Newspaper Blogs

March 11, 2004

CHANGING THE TONE, BABY, CHANGING THE TONE....Question: who wrote this email and when did he write it?

This whole episode which has now gone on for three weeks has been pretty nightmarish. I'm perhaps no longer in grave danger of being fired, but there remains a strong likelihood that I will have to resign in protest of the withholding of important technical information from key policy makers for political reasons.

Answer: Richard Foster, the chief Medicare actuary, on June 26 of last year.

Ah, but why did Foster feel he was in danger of being fired? Because his estimate of the cost of the administration's "$400 billion" Medicare bill was $551 billion — an estimate that the administration now admits is correct. However, revealing it back then would have endangered their bill.

Is Foster telling the truth? Was he really pressured? Here's what the various actors say in Knight-Ridder's account of this story:

  • Cybele Bjorklund, Democratic staff director for the House Ways and Means health subcommittee, says: Foster's boss, Thomas Scully, admitted to her that he ordered Foster to withhold information.

  • Scully says: That's a bunch of crap, and Liz Fowler, the chief health lawyer for the Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee, can back him up.

  • Fowler fails to back him up: "He's a liar."

  • Tommy Thompson, Scully's boss, says: "I may have been derelict in allowing my administrator, Tom Scully, to have more control over it than I should have...."

And what does Foster have to say about all this? Nobody knows. "Health and Human Services Department officials turned down repeated requests to interview Foster."

These guys really do act like Vito Corleone, don't they? They knew their estimates were bogus five months before the bill was passed, they refused to let their chief actuary tell anyone about it, and one of their stooges basically told him to either shut up or sleep with the fishes. Then, a mere few weeks after the bill is passed, they fess up to the higher cost and pretend they didn't know about it before.

Are these guys a piece of work or what?

Posted by Kevin Drum at March 11, 2004 07:43 PM | TrackBack


Crooked liars, anyone?

Posted by: Don Juan at March 11, 2004 07:45 PM | PERMALINK

"Requests to interview Fowler were met by HHS spokesman Abe Vigoda, who had a bloody actuarial table wrapped inside of a larger actuarial table. 'It's Cheney's code', he explained, 'it means that Fowler sleeps in the subterranean bunker tonight.'"

Posted by: norbizness at March 11, 2004 07:48 PM | PERMALINK

Come on...I mean, who really cares about prescription drug costs or anything like that. Just keep those seniors quiet so the Chimp can get elected for a change.

Seniors don't vote or anything.

I have yet to meet a senior who is going to vote for Bush, bar one, who recently told us that while she didn't have a problem with gays marrying, she didn't like white people marrying black people. She's going to vote Bush.

Go figure, eh?

Posted by: Monkey at March 11, 2004 07:48 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sure the estimates for the misleading advertising campaign were correct

Posted by: ann at March 11, 2004 07:49 PM | PERMALINK

These guys give new meaning to the old saw:

Q: How can you tell Bush is lying?

A: His lips are moving.

Posted by: Binky at March 11, 2004 07:51 PM | PERMALINK

How dare you say Republicans are crooked liars! You apologize to the American People right this minute!

Posted by: grytpype at March 11, 2004 07:57 PM | PERMALINK

Begs a repeat don't you agree ?

I am not one of those looking forward to GWB being defeated in november.

That won't satisfy me. I wanna hear again those magic words "I will resign the presidency effective noon tomorrow...". Followed by the wave to the crowd, the helicopter lifting off from the rose garden, the whole nine yards.

Nothing less will sufice, Rove doing a perpwalk in leg irons would be nice too but I'm not holding out for that, I can be reasonable you understand.

Thought you might !

Posted by: postit at March 11, 2004 07:59 PM | PERMALINK

People, people. Calling them crooked liars is inappropriate. It offends Hasert - causes "umbrage"

However... "Major League A**shole" is perfectly acceptible.

You know - I'd believe that too - if it wasn't the Bush adminstration saying so - since you can't believe anything they say....

