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March 04, 2004

KERRY = HITLER....Ah, those cute 'n cuddly Republicans:

Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the re-election of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two.

...."If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election," Cole is quoted in this week's edition of the Yukon Review....Cole is quoted as asking what Hitler might have thought had Franklin Roosevelt not been re-elected in 1944.

I demand that all bloggers who condemned Corinne Brown's remarks last week also condemn Cole. Anything less than his immediate ouster from the House of Representatives and permanent exile from the Republican party just proves that all Republicans are bigots and hypocrites.

That's the right patter for this kind of thing, isn't it?

Posted by Kevin Drum at March 4, 2004 09:03 AM | TrackBack


Comments

Aren't the Republicans the ones who got all hyper about the Moveon.org submission that morphed Bush into Hitler?

Posted by: Carol at March 4, 2004 09:05 AM | PERMALINK

Osama's running? Talk about spoilers!

Posted by: Realish at March 4, 2004 09:06 AM | PERMALINK

You have that right...for the moment. Just give the Repugs enough time, though...and who knows.

Posted by: jillian at March 4, 2004 09:09 AM | PERMALINK

Do you think that Cole knew FDR was a Democrat?

Posted by: notanumber at March 4, 2004 09:10 AM | PERMALINK

What's the fuss? As a Democrat, I heartily support both Bin Ladenism and Hitlerism, so I see no problem with Cole's comments.

Posted by: Goldberg at March 4, 2004 09:11 AM | PERMALINK

I never knew that Thomas Dewey was such an admirer of Hitler in 1944, to say nothing of all of his Republican supporters.

You learn something new every day, I guess.

Posted by: Spinning Tops at March 4, 2004 09:12 AM | PERMALINK

No, Kevin, you're wrong. See, if Democrats weren't such haters, with their relentless persecution of poor old Bob Dole and Jack Kemp and all, and Democrats's hideous refusal to disband as a party, well, the Republicans would be just *fine* with them.

Posted by: lordwhorfin at March 4, 2004 09:17 AM | PERMALINK

Denounce what? Just keep 'em talking!

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan at March 4, 2004 09:22 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin, don't you know by Republicans rarely ever stick to their principles ? They are merely excuses for scoring political points against Democrats. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone doing anything about it.

The usual Bush groupies here will prove me right soon enough. Watch them defend him.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 09:24 AM | PERMALINK

But to be perfectly fair, the media must also hound Bush incessantly about whether he agrees with Cole's comments, and supports Cole, and if not why not, and what does he think should be done about it, and does his failure to condemn Cole mean that he really DOES support Cole, and why does he support him, and does Bush's failure to clearly and completely answer the question indicate that his campaign is in disarray, and if so does that mean there are deeper troubles at the White House, and might this somehow be linked to Cheney's rumored departure from the ticket, and does Cheney support Cole, and why doesn't Bush know, and is that a FURTHER sign of disarray at the White House, and and and...

Posted by: bleh at March 4, 2004 09:24 AM | PERMALINK

Before any of the wingnuts try to muck up the waters with "You dont see the difference between a nationwide ad and a congressman giving his personal opinion to some people somewhere?" ..

The ad was submitted by a citizen for an advertising contest.. it was ranked very low & didnt play anywhere at all.. but the wingnutters just couldnt stop jacking their jaws about it.

Posted by: sUbversive at March 4, 2004 09:25 AM | PERMALINK

How long before the Bush/Cheney 04 campaign unveil a campaign ad that contains Bin Laden and John Kerry within its 30 second length?

Guess it depends on how despearte they become.

Posted by: AJB at March 4, 2004 09:27 AM | PERMALINK

Carol:

My thought exactly re the moveon.org ad.

But, as we all know, Republicans are utter saints, and Demoncrats are utter....demons. Whatever Republicans say is fair and balanced truth (even when it isn't), whereas, if a Demoncrat says that breathing is necessary for life, well, one should hold one's breath until passing out, just to make sure, because a Demoncrat Can't Be Trusted!

(Did I get that right? I want to make sure I'm ready to infiltrate the Republican National Convention.)

Posted by: Clay Colwell at March 4, 2004 09:27 AM | PERMALINK

Well, if this is true, then surely W should be able to stay president at least as many times as FDR -- or until the war on terrorism is over. Sounds like we need yet another constitutional amendment.

Posted by: Jordan Barab at March 4, 2004 09:30 AM | PERMALINK

Gosh. Al and Charlie and Co. are usually right up here at the top, snarking away. Where are they now? Lunch break?

Posted by: Kenneth G. Cavness at March 4, 2004 09:31 AM | PERMALINK

Cole's remark is absolutely obnoxious.

However, he did not equate Kerry with Hitler, he equated Kerry supporters with appeasement.

Posted by: pshaw at March 4, 2004 09:32 AM | PERMALINK

I just called Cole's office in D.C. and told them I had heard the Congressman had said that a vote against Dubya was like supporting Hitler in WWII. They denied that's what the Congressman said. I cited the source of the quote, but they disavowed the comment. They didn't elaborate on where the mix-up came from, i.e. whether he was misquoted or paraphrased or what, but they did insist that he did not say what was attributed to him.

Posted by: Ken Dow at March 4, 2004 09:32 AM | PERMALINK

That's the right patter for this kind of thing, isn't it?

Technically, you should make a list of major conservative blogs, noting scornfully how each one either didn't mention the issue, or, if they did mention the issue, how it didn't meet your standards for a proper condemnation. It's usually good form to include one righty blog that did do a good job, proving that you aren't the rabid partisan around here. (Jim Henley is the usual go-to guy here, but Tacitus works in a pinch.) You should end your post with a statement along the lines of "I guess some people only care about political hate speech when it comes from the other side".

This should all be in the handbook.

Posted by: Andrew Northrup at March 4, 2004 09:33 AM | PERMALINK

This, along with the use of 9/11 footage in Bush's new commercials, is just disgusting and repulsive. The depths to which they are stooping is astounding, even for Republicans.

Posted by: Baaaa at March 4, 2004 09:34 AM | PERMALINK

Isn't it spelled Adolf? Maybe he meant a different Hitler.

Posted by: davids at March 4, 2004 09:34 AM | PERMALINK

The thing is
Osama and the boys would love to bush to get "re"elected..
i've been thinking for awhile now there won't be any major terrorist attacks on the US until after the election (unless it looks liked bush really needs some help).
bush is osama's man

Posted by: splash at March 4, 2004 09:34 AM | PERMALINK

Does this Cole asshole have an e-mail address?

Posted by: Old Hat at March 4, 2004 09:36 AM | PERMALINK

pshaw is right. In the interest of fairness the headline should be changed.

Posted by: koin at March 4, 2004 09:37 AM | PERMALINK

Re: Baaaa's comment @ 9:34


Bush's ads are a flop so far. check out the NY Daily News website:

www.nydailynews.com


***i confess i do not know how to link to the site.

Posted by: sean at March 4, 2004 09:38 AM | PERMALINK

Give this demagogue jerkoff a call: 202.225.6165

Posted by: Old Hat at March 4, 2004 09:38 AM | PERMALINK

Politicians like Cole are not connected to reality. So, how could he be aware of anything that happened as recently as the first half of the 20th century?

Talking about what such assholes say only gives legs to there empty rhetoric.

Cole, give me a fucking break with regard to America's current and most incompetent president who won by a rigged 5 to 4 vote!

Please excuse my Italian.

V-Man

Posted by: Vivaldi at March 4, 2004 09:40 AM | PERMALINK

George knows whats good for America! according to his commershul, Al and Charlie, did you laugh as much as me???o

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 09:43 AM | PERMALINK

Way to go Kevin, Josh, Atrios and Kos!

This is how it should ALWAYS work! Each of you has this as their top thread. Hopefully you 4 can coordinate with a few more blogs and get it even more synch'd.

