technical aspects." "Kerry supported the legislation in its purer form and voted for it months earlier."

Posted by: Sinop85 at March 16, 2004 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

France is helping China panic Taiwan.

Just like the US did under this President when we sided with China when they told Taiwan they better not keep complaining about Chinese threats, and they especially better not vote for a measure that would do nothing but ask China to stop threatening them with violence?

So, where is the divergence in interests again?

Posted by: cmdicely at March 16, 2004 01:00 PM | PERMALINK

On Oct 31, 1998 The Iraq Liberation Act became public law 105-338 in the US.

On Oct. 31, 1998, Iraq shut down all inspection activity inside Iraq, stating that there could be no further cooperation with UNSCOM until three conditions were met: 1. Economic sanctions were to be lifted 2. UNSCOM was to be brought under the full control of the Security Council and 3. Richard Butler, who had headed UNSCOM, was to be removed from his position.

On Nov. 10, 1998, under instructions from the acting U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Butler ordered UNSCOM inspectors to evacuate Iraq, prompting speculation of an imminent U.S. military strike.

On Sunday Dec. 13, 1998, President Clinton gave the orders for a military strike against Iraq, Operation Desert Fox, a unilateral 72-hour aerial bombardment of Iraq conducted without the approval/consultation of the UN Security Council

The purpose of Operation Desert Fox: Saddam, not Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, was the target.

Posted by: Susie Dow at March 16, 2004 01:31 PM | PERMALINK

Susie Dow-

Check your facts. Here's the transcript of Clinton's speech.

"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military
capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons. "

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

Cmdicely-

Fleet exercises with your sworn enemy are significantly higher on the fear scale than diplomatic pressure. Think!

Emjaycue-

Check your facts. Kerry admits his position. The more leaders are foreign leaders. Read the drudge link you posted and look at the context. Read the latest headline.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3517066.stm

On the HRP thing-

This is pathetic. Bush could come up with any level of information and Kevin would still insist something was missing.

Kerry refuses to release his medical record and no one mentions a thing. What's he hiding? An exaggerated wound to get out of combat?

Everyone-

Analysis involves fact-checking comments you see posted (preferably against multiple sources). Not repeating someone's opinion.

Posted by: Researcher at March 16, 2004 01:56 PM | PERMALINK

You said to fact check. Did you check the targets list? Didn't think so.

Posted by: Susie Dow at March 16, 2004 02:35 PM | PERMALINK

Washington Post report of 1998 reported that contrary to Cliton claims, the 1998 bombing did target Husseins palaces and U.S. officials even confirmed that they tried to kill large numbers of the Special Republican Guard, which provides crucial support, protection and muscle for Saddam Hussein.

Secretary Cohen even admitted that only about 30 percent of 97 targets hit were either destroyed or severely damaged.
Targets included a oil refinery, a university, and the MInistry of Social affairs...

Target list shows not much WMD:
HIT IN BAGHDAD

Directorate of Military Intelligence

Special Republican Guard barracks

Republican Guard headquarters

TV station

Communications center

Air Defense Center

Special Security Organization

Baath Party headquarters

Intelligence Service

Al Karama and Al Kindi missile research and development facilities

Baghdad Museum of Natural History

Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs

Al Mustansiriya University

Looks more like leadership (Hussein) main target.

The end...

Posted by: keiser at March 16, 2004 05:07 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

I really don't think that many Spanish people see much of a connection between support for the Iraq war and strong anti-terrorist policies. And the fact that a lot of people in the US do is completely irrelevant, but seems to be shaping your thinking on this matter.

Posted by: lhj at March 17, 2004 07:51 AM | PERMALINK

The GAR-11 AKA AIM-26A had been completely phased out of service by 1971, because being a nuke it could not be used against low flying aircraft over US territory and there were better weapons available.

Bush may or may not have been subject to the HRP, but if he was, it was probably not because his plane carried AIM-26s or other nukes.

Posted by: JP at March 17, 2004 08:46 AM | PERMALINK

ch2 wrote at March 15, 2004 04:17 PM:

OT,
How do I get to put sentences in italics ?

Something like this:

<b>ch2</b> wrote at March 15, 2004 04:17 PM:

<blockquote><i>OT,
How do I get to put sentences in italics ?</i></blockquote>

(Others answered earlier on <i></i> and <b></b>, but this adds <blockquote></blockquote> — which indents quoted text — and shows them used together.)

Posted by: Raven at March 17, 2004 08:01 PM | PERMALINK

The chronology suggests that Bush was NOT officially screened for HRP/PRP. The DOD directive that gaven guard units like TANG responsibility for "air defense" was not issued until May 1972, and the program itself did not begin until October 6th, 1972.

But given Bush's personal history, its easy to imagine how anyone familiar with HRP criteria would see that Bush would not pass. The question "what happened that made Bush decide to stop flying in mid-April, 1972" is probably the wrong one. The correct question is "What was about to happen that would make bush 'decide' to stop flying?"

As to the nuke issue, F102's were nuclear capable, and it wouldn't have made a great deal of sense for the government to wait until an emergency occurred when they would want to arm the F102s with nukes to do the required "reliability testing"...

Posted by: paul lukasiak at March 18, 2004 03:16 AM | PERMALINK

Make it your guiding principle to do your best for others and to be trustworthy in what you say. Do not accept as friend anyone who is not as good as you. When you make a mistake do not be afraid of mending your ways.

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