I simply love the exchange
"Scully: That's a bunch of crap, and Liz Fowler, the chief health lawyer for the Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee, can back him up.
Fowler: "He's a liar."

and it's just that blunt in the full article.

drip drip drip

Posted by: throCKmortEn at March 11, 2004 08:02 PM | PERMALINK

Had Kennedy's original prescription concept passed unchanged, the cost would also have been over $500 billion. And that was the estimate back in 2002 when the Republican plan was clocking in at $350 billion.

It is mindboggling to assume that if the Democrats were in control, that the government would be spending less on health care. Kennedy has made no secret that he considers every new health bill to be one more irrevocable step on the road to socialized medicine.

Frankly, I think the entire prescription drug benefit was unnecessary. Over 3/4 of seniors already had coverage. This is going to cost a hell of a lot more than $530 billion before this is over as private insurance bails out and drug prices go through the roof. Passing a massive new entitlement under the current economic conditions was insane, and both Democrats and Republicans share the blame.

Posted by: tbrosz at March 11, 2004 08:02 PM | PERMALINK

Do the Right Wing followers of Bush have any honor? Or are they willing to rationalize an infinite amount of lying as long as Bush doesn't get blown in the White House?

Posted by: Carl Nyberg at March 11, 2004 08:03 PM | PERMALINK

Not Vito Corleone, or even Michele, but Fredo.

Posted by: M. Tullius at March 11, 2004 08:08 PM | PERMALINK

Do the Right Wing followers of Bush have any honor? Or are they willing to rationalize an infinite amount of lying as long as Bush doesn't get blown in the White House?

Are you still asking yourself this question? Read all of tbrosz's absurd rationalizations for the answer.

Posted by: Old Hat at March 11, 2004 08:10 PM | PERMALINK

C. Nyberg, answer to #1, no. answer to #2, yes.

shorter tbrosz: "look yonder!"

grytpype's got a point. How dare we question the Dear Leader?

Hey Al, what say you?

Posted by: Binky at March 11, 2004 08:10 PM | PERMALINK

I gotta admit, yours is the most entertaining post about this little snippet.

They knew their estimates were bogus five months before the bill was passed, they refused to let their chief actuary tell anyone about it, and one of their stooges basically told him to either shut up or sleep with the fishes.

Side-lit figure, face invisible in the shade of his hat brim, swaggering in wide-shouldered double-breasted pinstripe, lights a fat cigar and exhales a huge cloud of smoke.

"Now look, eh, Richard ... you don't mind I call you Richard, right? Okay, Richard, see, Don Giorgio has, eh, certain relations he is expected to maintain in this, eh, Medi-whatchallit thing. And this four hunnerd, five hunnerd, whatever hunnered, this is causing him, eh, problems in these relations here we're talking about, you understand?"

Posted by: bleh at March 11, 2004 08:18 PM | PERMALINK

Do the Right Wing followers of Bush have any honor? Or are they willing to rationalize an infinite amount of lying as long as Bush doesn't get blown in the White House?

Bush getting blown in the WH would shed bad light on their abstinence intitatives. We can't have their faith-based funding cut off, now can we?


Posted by: Dano at March 11, 2004 08:18 PM | PERMALINK

Heres the scary part.
Bush can't seem to get out of his own way right now, and his own people are starting to see that the game may be up. Every step is a blunder. Deficits to the moon.
Their new campaign ads are like pathetic parodies, except they cost millions, and all the money in the war chest might not be enough.

What will Rove & Co. resort to between now and November to stay in the White House?

Posted by: mojo at March 11, 2004 08:21 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz opines "It is mindboggling to assume that if the Democrats were in control, that the government would be spending less on health care."

What's truly mindboggling is that the Bush apologists think they can boggle anyone's mind with misdirection. Regardless of what the eventual cost might be projected as, an honest discussion wasn't allowed because the administration lied about their own projections. They lied before the vote to get the numbers for passage and they lied afterwards when they feigned surprise about "updated" projections.

This was short circuiting the legislative process and is another example of the low regard this administration has for governance through representation.

Why does Bush hate America so much?

Posted by: jeff Boatright at March 11, 2004 08:23 PM | PERMALINK

It you thought the costs were too high, did you ask your representatives to vote against this legislation? I did, and I am a Republican. How many Dems voted for this legislation. A whole lot I imagine.
How many of you were crying for enhanced Medicare benefits several yearsd ago? Well you have them now.