With a combined readership in the millions, this is how we get messages across that SHOULD but are NOT covered by the SCLM!

Start the Democratic News Kerry-etsu! A monopoly of NEGATIVE, FACT(not faith) based coverage of the destruction and hatred being spread by the repugs.

Expose them based on what THEY say and do EVERY DAY.

Way to go guys!

Posted by: jack at March 4, 2004 09:43 AM | PERMALINK

Cole's remark is absolutely obnoxious.

However, he did not equate Kerry with Hitler, he equated Kerry supporters with appeasement.

And that's okay with you? that's equally obnoxious. Appeasement my ass.

Posted by: four legs good at March 4, 2004 09:47 AM | PERMALINK

implying that Osama=hitler is so offensive that immediate action must be taken?

Posted by: errrr at March 4, 2004 09:48 AM | PERMALINK

Interesting comments coming from a goose-stepper like Cole. And this, only a week after Secretary of Education Rod Paige called the 2.7 million member National Education Association "terrorist organization."

That's why Rod Paige is on the Perrspectives "Avenging Angel" page with a "2 angel" rating. Cole should be next:

http://www.perrspectives.com/features/features.htm

Rod Paige (February 2004)
The Secretary of Education referred to the 2.7 million member National Education Association (NEA), as a "terrorist organization." This is only his latest embarrassment, with the fraud regarding graduation rates in his home district of Houston hit 60 Minutes getting added to his being left behind in shaping "No Child Left Behind." As the Avenging Angel noted, there is no point in Bush firing him; no one notices that he's there anyway.

Posted by: Avenging Angel at March 4, 2004 09:50 AM | PERMALINK

No question, jack, reps are ascairt in their little home, aincha babies?

You will be owned.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 09:50 AM | PERMALINK

Actually I'm pretty sure Hitler would have been thrilled if Dewey had been elected. He would have seen it as a repudiation of one of his enemies. We were committed to the war at that point so I'm not sure it would have made any real difference except as a slight boost to German morale.

The article you reference says: "The newspaper says Cole claims if Bush loses his re-election bid, the enemies of the U-S will interpret it as a victory for bin Laden."

This is most probably true. This interpretation of the enemies of the US would be stupid, much like interpreting the fact that we did not destroy Saddam in 1991 as a sign of American weakness was wrong, but that doesn't mean that they are likely to get it right.

So. Invoking Hitler, definitely a cheap shot. Saying that if Bush loses, Osama wins. That is really bad.

If you want to make the probably true statement that our enemies would interpret a Bush defeat as a US loss of nerve on the War against Terrorism, you ought not do that by making stupid statements like "If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election". You could say that if Bush loses to Kerry, a candidate who has said we are not and ought not be in a 'war' against terrorism that it is likely to be seen as a vindication of US weakness by terrorists and potential recruits. This could be supported by the 'Arab Street' interpretation of Saddams 1991 defeat.

Also, if the quotes in the article are all there is, I don't think you can support "Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the re-election of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two."

What is this ad thing above? Did Brown run an ad with her racist statements?

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 4, 2004 09:52 AM | PERMALINK

errrr,

CONGRATS !

First wingnut to defend the statement.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 09:52 AM | PERMALINK

I might even impregnate your daughters.

Heh.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 09:53 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian,

"Kerry, a candidate who has said we are not and ought not be in a 'war' against terrorism"

Please provide a link of that quote.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

HEY!

I'm a Republican and though I have my biases, and yes I sometimes can put on airs, it doesn't mean that all Republicans are putz's and schmucks... I just wish those few like Cole would form their own party and call it something like the old German political party of 1920, the NDSAP.

Posted by: sheerahkahn at March 4, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

Shit, maybe I'll analize your son!

Skeery, huh?

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

Okay, what is really important here is that there seems to be a place called Yukon in Oklahoma. Who knew? And where did they get that name from? Time to go and look it up.

Posted by: Yukoner at March 4, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

Quit your fucking whining, my advise, shee.

Everyone is laughing at you.

:)

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 09:58 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin, this is beneath you. It's not Kerry=Hitler, it's Kerry=Tom Dewey, Bush=FDR, and bin Laden=Hitler. You can disagree with that - I'm sure you'd disagree with equating Bush with FDR - but since when is it bigotry to compare a man to Tom Dewey?

Posted by: Crank at March 4, 2004 10:04 AM | PERMALINK

I'm just spitballing here but I'd bet we hear a rather lame "remarks taken out of context" ploy before we ever hear an apology.

Posted by: catalexis at March 4, 2004 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Crank, is our second win-win (wingnut winner) guy !

Congrats for defending the indefensible.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

It's hitler=me, and do't you forget it.

Illeterate boneheads chap my ass.

Idiots get the 'stark fist of removal' in case you wondered.

Bleh!

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:10 AM | PERMALINK

Am I the only one having trouble finding this story in other venues?

Click on my name for a google news search of hitler +cole. Nothing relevant, that I see. Further, "Yukon Review"-- the putative source-- turns up with unrelated results. I've never even heard of the paper before today.

I'm throwing the BS flag, until there's more documentation... this should be spreading much, much, much more quickly if it's legit.

Posted by: Rovinski at March 4, 2004 10:12 AM | PERMALINK

Orange means link, story means source.

Work it out.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

Okay, we have a quote from a radio station that describes a quote from a newspaper in Yukon, Oklahoma, that talks about a speech given by Cole.

Compared to a comment made by Brown in a briefing on Capitol Hill.

To your credit, you were one of about five liberals who even noticed Brown's comment, much less condemned it.

Just out of curiosity, if he were asked, who do you think Osama would want to win the election? Or for that matter, the insurgents in Iraq, or the leaders of North Korea or Syria? How about Yasser Arafat? I sure as hell know who Saddam wishes had won in 2000.

These questions gets a lot of people to grind their teeth, but they can't or won't answer them.

Posted by: tbrosz at March 4, 2004 10:16 AM | PERMALINK

A vote for Bush is a vote for bin Laden. Bush told the F.B.I. to back off bin Laden and family. Bush protected the bin Ladens after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Posted by: chef at March 4, 2004 10:16 AM | PERMALINK

Gdb = 666.
Bush is the Beast.
Heh heh.

Posted by: Lupin at March 4, 2004 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

tbrosz is Hitler-comparison apologist #3:

Congrats !
No more prizes left.

Not one out of 3 of the usual right-wing characters here has managed to do what many of us have done before, by taking Brown to task:
show integrity.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

Gosh. Al and Charlie and Co. are usually right up here at the top, snarking away. Where are they now? Lunch break?

As a matter of fact...

In any case, Sebastian Holsclaw said most of what I would have said, so no need to repeat it. In summary, the title of the "news" report is highly misleading, and Kevin's title is EVEN WORSE.

I demand that all bloggers...

I demand that Kevin revise his title to make it accurate.

(Oh, and to continue Kevin's snarky comparison to Corrine Brown's comment... I recall that the standard-issue left-wing reply to call for her condemnation was: "But what she said was true!" So, accordingly, my reply to "Kerry=Hitler" is... "But what he said was true!" Heh.)

Posted by: Al at March 4, 2004 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

Go to http://www.moreenergy.com/oklahoma.html#news. It lists Yukon Review as a Weekly with a circulaion of 7,200. They don't appear to have URL.

Posted by: Reino at March 4, 2004 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

I, for one, am getting really tired of equating current times to WWII times.

During the WWII ear, 20-40 MILLION people died. Osama bin Laden wouldn't even have been a Seargent of note in Hitler's (or Stalin's, or Hirohito's) army.

But Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Posted by: Timothy Klein at March 4, 2004 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

Tbrosz, well let's see. Bush pulled troops out of Afghanistan and shifted our priorities in the "War on Terror" from hunting Osama and Al Qaeda to invading Iraq (a country with a secular, not an Islamic, government). Then he invaded Iraq and knocked of their government, but without any plan or committed resources for establishing a replacement government. Now, under pressure from the former, he's getting ready to cut and run from Iraq in the next year, most likely leaving the place teetering on the edge of chaos.

He's also got troops so heavily committed that we can't really even threaten to engage North Korea, allowing them to pretty much do what they want.

So I would say Bush has been pretty good for Osama, the Iraqi insurgants and North Korea, so I think they might just want him to stay. After all, its easier to compete against an incompetent than somebody that knows what he's doing.

Posted by: Doug-E-Fresh at March 4, 2004 10:30 AM | PERMALINK

"Would you see yourself as a war president?" Kerry replied with a ridiculous litany: "I'd see myself first of all as a jobs president, as a health care president, as an education president, and also an environmental president."
Slate

Supporting my point that Kerry doesn't think it is a war and suggesting that by lack of priority that it should not become one.

As far as this not getting much media play, neither did the Brown comment. So I guess we have media apathy in both cases. A media non-bias case!


Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 4, 2004 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

Just out of curiosity, if he were asked, who do you think Osama would want to win the election?

He would want Bush to win the election because he provides a ready-made foil.

Therefore, a vote for Bush is support for bin Laden.

Is that the viewpoint that you're trying very hard to legitimize? Or should we marginalize this sort of rhetoric?

Posted by: Spinning Tops at March 4, 2004 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

Reino-- Hrm.. well, thanks for the heads-up. So it's an obscure paper that doesn't even have a web presence... and they're the only ones that have picked up this story? Am I the only one who finds that incredibly dubious?

Posted by: Rovinski at March 4, 2004 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

Perhaps Bush=Neville Chamberlain, as Churchill wasn't Prime minister before May 1940.

Posted by: D at March 4, 2004 10:36 AM | PERMALINK

Ah Sebastian, quite a far stretch from your BS line, isn't it.

"Would you see yourself as a war president?" Kerry replied with: "I'd see myself first of all as a jobs president, as a health care president, as an education president, and also an environmental president."
DOES ?
"Kerry, a candidate who has said we are not and ought not be in a 'war' against terrorism"

As far as the Brown case, the issue was NOT media apathy but media partisanship: do YOU condemn it Cole's comments or excuse Cole's comments.

At the very least, I commend you for getting the link.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:37 AM | PERMALINK

oops,
that's not "DOES ?"

but "DOES NOT COME ANYWHERE NEAR"

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

It is abundantly clear that if given a choice, Osama would much prefer Sen. Heinz-Kerry to win the election. OBL could then come out of hiding in those caves, and resume his cowardly terrorist ways, without any fear that the US would even care. Saddam would tell you that as well.

Posted by: JD at March 4, 2004 10:41 AM | PERMALINK

I'd have to disagree with tbrosz: bush was in power when osama blew up our citizens--he obviously wasn't afraid of him then and there is no reason to think he's afraid of him now. And we know for a fact that bush stepped back all the anti-terrorist actions and plans the clinton regime wanted to put into place, that he threw away the big terrrorism report he was given, and that he refused funding for anti-terrorist initiatives in earlier versions of the budget in favor of star wars. No one who knows the facts can be satisfied with bush's conduct prior to 9-11. So what about after? Sebastian holsclaw is satisfied that this that this pampered c student with zero interest in anything outside texas and himself could have found a clarity, purpose, and political ideology on sept 11th. He's satisfied with the conduct of the war on terror. Well, I"m not. I think most of it could have been better done--and would have been better done--by Al Gore if he had been serving as our president on sept. 11th (rather than merely elected and then screwed out of the job). Actually, I believe I could have run a better war on terror than Bush has.

Bush has to be judged on the merits of what he has actually accomplished: doing angry "stuff" doesn't count unless it actually makes us safer in the long and short run.
aimai

Posted by: aimai at March 4, 2004 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

Can't you guys get it into your heads - this stuff only works one way! Democrats are held responsible for everything they say - even when they didn't say it (Republicans are great mind-readers). Republicans are not accountable for anything they say, no matter how repugnant. That's why a Democrat and a Republican can say the same thing but it's the Democrat who gets castigated. Those are the rules of the political game! If you don't want to play by these rules, you must, must leave the game to the grown-ups.

Posted by: Michael at March 4, 2004 10:43 AM | PERMALINK

JD,
that was brilliant satire.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:43 AM | PERMALINK

I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that Cole's comments should be condemned. However, in the context described, Brown's comments were exponentially worse, not even comparable.

Posted by: JD at March 4, 2004 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

The whole tone of Kerry's campaign has been to minimize the war on terror and to suggest that it really is just a policing function. I found the first quote I could come across. I stand by my assessment of his campaign so far.

And yes, the Cole quote suggests that many of Kerry's followers believe in appeasement. That is true (though they would of course call it 'negotiation'). He also suggests that bin Laden would be more heartened by a Kerry win than a Bush win. That is also true, though it could arguably be irrelevant.

Therefore Kevin's Kerry=Hitler headline is completely misleading.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 4, 2004 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

Al, I went to the Brown post.

I did a quick count in the comments section, and so far it's"

70% lefties condemn Brown's remarks with no reservations

vs. (drum roll)

0% righties condemn Cole's remarks with no reservations

No integrity indeed.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:47 AM | PERMALINK

I'm I the only one laughing?

:)

""Would you see yourself as a war president?" Kerry replied with a ridiculous litany: "I'd see myself first of all as a jobs president, as a health care president, as an education president, and also an environmental president."
Slate

Supporting my point that Kerry doesn't think it is a war and suggesting that by lack of priority that it should not become one."

Become one, become one, hmmm, I thought it was one already acc to GWB, maybye if we all believe in our red slipper it'll happen?

Afghanistan is a police action, Iraq is stupid, NOT A WAR, a QUAGMIRE, punkass.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:47 AM | PERMALINK

By the way, despite how many times the loony left says that algore was "elected", that will not change the fact that he, indeed, was not elected.

Posted by: JD at March 4, 2004 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

"Just out of curiosity, if he were asked, who do you think Osama would want to win the election? Or for that matter, the insurgents in Iraq, or the leaders of North Korea or Syria? How about Yasser Arafat? I sure as hell know who Saddam wishes had won in 2000.

These questions gets a lot of people to grind their teeth, but they can't or won't answer them."

I'll answer it.

Osama is a fanatical maniac and Saddam is a pathetic thug. I have no idea whom they "want" to win our elections and I don't care. I'm going to vote for the person whom I believe will protect our country and make the right decisions about its future - John Kerry.


Posted by: WVMCL at March 4, 2004 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Those who doubt that Cole's quote is real can call Cole's Washington office. They deny the Hitler comparison, but will cheerfully read you the bin Laden comment: "If George Bush loses this election, Osama bin Laden wins this election." Next sentence, which they regard as changing the context suficiently to make the previous sentence non-offensive, I'm not quite as certain I have exactly correct but is approximately: "That's how the enemies of this country will interpret it."

They say they'll have a statement, including the text, on his website "within the hour."

Posted by: Lis Carey at March 4, 2004 10:49 AM | PERMALINK

just saw JD's and Sebastian's comment...

JD condemns (almost without reservation)

Sebastian excuses comments

Final righty tally:
16% condemn without reservation (JD saved you from zero).

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:49 AM | PERMALINK

"How long before the Bush/Cheney 04 campaign unveil a campaign ad that contains Bin Laden and John Kerry within its 30 second length?"

Well, Kerry's or Gep's (or both) henchmen did not hesitate to do this against Dean in Iowa. Apparently, it had some effect.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Posted by: obe at March 4, 2004 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

Yukon, Oklahoma is the home of Garth Brooks. It is also the Czech capital of Oklahoma, founded in 1891. But why the name?
Okay, I'm the only one who cares and will stop now.