Posted by: Meatss at March 11, 2004 08:23 PM | PERMALINK

They're lying, cheating, corrupt filthy thieving orcses.

That's what "or what" is all about.

Posted by: four legs good at March 11, 2004 08:25 PM | PERMALINK

What's truly mindboggling...

I must admit they're easily boggled.

Posted by: four legs good at March 11, 2004 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

Meatss misses the point entirely, once again.

Bush lied about the cost of the Medicare bill and threatened to fire anyone who told the truth until it was passed.

How many extra chromosomes do you have rattling around in your DNA, Meatss?

Posted by: Old Hat at March 11, 2004 08:28 PM | PERMALINK

What's Foster doing causing trouble again? I thought Hillary shot him in the park a few years ago.

Posted by: just yolking at March 11, 2004 08:32 PM | PERMALINK

How did it happen that Knight-Ridder is doing ALL the good reporting in the country?

Posted by: Jim Henley at March 11, 2004 08:33 PM | PERMALINK

The bill is bad legislation for many reasons....


The topic on hand is the flat out lying to the American public, specifically members of Congress, who were hesistant to vote for the bill BECAUSE of it's cost.

They have no shame.

Fredo Corleone, leader of the free world! Who woulda' thunk it?

Posted by: def rimjob at March 11, 2004 08:34 PM | PERMALINK

"It you thought the costs were too high, did you ask your representatives to vote against this legislation? I did, and I am a Republican. How many Dems voted for this legislation."

OK BOZO you must live on the far side of the moon!First off IF you actually did call your rep,He obviously didnt pay any attention to you(rightly so).And two I live in a gerrymandered part of the world where I live with taxation without representation,therefore I wouldnt matter if I called my congressman because like Bush he doesnt give two shits what I or anybody else thinks.

If you can live with the amount of lying and deception and skulldrudgery this president offers up I think we can offer you some personal time with the man.....IN LEVENWORTH!

How can we live with this any longer?Would it be too much to ask for a trial here?What will it take to impeach this group of crroks and liars.If we dont hear about this on the news tommorow we need to start the revolt and soon.Guns and butter are something bush thinks he knows,he needs to see them up close!

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 08:38 PM | PERMALINK

How did it happen that Knight-Ridder is doing ALL the good reporting in the country?

All I know is I used to want to go to law school but now I want to go to journalism school and work for Knight-Ridder.

Journalism in this country, except for Dana Milbank, Sy Hersh and the good folks at Knight-Ridder is a fucking joke, and I'm going to help change that.

Posted by: Old Hat at March 11, 2004 08:39 PM | PERMALINK

tbroz repeats the usual talking points just like most robo-republicans. But consider this, even if the dem health plan would have "cost more" (funny, this talk suddendly stops when it comes to law enforcement and defense) we certainly would not have imperiled it and the economic health of the nation as a whole by giving the whole enchilada to the rich.

The thrust of the bush policies will bring disaster to this nation. DISASTER. Reagan was brought up short just in time, and worker bees bore the brunt of bringing fiscal sanity to this nation. It took twenty years. And for what? A republican mess of pottage. Now the fat cats get a tax break, and we get a whiff of "cuts" in benefits.

A promise is on the verge of being broken. This is expropriation (thanks, Max).

Crooks? The term is too kind by several orders of magnitude. Kerry should apologize to America's working and middle class for being too kind to these clowns.

Posted by: bobbyp at March 11, 2004 08:40 PM | PERMALINK

Now the fat cats get a tax break, and we get a whiff of "cuts" in benefits.

That's right. The rich get tax cuts to the tune of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and all the poor and middle class get are cuts in public education, cuts in public libraries, cuts in first reponder budgets, cuts in public transportation, road work, overtime pay...

West Contra Costa County Unified School District just cut every school library and every school sport. It's like living in Soviet Russia with these kleptocrats in charge.

Posted by: Old Hat at March 11, 2004 08:46 PM | PERMALINK

...And I mean cut, as in gone.

But George Porgie doesn't care because he "doesn't understand how the poor think."

Posted by: Old Hat at March 11, 2004 08:47 PM | PERMALINK

"I'm the commander - see, I don't need to explain - I don't need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

- George W. Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 08:50 PM | PERMALINK

Question, who wrote this e-mail:

"This whole thing about not kicking someone when they are down is BS -- Not only do you kick him -- you kick him until he passes out -- then beat him over the head with a baseball bat -- then roll him up in an old rug -- and throw him off a cliff into the pound[ing] surf below!!!!!"

- Former DeLay spokesman Mike Scanlon, who has been implicated in the Indian extortion probe, discussing the Clinton impeachment in an e-mail that got leaked. Roll Call 9/14/2000

Do you hear the love. No wonder DeLay is upset that Kerry would not apologize for calling the GOP machine a bunch of lying thugs. They can't roll him up in that rug if he won't lay down for them.

Posted by: obe at March 11, 2004 08:53 PM | PERMALINK

Hell, the Democratic plan would at least have allowed the federal government to negotiate lower prices with the drug companies, something that is explicitly prohibited under this new plan.

Posted by: PaulB at March 11, 2004 08:55 PM | PERMALINK

"Hell, the Democratic plan would at least have allowed the federal government to negotiate lower prices with the drug companies, something that is explicitly prohibited under this new plan."

You might be right but...

THis is all bullshit because bush put this bill thru to throw us a bone and thats all.Now it comes out he wanted it passed at all costs.doesnt that make anyone wonder why?Of course those who think and have some inteligence already know.

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 08:59 PM | PERMALINK

And didn't I read somewhere that the plan calls for paying private HMOs something like 7% more for the same coverage that the public plan provides?

Posted by: PaulB at March 11, 2004 08:59 PM | PERMALINK

"Journalism in this country, except for Dana Milbank, Sy Hersh and the good folks at Knight-Ridder is a fucking joke, and I'm going to help change that."

I wish you luck, OH, I really do. It's a hell of a battle, though. For all the blathering about liberal media or conservative media, most of the mainstream media is about money. And that means not pissing off your advertisers and not being controversial (unless, of course you're fake media like the Boston Herald, NY Post, or Faux Nuisance Channel, in which case controversial is what your readers/viewers and advertisers expect and require).

Posted by: Ted at March 11, 2004 09:01 PM | PERMALINK

Smalfish, that was never in doubt. In fact, the Bush administration never specified precisely what plan they wanted. They just told the Republicans in Congress to pass a plan, any plan, so that Bush would have an election issue to run on and so that Democrats would not have an issue to use against him.

Of course, the plan is so badly flawed that the Democrats do, in fact, have some ammunition, but it's a bit tougher to fit this issue into sound bites, so from that standpoint, Bush succeeded. The fact that the plan gives huge amounts of money to insurance companies and drug companies is just icing on the cake.

Posted by: PaulB at March 11, 2004 09:03 PM | PERMALINK

"And didn't I read somewhere that the plan calls for paying private HMOs something like 7% more for the same coverage that the public plan provides?"

Trent Lott's family owns Hospital corporation of america.

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 09:03 PM | PERMALINK

The wheels are coming off. The rats are jumping ship. Anyone with a shred of integrity is blowing the whistle on this bunch of crooked liars. BushCo is now in seige. Thank God for Howard Dean, for making it cool to call a spade a spade. And thank God for John Kerry, for finding the Democratic backbone that has been MIA over the last 4 years. The truth shall set us free ...

Posted by: Bassfish at March 11, 2004 09:03 PM | PERMALINK

Nah, I don't think it's Trent Lott who owns HCA. It's Frist and his family.

Posted by: CJ at March 11, 2004 09:08 PM | PERMALINK

I will never forgive Gore. It was there, waiting for him. And he blew it. Him and Nader. Thanks a lot, guys.


Posted by: lost in rhetoric at March 11, 2004 09:09 PM | PERMALINK

I think it was Howard Dean who re-discovered the backbone of the Democratic party. I don't think Kerry is all that exciting--another guy owned by corporate donors. Less of two evils and ABB, so he gets my vote.