Posted by: Yukoner at March 4, 2004 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

I did a quick count in the comments section

Great!

Could you also count the number of commenters who said "but Brown's statement was true!" and compare it to the number of commenters who said "but Cole's statement was true!"?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Al at March 4, 2004 10:51 AM | PERMALINK

"I found the first quote I could come across. I stand by my assessment of his campaign so far."

Typical.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:51 AM | PERMALINK

I am a conservative, and I condemn Cole's remarks without reservation. I do, however, find it pretty incredible that 30% of the loony left found Brown's comments to be acceptable according to ch2's study. If Cole had said what Brown said, that number would likely be about 200%.

Posted by: JD at March 4, 2004 10:51 AM | PERMALINK

We need only to truth tell. Bush is the member of an evil suicide cult (Fundamental Christianity) that believes in a book (The Bible) wherein the final chapter (Revelations) the cult members are raptured up (Saved) from the total destruction of "civilization." [The same as Heaven's Gate culties beaming off to Hale Bop.] Or, in other words, Evil cultist Bush is at the controls of a world his cult sees decadent and in the need of the severest reform, as in, its total destruction so that a 1000 years of supply side Jesus will reign. BUSH=EVIL, an evil far far worse than Hitler could even imagine. GOTTERDAMNERUNG.

Posted by: Carswell at March 4, 2004 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

"Could you also count the number of commenters who said "but Brown's statement was true!" and compare it to the number of commenters who said "but Cole's statement was true!"?

Thanks in advance."

You do it, jenious, make your point and quit your whining.

Sheesh.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

If a vote for Kerry means supporting Hitler, shouldn't the Kerry Campaign be getting a fat check from the Kennebunkport right about now?

Posted by: Monkey at March 4, 2004 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian,

"The whole tone of Kerry's campaign has been to minimize the war on terror and to suggest that it really is just a policing function."
Where are the terrorists ? Finding them is indeed a lot like police work. Read this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/04/international/europe/04PHON.html?hp

Attacking a country because we don't do the work of tracking terrorists is pretty damn stupid. Kerry is absolutely right.

"I found the first quote I could come across."
It wasn't a quote ! Don't attribute a non-existent quote based on your impression to someone else, it's blatantly dishonest.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

"The whole tone of Kerry's campaign has been to minimize the war on terror and to suggest that it really is just a policing function."

That's the line that the rethugs are trying to paste to Kerry's forehead. It's another facet of the "Kerry says we need a permission slip from other countries to defend America." BS GWB spouted at the SOTU flop. Total fabrication and distortion.

If Kerry just wants cops to fight the WAR ON TERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", why is saying he will add 40,000 new troops to the Army? And why won't bush do the same given the how over-extended we are now, and vulnerable because of it. Heck, Bush won't even put money in his budget to fight the freakin war. And you paint Kerry as weak? Ha Ha!

Posted by: obe at March 4, 2004 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

"am a conservative, and I condemn Cole's remarks without reservation. I do, however, find it pretty incredible that 30% of the loony left found Brown's comments to be acceptable according to ch2's study. If Cole had said what Brown said, that number would likely be about 200%."

I'm hitler, man, I wanna kill them jews cause they have big noses and they rip people off, those jew got to go!

They all look the same to me.


Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 10:59 AM | PERMALINK

He also suggests that bin Laden would be more heartened by a Kerry win than a Bush win. That is also true, though it could arguably be irrelevant.

Is it true? Or is it something that you fervently wish to believe absent evidence?

How is your rhetoric any different from "Liberals are Traitors, Variation #3596"?

Posted by: Spinning Tops at March 4, 2004 11:01 AM | PERMALINK

Al, I did a quick survey of the first 12 posts or so, and I don't have the time to look more into it (I suggest you do it).

JD,
It wasn't 30% of said Brown was right. It was 30% who said either :she should apologize but (most common)... or she sort of has a point but misspoke (uncommon) or right on sistah (very rare).

200% is not possible nor 110% effort. If 100% is not good enough for you, don't use numbers.

Posted by: ch2 at March 4, 2004 11:05 AM | PERMALINK


Yukon, Oklahoma is the home of Garth Brooks. It is also the Czech capital of Oklahoma, founded in 1891. But why the name?

On a clear day yukon see forever.

Posted by: xfrosch at March 4, 2004 11:07 AM | PERMALINK

S. Holsclaw:

And yes, the Cole quote suggests that many of Kerry's followers believe in appeasement. That is true (though they would of course call it 'negotiation').

I don't know what "many of Kerry's followers" means. As for the MAJORITY of Democrats and left leaning bloggers, the following is by and large true:

1. They supported Afghanistan and opposed Iraq (at least in the manner it was conducted).

2. The criticized Bush for putting too few troops on the ground in Afghanistan not too many.

3. They opposed pulling special forces and language experts out of Afghanistan and placing them in Iraq.

4. They supported striking terrorist campsin Northern Iraq rather than Invading the entire country.

How this all amounts to appeasement of bin Laden is utterly beyond me. Conservatives seem to view that they have credibility on these issues as a matter of divine right. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no idea who bin Laden is pulling for in the 2004 election, but if Kerry had been President on 9/11 bin Laden wouldn't be around right now to have an opinion on anything.

Posted by: space at March 4, 2004 11:07 AM | PERMALINK

Still, kinda funny about that wall (ghetto) those Israelis are building.

Am I the only one laughing?

Nigger this, nigger that, I get tired of it, I'm a democrat, and my teeth are out, baby.

GWB, you are about to get OWNED, like your daddy.

Face it.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

I guess John Kerry didn't think the Vietnam war and 50,000 American dead soldiers was not so bad after all:
QUOTE JOHN KERRY "The Bush Administration has run the most inept, reckless, arrogant, and ideological foreign policy in the modern history of our country"""

Worse than Vietnam? Mr. Kerry.


And I really don't get kevins point here...
...."If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election," Cole is quoted in this week's edition of the Yukon Review....Cole is quoted as asking what Hitler might have thought had Franklin Roosevelt not been re-elected in 1944.

Its a very good question to ask...since Bushs opponents Nader and that other guy...what's his name, both believe the current war on terror should be called off in favor of a 'law enforcement and intelligence' action against terrorists.
I don't understand what you point is here at all.

There is no simlarity in the two.

Posted by: kesier at March 4, 2004 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

Hah, heh, um, ha?

Whine for me!

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 11:16 AM | PERMALINK

"""If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election," Cole is quoted in this week's edition of the Yukon Review....Cole is quoted as asking what Hitler might have thought had Franklin Roosevelt not been re-elected in 1944."""

Seriously...what do these quotes have to do with Kerry? And exactly how do they equate Kerry to Hitler..I don't see a relationship.

How do you come up with Kerry = Hitler from those comments..its beyond me....you may say Kerry = Dewey, but I don't think Roosevelt was running against Hitler...
Besides, this says much more about Bushs main ideological opponent Raplh Nader, than that third party guy Kerry.

Posted by: kesier at March 4, 2004 11:21 AM | PERMALINK

On a clear day yukon see forever.

Thank you Xfrosch!

Posted by: Yukoner at March 4, 2004 11:22 AM | PERMALINK

"Sen. Heinz-Kerry "


Can WE please stay away from this pathetic line of attack.Kerry's wife wanted nothing to do with this campaign and as far as I can tell she has stayed OUT of the limelight.To attack the Senator like this is just plain stupid and uncalled for.Not to mention pulling the debate away from the real meaning.But is'nt that what the conservatives are good at?

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Kerry=Hitler
Let me see if I have this right. Prescott Bush was the Nazi's banker. He was convicted of dealing with the enemy. His grandson got selected to the White House. If it worked for the Bushes why is it so wrong now? This crap could very easily backfire on them.

Posted by: lowell at March 4, 2004 11:24 AM | PERMALINK

Josh Marshall just posted an update to this story, a response from Cole's office about the published reports

Posted by: chakram88 at March 4, 2004 11:25 AM | PERMALINK

I met a homeless vet yesterday, he got out in 69, 37 months in, he say's "I will not be involved with the gov't, I don't go to the VA, I ask for nothing but a buscard, and they won't give me that."

Some similarities, perhaps, baby.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

Space spews a hairball:
FIRST: COLE DIDN'T MENTION KERRY AT ALL. What are you talking about??
1. There is no Afghanistan and Iraq, Al Queda operates across borders. Most leftists oposed Afghanistan
from the get go, they wanted sanctions..they march in the streets against the war.
2. Bush doesn't decide the number of troops, he sets the mission goals, the military decides the assets
necessary to accomplish it given other commitments. If you want a President to decide how many troops should be
used for a mission..you are a military idiot.
3. No one was pulled out of where they were necessary. Two different languages by the way.
4. Kerry voted for the war, Gephardt, Lieberman, Edwards voted for the war. Who opposed??
Striking terrorists in Iraq is an act of war?read your United Nations manual. The main terrorist camp in
Iraq was at Salman Pak, near Baghdad.

Posted by: keiser at March 4, 2004 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

""I do believe that if President Bush is not re-elected, the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that such a strong war time leader would be out of office"


In other words,voting for kerry is treason.AND we should be convicted if we do.The read between the lines is very obvious here.Danger lurks around the corner.

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

LOL, the ignorance level of the politician in question is astounding. Hitler had already lost the war in November, 1944, there wasn't much more he was going to do (Try to drive back the western front in the battle the bulge, then throw away tens of thousands of german lives). I guess he could claim that all those 50-60 year old men and 15-18 year old boys he had called up 2 weeks before the election really showed those cowardly americans that he really MEANT BUSINESS now! Maybe he could celebrate and launch a massive counter attack against the russians, only a few hundred miles away from berlin...

I don't blame Cole. I blame the people who voted for him. If it wasn't for them, Cole would just be saying stupid stuff to himself.

Anyway, here is his clarification :
"Washington DC- "The Yukon Review mischaracterized my remarks in the opening lead of their story published yesterday. However, they did accurately quote parts of my speech during the Canadian County Republican Convention held last Saturday."

"I do believe that if President Bush is not re-elected, the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that such a strong war time leader would be out of office. I never said and do not believe that a vote against President Bush is equivalent to a vote for Adolf Hitler. The patriotism of candidates and voters who oppose the President is not in question," Congressman Cole said.

During the Canadian County Convention, Congressman Cole did say the following:

"I promise you this, if George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election, it's that simple. It will be interpreted that way by enemies of the United States around the world."

"What do you think Hitler would have thought if Roosevelt would've lost the election in 1944? He would have thought American resolve was [weakening]."

"What would the confederacy have thought if Lincoln would have lost the election of 186[4]?"

Posted by: TMorgan at March 4, 2004 11:30 AM | PERMALINK

But the joke here is all in the "I demand" -- the blogger delusion that because you start a website, somebody died and made you king. It is like kids playing bank robber -- except these kids are way past the legal limit.

I demand that they all stop it. Otherwise, there's gonna be trouble! I'll start spanking!

Posted by: roger at March 4, 2004 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

"Most leftists oposed Afghanistan"

YOU MORON!!!

Where do you get your facts!?I for one was for the war in Afghanistan because I felt the Taliban was a very bad regime AND they were harboring a fugitive(hence the implication,DUMBASS).

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Tom Cole: "I do believe that if President Bush is not re-elected, the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that such a strong war time leader would be out of office"

My reply:
"I do believe that if President Bush is re-elected, the United States' ennemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that we are extremely dumb."

Posted by: Ack-Ack at March 4, 2004 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Wow, smallfaish..that's a huge leap in words from what he said to your blind, partisan interpetation.
Just where does he say a vote for Kerry is treasonous???? I could just as well interpret this to mean a vote for Kerry is stupid, small minded, trollish, disturbed, silly, anal retentive or will cause spinal warts.

Posted by: kesier at March 4, 2004 11:35 AM | PERMALINK

Keiser,

You're an idiot.

Cole clearly seems to think that the US would have lost WWII if it hadn't been for Roosevelt.

Good for him! Since most Republicans at the time thought he was the wrong man for the job.

But he's wrong about Bin Laden. Bin Laden probably wants Bush to win, since that will keep the US invading Arab lands for at least another 4 years.

I've thought from the first that invading Iraq and Afghanistan plays right into Bin Laden's hands. It makes us into an invader, when what we should be doing is strike teams, snatch and grab, etc.

Not occupying Iraq. That's crazy, and a sure fire way to create more terrorists.

Treating them like criminals keeps their profile low. The media doesn't care about criminal manhunts, but they do seem to notice when you spend 300 Billion dollars on a war it turns out you didn't need to fight.

Bush sneaking in and out of Baghdad told Bin Laden all he needed to know about Bush's bravery. That and his National Guard record, that is.

Posted by: Monkey at March 4, 2004 11:38 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe we should just forgo the election and get out all our guns and install a president now,as in Haiti,Iraq, and maybe even in Tibet too.I believe that in the course of current events ALL men ARE created EQUAL and we should be allowed to have a FAIR election,but when we have a partial press AND a party improperly elected to power we may not have FAIRNESS.Therefore maybe we SHOULD forgo the election.

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:39 AM | PERMALINK

If democrats are like Hitler, religious wingnuts are like Wahhabis

There you go: a vote for Bush is a vote for the Wahhabis!

Posted by: Serene Buddha at March 4, 2004 11:39 AM | PERMALINK

Just so long as I get to be hitler.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

Treason--The act of giving aid and comfort to the enemy.


"the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength"

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

President Bush once said in jest, "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just so long as I'm the dictator."

Posted by: smalfish at March 4, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

*raps table thrice*

Better trolls please!

Is this all free republic has to offer?

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Call that biotch: 202.225.6165

Posted by: Old Hat at March 4, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Why do people who vote hate America?

Posted by: Hermit at March 4, 2004 11:53 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian, quit lying.
Kerry has not called for negotiation with Bin Laden. Why don't you trot on over to Tacitus.
I'm sure you'll find that's a nice place to dump your shit.

Posted by: marky at March 4, 2004 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

The negotiations with the bin Ladens started, at the latest, on 9/11. That's an undisputed fact. There's plenty of evidence that negotiations between the bin Ladens and the Bushes go back quite some time. This doesn't prove that Kaiser George ordered the attacks of 9/11, but it does suggest the kind of people we will be voting for if we vote the Monarchy Party (formerly known as the GOP) in November.

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

Let the militarist wingers keep ranting. Their game is getting more and more tired. They got nothing to offer but war, war, war, as if saying it enough makes it so, and as if displays of vengence and policies promoting covert destablization of democratically-elected governments are THE sensible solutions to the inherently unstable global scene, and representative of our fundamental American principles and values. The War party are professional victims with a messiah complex, prisoners of their delusions with an abhorrent lack of imagination who call themselves patriots. Their attempts to intimidate and lack of respect for their fellow citizens are insults to our Founding Fathers who created our Constitution. They, as we all are, are entitled to their dissent. It is time for the mainstream majority who values civility, fairness and our Bill of Rights to reassert control of our government and return America to the community of nations. Kerry in 2004.

Posted by: sylvan at March 4, 2004 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

Excellent summation, sylvan.

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

Damn straight.

Thank you, sirs.