Posted by: CJ at March 11, 2004 09:11 PM | PERMALINK

"For all the blathering about liberal media or conservative media, most of the mainstream media is about money"

Truth spoken here AN excellent site to know who owns what in the media.An eye opening page that exposes the myth of "liberal" media.

That being said,Will the media report this story??That my friends IS the question.If it doesnt we are sunk and might as well move to tahiti or mexico,whichever is easier to get to.If the media doent run this story bush wins hands down all the way to the bank.

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 09:12 PM | PERMALINK

Richard Clarke's book is coming out March 22.

I believe this is the one with details of the August 6th 2001 Bush briefing.

Posted by: aReader at March 11, 2004 09:14 PM | PERMALINK

"Nah, I don't think it's Trent Lott who owns HCA. It's Frist and his family."

Your right I got my criminals mixed up,Tho thats makes my point that much more pertinant.

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 09:14 PM | PERMALINK


The Dems say one thing, the Republ;icans say soemthing different, and we have an email supposedly from someone who's not talking. Big deal. There's nothing there.

Posted by: al at March 11, 2004 09:21 PM | PERMALINK

GWB's view of the world:
Offshoring of jobs & NAFTA => higher corporate profits => good.
Seniors buying prescription drugs from Canada => lower corporate profits => evil.

Oh, that's right, it's not about money, it's because the FDA thinks the Canadian drugs might not be safe for us. Right.

Posted by: CJ at March 11, 2004 09:31 PM | PERMALINK

Once again we see a pattern of behavior similar to the young Bush, spoiled rich kid. First he behaves badly, arrogantly and then when he's caught he lies about it and tries to bluff his way out of trouble. After he's caught he's unrepentant and always has a "get out of jail free" card handed to him by his family conections (not a mafia reference). Then he just goes on with new endeavors the same as always.

This time he's revealed 15 ways from Sunday and there's no family connections which can help.

The only question is whether it's limited to losing the election or if it goes further. That's really been up to Bush, but maybe he's already stepped over the line. I hate to see another case as nasty as Nixon's was, but Bush seems almost to be "asking for it". The guy knows no limits and needs a good spanking.

Posted by: MarkH at March 11, 2004 09:34 PM | PERMALINK

Crookery, and the Crooked Crooks Who Perpetrate It.

Posted by: AuthorAuthor at March 11, 2004 09:34 PM | PERMALINK

"It is a very complex and difficult matter to predict," McClellan said. "Now the legislation has passed, and we made our best estimate based on the latest economic data available."

Scott McClellan 1/30/04

Actually, this is a pretty classic transcript in general.

Posted by: space at March 11, 2004 09:35 PM | PERMALINK

Bush think

Social security = evil
Deficits = dont matter
Economy = never heard of it
War = love it
Homosexual = death penalty
Hide the truth = good news

What else can you say about such a swell guy?

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 09:36 PM | PERMALINK

Even on CNBC financail reports today, which I seldom view, an analyst was saying something like "the markets are beginning to prepare for the possibility of a new administration next year" (or words to that effect)

Posted by: aReader at March 11, 2004 09:42 PM | PERMALINK

Oh good, Al showed up to weigh in and, true to form, denies the obvious.

There is a sense of comfort in having this guy around. Like an old shoe.

Posted by: Binky at March 11, 2004 09:56 PM | PERMALINK

Social security = evil I didnt know how evil.

Posted by: smalfish at March 11, 2004 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

Oh good, Al showed up to weigh in and, true to form, denies the obvious.

Ayup, good ol' Al-Dubya. The dogged opposition.

Posted by: dryListener at March 11, 2004 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

There's no question about it, but we need MORE blowjobs and FEWER preemptive wars.

That would be my campaign platform. And I'd WIN. Well, at least I'd make money selling t-shirts with my platform.

Posted by: Dumbo at March 11, 2004 10:13 PM | PERMALINK

There's nothing there.

If you're talking about the Medicare plan, you are right Al, its money for nothing.

Posted by: Another Bruce at March 11, 2004 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

""Crooked liars anyone"""

Funny you should be discussing crooked liars when the news is filled with real stories about crooked liars like John Kerry.