I'm tired of this shit.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

That was a great post Sylvan. Anyone here who thinks Bush is tough on terrorism should take a nice close look at what is arguable the number one target and my home town. Since 9/11 Bush has made cuts and gone back on promises that have resulted in a serious decline in the number of first responders in NYC. He has failed to implement even the simplest measures to secure the ports and surrounding areas. Iraq has been a farce to distract those with no attention span and a severe critical thinking disability.
So yeah, a 6'4" Osama Bin Laden on kidney dialysis with his face plastered all over the world walks free in south asia 2.5 years after 9/11. I'm sure Osama is quaking in his boots that W will get reelected.

Posted by: lakema at March 4, 2004 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

nothing to offer but war, war, war,

So says that voice of appeasement. I guess if we say that the war is over, the terrorists won't attack us again!

Posted by: Al at March 4, 2004 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

I have no doubt that Bin Laden would prefer Bush to win. He's the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has ever had. Hell, even our friends hate us now.

Posted by: The Bobs at March 4, 2004 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

heh Al. What happened to the bin Laden family on and immediately after 9/11?

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

I'm waiting Al. What happened to the bin Ladens?

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

I would like to take exception to Cong. Cole's statements, infact I think the opposite might be true.

First ? President Bush is no Lincoln, and he is no Roosevelt.

Such comparisons ought to make all blush.

Second ? Bin Laden?s strategy is that the U.S. will collapse, like the Soviet Union. The Bush administrations inept policies have actually made bin Laden?s strategy suddenly plausible ? beyond, I'm sure, bin Laden?s wildest dreams.

Arguably, in history, recent and distant, collapse?s or implosions are related to financial mismanagement: be it Soviet Union or the Western Roman Empire (See Nobel Lauriete Douglas North?s ?Structure and Change in Ecnomic History" pgs 100-115ish).

The ability to administer sanctions (execute warefare), let alone destroy bin Laden has been reduced by the tons of resources and diplomatic capital (international moral authority) wasted in Iraq ($150 billion and counting).

The combination of wasting resources by getting needlessly distracted in Iraq and creating massive budget deficits all at the hands of George Bush has actually made bin Laden?s strategy plausible.

Tactics is another thing - Bush may have thwarted bin Laden's tactic of terrorism, but not his strategy of inducing collapse. In fact, Bush has furthered bin Laden's strategy.

Bin Laden might not survive Bush, but Bush has made his strategy seem more plausible than even he could have contemplated.

Financial deficits limit the international sanctioning power of the U.S.

So has the deliberate trashing of 65 years of accumulated diplomatic capital, international moral authority and percieved legitimacy.

This administrations track record simply boggles the mind.

I say, short of capturing bin Laden, which I expect to happen in September or October, the Bush administration has done more to help bin Laden?s strategy than to hurt it. The modern republican party is truly a parliament of dunces.

Contrary to Congressman Cole's assertion, It can be reasonably argued that re-electing Bush is a vote in favor of sustaining bin Laden and his strategy.

Posted by: spot on at March 4, 2004 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sort of sure, no VERY sure that if kerry was elected preznit he would NOT allow the bin laden family to leave, NO be ESCORTED on a government plane, out of the United States back to Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 hijackers came from. I'm pretty sure. I know Al or a host of other repugs would rather refute such statements but then again, facts are sorta kinda hard to refute.

Posted by: al_I_am_not at March 4, 2004 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Congressman Cole responds, if anyone here cares:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ok04_cole/react.html

This reads a little different to me than Corinne Brown's racist remarks. CalPundit is slowly becoming an extremist rag like Atrios's site. Desperate blogging by desperate bloggers for extremist readers.
Sad.


For Immediate Release
March 4, 2004

Congressman Cole Corrects Inaccurate Potrayal of Comments

Washington DC- "The Yukon Review mischaracterized my remarks in the opening lead of their story published yesterday. However, they did accurately quote parts of my speech during the Canadian County Republican Convention held last Saturday."

"I do believe that if President Bush is not re-elected, the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that such a strong war time leader would be out of office. I never said and do not believe that a vote against President Bush is equivalent to a vote for Adolf Hitler. The patriotism of candidates and voters who oppose the President is not in question," Congressman Cole said.

During the Canadian County Convention, Congressman Cole did say the following:

"I promise you this, if George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election, it's that simple. It will be interpreted that way by enemies of the United States around the world."

"What do you think Hitler would have thought if Roosevelt would've lost the election in 1944? He would have thought American resolve was [weakening]."

"What would the confederacy have thought if Lincoln would have lost the election of 186[4]?"

"I stand by these statements and do believe that this November is again another important time in history, just like Lincoln's victory in 1864 and Roosevelt's victory in 1944. President Bush has proved that he will stand up to our enemies and I believe that is his most important job as Commander in Chief," Congressman Cole said.


Posted by: Dennis Slater at March 4, 2004 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Come on Al. Get your thumb out of your ass and answer one simple question. The people who lost family and friends on 9/11 would like to know what happened to the bin Ladens. Georgie boy uses 9/11 as a campaign prop, but will he answer one fucking question? Can you give your blow-buddy some help here pal?

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

Are there really people who think that Brown's remarks were 100 times worse than Cole's?
I thought that was a joke.

Posted by: marky at March 4, 2004 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

What's all this talk of re-election? Really! To be re-elected, one would have to have been elected in the first place, not installed by Supreme Court justices.

Posted by: Jamie at March 4, 2004 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

Al, sweetie, if we prove we're as honorable as we claim, 'the terrorists' will attack us less, huh?

Don't you think?

Honor=Appeasement is your stupid little schtik?

*raps thrice more*

No more cutesy boys, free republic send the quality of bladeforums!

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

I guess if we say that the war is over, the terrorists won't attack us again!

Idiots.

The terrorists are going to attack us regardless of whether we say we're at war with them or not. They're at WAR with us, and ALWAYS will be.

Therefore, to avoid falling into a really stupid trap, treat them like the criminals they are, not the warriors they pretend to be.

That means, capturing and/or killing them. Not invading countries wholesale. Not calling it a "crusade". Not calling it a "War" when convenient for political purposes, but never demanding the sacrifices real wars require, like not having a tax cut every year.

The people who attacked us may think they are at War. Let them. It's part of their mythology of Holy War. To play their game is exactly that, playing by their rules. If they are up against a law enforcement effort, vs. matching our warriors on the battlefield, which do you think makes them look worse to the eyes of the Muslims who they're trying to influence?

The real terrorists? They are going to attack us when and if they get the chance. They're not fooled by Iraq, into some sort of silly flypaper strategy. They know where their targets are, and they're going to attempt to attack us when and if they get the chance. Regardless of whether or not we SAY we're at War with them.

The whole thing is stupid. You can't go to war on a proper noun.

Posted by: Monkey at March 4, 2004 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

What about the President Bush being AWOL in Alabama? Any word from all the readers of this blog looking at all the records in Alabama? I thought people were buying plane tickets to go and research this. What is going on with this issue?

Posted by: Dennis Slater at March 4, 2004 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

Al, you're just as big a clueless coward as your Dear Leader. If you think what happened to the bin Ladens after 9/11 doesn't matter, then say so blowboy. If it does matter to you, how do you explain it?

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 12:49 PM | PERMALINK

Monkey writes:

You can't go to war on a proper noun.

Common nouns are a different story---just watch
"Nukular" get into the next OED edition.

Posted by: marky at March 4, 2004 12:49 PM | PERMALINK

"Let the militarist wingers keep ranting. Their game is getting more and more tired. They got nothing to offer but war, war, war, as if saying it enough makes it so, and as if displays of vengence and policies promoting covert destablization of democratically-elected governments are THE sensible solutions to the inherently unstable global scene, and representative of our fundamental American principles and values. The War party are professional victims with a messiah complex, prisoners of their delusions with an abhorrent lack of imagination who call themselves patriots. Their attempts to intimidate and lack of respect for their fellow citizens are insults to our Founding Fathers who created our Constitution. They, as we all are, are entitled to their dissent. It is time for the mainstream majority who values civility, fairness and our Bill of Rights to reassert control of our government and return America to the community of nations. Kerry in 2004.
Posted by sylvan at March 4, 2004 12:06 PM | PERMALINK "

Coming late, read this.

(I will keep spamming it if you don't)

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 12:50 PM | PERMALINK

You can't go to war on a proper noun.

Really? What can you go to war on?

Posted by: Al at March 4, 2004 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

Al has to be the most clueless blog commenter I've ever seen.

Posted by: Alex at March 4, 2004 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

Al, you cowardly poltroon. What happened to the bin Ladens on and immediately after 9/11? and why? Seems like a fair question to ask Kaiser George and kool-aid kids like you. Why won't you answer Al? Too tough for you? Blowhard.

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 01:01 PM | PERMALINK

Over the next year-and-a-half, Soros continued to seethe. He began to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis: "When I hear Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds me of the Germans," he told the Washington Post. "My experiences [in Hungary] under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me."
Don't remember and codemnation on this one either....

Sebastioan/Ch2 -
He is also the one who stated the War vs Police Action:
"the war on terrorism cannot be won by waging war. ? Crime requires police work, not military action."
I think Coles comments were wrong, but there is no way that you can compare 'you all look alike' and a historical reference in the same vain. Also think that COle did stand up in his apology, while cole continued to call people she disagreed with racists...
"I do believe that if President Bush is not re-elected, the United States' enemies around the world will take comfort and strength in the fact that such a strong war time leader would be out of office. I never said and do not believe that a vote against President Bush is equivalent to a vote for Adolf Hitler. The patriotism of candidates and voters who oppose the President is not in question," Congressman Cole said.

Posted by: Sinop85 at March 4, 2004 01:04 PM | PERMALINK

cole is on cnn now (3:14 cst)

Posted by: Keith G at March 4, 2004 01:15 PM | PERMALINK

a vote for bush is a vote for more world hatred of american which is what obl wants. voting for bush is a vote for obl.

Posted by: stick it in the hole at March 4, 2004 01:17 PM | PERMALINK

What about the President Bush being AWOL in Alabama? Any word from all the readers of this blog looking at all the records in Alabama? I thought people were buying plane tickets to go and research this. What is going on with this issue?

It's over. It's abundantly clear from the record that W was not expected to live by the little people rules, was allowed to get away with not doing so, and that the brass bent over backwards to accomodate his spoiled rich kid ass.

Anyone who considers that Friday afternoon document release a vindication is living in Bizarro World.

Personally, I was always really more interested in the cocaine anyway. But the press hasn't found the question yet that will make Scotty McLapDog talk about that.

Posted by: xfrosch at March 4, 2004 01:20 PM | PERMALINK

Helen Thomas and the "community service" question came close. I'm not sure that we won't get an answer to that one. I'm still hoping. That's where Georgie boy got recruited I figure - him and his pal James Bath.

Posted by: coz at March 4, 2004 01:24 PM | PERMALINK

I guess I'm late to this discussion. But I can agree, Cole's analogy is pretty pathetic. It's almost as wrong as saying Bush is as evil as Hitler.

I never commented on the Corinne Brown statements. But I agree that both parties should be quick to criticize hate speech within their own ranks to keep dialogue meaningful.

Posted by: Staunch Moderate at March 4, 2004 01:26 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, as I said earlier, I met that vet, man, he wasn't dirty, just homeless, he was in country from 65 to 69, that's fucking hardcore, a good man.

I respect him, he wouldn't vote when I tried to get him to. (tuesday)

He said, "You're young."

What does that mean to me, means there's more coming home like him, or different.

It means, FUCK YOU GWB!!!

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:32 PM | PERMALINK

I'm more interested in his trips to Central America while in the Guard.

Do you have to tell your CO if you're leaving the country when in the Guard?

Posted by: Monkey at March 4, 2004 01:33 PM | PERMALINK

But, I call Hitler!

(fucking milktoasts)

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:35 PM | PERMALINK

kesier,
Idiocy of the day:
"""If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election," Cole is quoted in this week's edition of the Yukon Review....Cole is quoted as asking what Hitler might have thought had Franklin Roosevelt not been re-elected in 1944."""

Seriously...what do these quotes have to do with Kerry?

It is actually possible to refer to something obliquely, without refering to it by name. So, what do you think happens when 'George loses the election'? Anyone smarter than paint will say "Kerry wins the election." Ask someone smarter than you about this.
So, the speaker is assuming that the (non-moronic) reader can make this inference. THAT is what these quotes have to do with Kerry.

(eg "If someone isn't a Democrat, they're either an idiot or a fascist"- this obviously refers to Republicans, among others, without actually using the word "Republican". See how that works, moron?)

. There is no Afghanistan and Iraq, Al Queda operates across borders. Most leftists oposed Afghanistan
from the get go, they wanted sanctions..they march in the streets against the war.

There are two different places called Iraq and Afghanistan. They require drastically different policies and actions by our government. ONE of them had a government that was heavily involved with Al Qaeda, btw...
And, you must be hanging out with the fucking Communards if you think that most Dems opposed Afghanistan. Most Dems were tweaked when vital resources were moved from Afghanistan to Iraq.

2. Bush doesn't decide the number of troops, he sets the mission goals, the military decides the assets
necessary to accomplish it given other commitments. If you want a President to decide how many troops should be
used for a mission..you are a military idiot.

What part of "Commander-in-chief" do you not understand, fucktard? The President does indeed have the final say. The President doesn't design the various campaign strategies or force requirements, but he does set the basic guidelines for them, and after their design he examines and approves them. And, in this case, his administration had some fucking stupid ideas about being greeted with a flower parade, so their ideas about what forces and specialties would be necessary were screwed up.
Apparently, you're just the garden-variety idiot.

3. No one was pulled out of where they were necessary.

Yeah, we have an unlimited supply of elite special forces, troops trained for occupation/policing duties, etc. You are a military idiot in addition to your other 'talents'.

4. Kerry voted for the war, Gephardt, Lieberman, Edwards voted for the war. Who opposed??

Kerry was faced with a discrete decision: support or not support. His actual position (as he has articulated several times) was that the US should involve its allies & use sanctions until force became absolutely necessary. Shrub did neither of those things.
I know that the RNC spin is that voting against the Iraqi means that one is a appeasing traitor and that voting for the war means that one is (or was) in complete agreement with Bush, but all us non-morons see through that pretty easily.

Striking terrorists in Iraq is an act of war?read your United Nations manual. The main terrorist camp in
Iraq was at Salman Pak, near Baghdad.

I presume you meant to say that harboring terrorists was an act of war (although one can never be sure, you're displaying some real stupidity, so correcting your posts entails the real risk of overestimating your intelligence). And there is nada evidence that Saddam was harboring terrorists who attacked Americans. You're buying a boatload of unsubstantiated BS from the neocons and townhall.com if you think that a real Saddam-AQ linkage has been demonstrated.

I like Al better. I don't agree with him, and he buys RNC spin by the caseload, but he isn't as dumb as this new one.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 01:41 PM | PERMALINK

Didn't the GOP already directly compare Max Cleland to both OBL and Saddam?

Posted by: Rumblelizard at March 4, 2004 01:44 PM | PERMALINK

Padilla (an American citizen) just got a lawyer after two years in the hole, habeas corpus anyone?

Yay?

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:45 PM | PERMALINK

And what's up with that Mousaaui thing?

Why do I listen to eminem instead of Novak?

Heh.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:50 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, Carleton Wu...keep it up..with brains like yours, the Republicans are sure to win.

Let's see, Bush believes in taking the war to the etrrorists and fighting the war overseas where they live....Kerry believes it is mostly law enforcement job...which is done in the United States after terrorists have killed a bunch of Americans.