Kerry Says Credibility Not Damaged By Former Comrade's Lie
By Melanie Hunter Deputy Managing Editor
March 11, 2004

( - Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry Thursday said his credibility was not affected by his previous association with a man who fabricated his military credentials while serving as executive director of a prominent anti-war group that included Kerry.

Al Hubbard appeared with Kerry in 1971 on NBC's Meet the Press , was introduced as a former decorated Air Force captain who had spent two years in Vietnam and was wounded in the process. In reality, Hubbard had lied about his military rank and other issues, as later investigations revealed.

At the time, Kerry, Hubbard and other members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War were alleging that U.S. troops were committing widespread atrocities against Vietnamese civilians. Kerry even testified about the issue before a congressional committee around the same time he and Hubbard appeared on Meet the Press .

Hubbard had done more than just exaggerate his rank in the Air Force. CBS News reporter William Overend, a writer for the network's anchorman Walter Cronkite in 1971, investigated Hubbard's war claims even further and discovered that there was no record of Hubbard having ever served in Vietnam. In addition, Hubbard was not shot down as he alleged and did not receive a Purple Heart for injuries sustained during battle.

Why did Kerry push these lies, not get the Vietcong to win the war..that's why...and it is sickening.

Posted by: keiser at March 12, 2004 01:39 AM | PERMALINK

So let me get this straight, those heartless, cruel republicans actually didn't want to give seniors 400 Billion in drug benefits, but actually 550 billion in drug benefits.

Ohhhh, good one..Kerry can run on Bush's secret plan to help low income seniors afford prescription drugs...THAT'S A WINNER.

Do you people at all see how silly you are and how your hatred of Republicans and Bush has twisted your feeble troll minds?

Posted by: keiser at March 12, 2004 01:48 AM | PERMALINK

No, the Republicans wanted to give medical companies $550 billion in drug benefits. Ahem.

Or more.

That no price-negotiation rule is transparent bullshit.

Posted by: Sandals at March 12, 2004 03:50 AM | PERMALINK

"What will Rove & Co. resort to between now and November to stay in the White House?"

This question is the main reason I have not had a full night of sleep in the last year.

Scared? Yes, yes I am.

Posted by: Mark_W at March 12, 2004 04:33 AM | PERMALINK

Let's get some secret group going, oh say that group that ran the Dean/Osama ads with Toricelli leading the charge, to run ads of Bush/Fredo. The R's will scream, but it just might work.

Posted by: Sammy at March 12, 2004 05:52 AM | PERMALINK

Did you actually read the Prescription Drug Benefit bill? I would suggest that a large portion of the high (and ever higher) costs of the bill does not actually go to directly toward Seniors. Think about the economics of it. The government is explicitly forbidden to negotiate lower prices for drugs (they purchase a lot of them). PhRMA, Insurance Companies and HMOs will just be getting more and more of the total pie through high prices with no cost controls.

Posted by: --locus at March 12, 2004 06:21 AM | PERMALINK

Keiser is a true troll, Republican talking points are all he is capable of.

Ignore him.

Posted by: David Perlman at March 12, 2004 07:24 AM | PERMALINK

Let's face it, the GOP would nominate a steaming pile of horse shit for president if A) steaming piles of horse shit could talk and B)if they could be trained to say "cut taxes." If they could be trained to say "Amend the Constitution," then we'd probably see a move on the 22nd Amendment.

Posted by: Deek at March 12, 2004 07:40 AM | PERMALINK

Kerry was telling the truth with his "off the cuff" statement.....that's why the Repugs are son freaked.

I can't believe that this is the Government of the United States of America that is doing this c****p.

Posted by: jillian at March 12, 2004 08:01 AM | PERMALINK

What's next Democrats..are you going to have a meeting to decide whether to assassinate drug company CEOs????


By THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB Special to the Sun

The anti-war group that John Kerry was the principal spokesman for debated and voted on a plot to assassinate politicians who supported the Vietnam War.

Mr. Kerry denies being present at the November 12-15, 1971, meeting in Kansas City of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and says he quit the group before the meeting. But according to the current head of Missouri Veterans for Kerry, Randy Barnes, Mr. Kerry,who was then 27,was at the meeting, voted against the plot, and then orally resigned from the organization.

Mr. Barnes was present as part of the Kansas City host chapter for the 1971 meeting and recounted the incident in a phone interview with The New York Sun this week.

In addition to Mr. Barnes’s recollection placing Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, another Vietnam veteran who attended the meeting, Terry Du-Bose, said that Mr. Kerry was there.

There are at least two other independent corroborations that the antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of which Mr. Kerry was the most prominent national spokesman, considered assassinating American political leaders who favored the war.

Gerald Nicosia’s 2001 book “Home To War” reports that one of the key leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Scott Camil,“proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress,as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement.”The book reports on the Kansas City meeting at which Mr.Camil’s plan was debated and then voted down.


Posted by: keiser at March 12, 2004 08:41 AM | PERMALINK

You know, it's goddamn hard. Keiser trumps me every time. I am no longer the stupidest, most-hated troll. Shit.

I can't beat Keiser on my own, but I know someone who can. Does the name "LaRouche" mean anything to y'all?

Be very afraid. Pretty soon, Keiser is going to be looking sort of OK.

Posted by: al at March 12, 2004 08:41 AM | PERMALINK

A good illustration of why the economy isn't going to magically "recover". The Bush gang has built in double-digit price increases for years to come. In practical terms it's no different from giving 20% of your gross receipts to a gangster who comes around once a week to collect "protection" money.

Posted by: serial catowner at March 12, 2004 08:57 AM | PERMALINK

your hatred of Republicans and Bush has twisted your feeble troll minds?


Do you know what a troll is?

Posted by: az at March 12, 2004 09:06 AM | PERMALINK

I pointed out the deceit of this estimate a few days ago on here, and was sneeringly informed by one of the Bushie ass-kissers that my complaint was "with the CBO", not the Administration, since they were the ones who supposedly made the estimate. (Norman Rogers comes to mind, but I am not sure.)

Uhhh......."speaks with moral clarity"???????
"rock-solid character and integrity"????

This President and his party are daring to complain about being called liars and crooks?????

Can it get more obvious????????????

Up your ass, George W. Bush!!!!! Although, it seems it is already a bit crowded up there.

Posted by: marty at March 12, 2004 09:10 AM | PERMALINK

your hatred of Republicans and Bush has twisted your feeble troll minds? - Keiser

Keiser - Do you know what a troll is? - az

I'll bet he knows what a shill is.

Posted by: Thumb at March 12, 2004 09:22 AM | PERMALINK

They'll have to open up a ward at Walter Reed to deal with all the new cases of recto-cranial syndrome that are starting to appear, here and there.

Posted by: George Claredon at March 12, 2004 09:24 AM | PERMALINK


what were the lies Kerry made to congress while testifying about the Vietnam war? If you are referring to atrocities commited by american soldiers there, you should read the Toledo Blade story about Tiger force.

Posted by: Tom at March 12, 2004 09:35 AM | PERMALINK

Why should Keiser care about the facts?

He's just a troll. Fuck him.

Posted by: Monkey at March 12, 2004 03:21 PM | PERMALINK

"liars and crooks" is so...nixonian. i love it.
it's too kind, even. sociopaths, perhaps. it'll be interesting to read the future studies on just how this admin thought they could lie about anything and no one'd notice or care.

re: larouche: by all means, better trolls. my fingers hurt from keister's shouting in caps.

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Tom, stop attacking good and decent soldiers who protect your freedom. Don't go along with Kerry and smear good and decent servicemen and is pretty disgusting. Kerry claimed ALL our servicemen and women were guilty of atrocities and war crimes..he claimed all levels of Command knew about it and encouraged it..he claimed all soldiers were war criminals, committers of genocide etc. He did not single out one or two bad apples he CLAIMED WE WERE ALL get over your little fantasy.

Many of his so-called sources were proven to be liars and never even served in Vietnam. One of the leaders Kerry even took on Meet The Press (Al Hubbard) was later shown to have completely lied about even being in Vietnam.


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