I would think given the choice of being left alone to plan our destruction or being hunted by Marines..Osama would prefer the Kerry plan.

Duhhhhh Its not hard to figure out.

Posted by: keiser at March 4, 2004 01:51 PM | PERMALINK

Don't feed the trolls, man.

I like Al better. I don't agree with him, and he buys RNC spin by the caseload, but he isn't as dumb as this new one.

Wu
Posted by Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 01:41 PM | PERMALINK"

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:52 PM | PERMALINK

Who would bin laden prefer? Well, bin laden's goals were to get American troops out of Saudi Arabia, get Saddam out of power, and increase the purposes of Al Qaeda.

Bush has made bin Laden 3 for 3. I think he likes Bush just fine. He even makes tapes just for him.

Posted by: crabb at March 4, 2004 01:53 PM | PERMALINK

Dude, keiser, you're lame.

Get a new name and try harder.

You're lame.

:)

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:55 PM | PERMALINK

Novak's got no rythm?

Posted by: TMorgan at March 4, 2004 01:57 PM | PERMALINK

"He even makes tapes just for him."

Lmao!

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:57 PM | PERMALINK

keiser-
ya big dummy. You elevate al Qaeda to the level of soldiers. They are not soldiers. They are criminals. Just as the war on drugs and the war on poverty have failed, so too shall the war on terror. It can not be won, especially by the likes of GeeDub. The only way to win is with the CIA and the FBI and special ops. Not tanks and choppers.

Note of interest: In the battle for Iraq, the US was 0 for 50 on surgical missile stikes, killing hundreds of civilians in the process. Frontline - 2.27.04

Posted by: crabb at March 4, 2004 01:59 PM | PERMALINK

"Novak's got no rythm?"

That's just gross, please don't bring that up again.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 01:59 PM | PERMALINK

Did I miss something? Where was the condemnation of Brown by you or any Dem? You've set the bar. Don't complain it's too low.

Posted by: Chris at March 4, 2004 02:01 PM | PERMALINK

Let's face it those latinos DO all look the same (don't they), guess they're Hitler like me, huh?

You stupid little bitch, Chris.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 02:07 PM | PERMALINK

kiester,
I would think given the choice of being left alone to plan our destruction or being hunted by Marines..Osama would prefer the Kerry plan.

Osama, like the vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet, can think much better than you.

Allow me to present an alternative line of reasoning:

Do you really think that Al Qaeda didn't forsee massive US retaliation? Have you noticed that:
-they are a household name now
-recruiting has gone through the roof, and other terrorist groups are approaching them, hat-in-hand, asking for a united front?
-popular opinion of the US in the Middle East, and around the world, has plummeted?
-Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists, a practice arena for testing field techniques against the US Army, and a rallying point for non-terrorist Muslims who dislike the US?

I would say that AQ is much better off with Bush in office. He & his ally-loathing friends are sure to prevent the US from the sort of long-term cooperative effort that would alienate AQ from their Muslim support base and render them impotent.

Wow, Carleton Wu...keep it up..with brains like yours, the Republicans are sure to win.

Fortunately, you zombie motherfuckers aren't going to get my brains, so your failure is assured. Death to the zombies!

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 02:15 PM | PERMALINK

Chris,
Calpundit already comdemned it. In real-time.
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003362.html
"APOLOGIZE, PLEASE....OK, count me in as a Democrat who thinks Corrine Brown was out of line yesterday"

Monkeys who know how to use a search, please.

Wu

PS The bar is not too low. It is manned by stupid people.

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 02:19 PM | PERMALINK

"PS The bar is not too low. It is manned by stupid people."

'You talkin to me?'

I may be stupid, but don't even call me out.

Checking.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 02:29 PM | PERMALINK

naw, it refers to Chris. The guy who got his panties in a bunch asking Kevin to condemn something that he condemned last month...

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 02:34 PM | PERMALINK

Re: bin Laden family meme upthread --

it appears that one or more planes were allowed to enter US airspace and fly within the country to gather family members while commercial and civil aviation was grounded. Reportedly fearing retaliation, the Bin Ladens were then allowed to leave after apparently minimal questioning from the FBI. While controversy continues to surround the extent (or existence) of such questioning (see our previous post on the matter), another dispute surrounds the precise date that the Bin Ladens were allowed to leave the country and whether flights were still grounded at the time.
Our understanding of the evacuation of the Bin Laden family members is incomplete. However, the lack of available information increases the burden on journalists to be precise about what we do know, which currently does not include any flights leaving the country while commercial and private aviation were grounded on Sept. 11-13.

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2003_09_14_archive.html#106368110563967895

Posted by: MichaelW at March 4, 2004 02:37 PM | PERMALINK

To the defenders of the quote, let me ask you what you think the propriety of the following argument is:

The Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan would much rather not see Kerry win. Thus if Kerry loses, it will be as if the Grand Dragon had won the election. Or, at least, that is how inveterate racists all over the world will see it.

Please note that Bush is not mentioned by name, and that the initial claim is at least as likely to be true true as Cole's is.

Call me crazy, but the above smacks me as a charge of racism. Yet it closelsy paralells the Cole argument: Enemies of the country would take heart in the defeat of my candidate, thus a defeat of my candidate would be tantamount to a victory for those enemies- or at least that i how the enemies and their partisans will see it.

So is there a difference?

Posted by: epist at March 4, 2004 02:43 PM | PERMALINK

Epist:

I think you've made a reasonable and fairly good analogy. But I don't think it necessarily parallels Cole's statement. Here's why:

(1) There is no explicit war against the KKK right now.

(2) Kerry has not initiated any actions to eradicate the world of the KKK (at least none that we know of).

(3) There is an explicit war presently taking place against bin Laden and al Quaeda.

(4) Bush has initiated specific actions to eradicate the world of bin Laden and AQ.

I can see how one could interpret Cole's statement to say that a vote for Kerry is a vote for bin Laden. But I understand him to mean that voting out a sitting president who has declared war on bin Laden is the equivalent of a no-confidence vote against Bush, with the result that bin Laden gains an advantage, psychologically if nothing else.

Comparing Cole's statement to Brown's, however, is not much more than an exercise in partisan interpretation, to say the least.

Posted by: MichaelW at March 4, 2004 02:55 PM | PERMALINK

Michael,
I think that that would only be true insofar as Kerry (the alternative) is not going to operate vigorously against Al Qaeda.
If Kerry wins, I would say that it is a blow to preventing gay marriage, because the two candidates have different stances on that issue. But, 'switching horses in midstream' is only a vote of no confidence if it can be shown that the second horse is going a different direction, IMO.

If FDR had lost in 1944, I don't think it would've sent any sort of message of weakness to Hitler. Leaving aside the fact that the war was in its final stages at that point, there isn't any reason to think that either candidate regarded prosecution of the war as less important than the other.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 03:04 PM | PERMALINK

I call Hitler!

(alright, yeah, it's not funny, but I'm going, so I call Hitler!)

Heh.

Posted by: perpwalk at March 4, 2004 03:08 PM | PERMALINK

LET'S DOOO WUUUU:

kiester,
I would think given the choice of being left alone to plan our destruction or being hunted by Marines..Osama would prefer the Kerry plan.

Osama, like the vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet, can think much better than you.

Allow me to present an alternative line of reasoning:

Do you really think that Al Qaeda didn't forsee massive US retaliation? Have you noticed that:
-they are a household name now (((GEE, AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE A HOUSEHOLD NAME QWHEN THE CLINTON ADMINSTRATION HAD THIS BIG PLAN TO STOP THEM...YOU KNOW THE PLAN THAT TOOK 7 YEARS TO THINK ABOUT)
-recruiting has gone through the roof, and other terrorist groups are approaching them, hat-in-hand, asking for a united front? (WHO, WHERE....WAKE UP FOOL...THEY ARE DYING BY THE TENS AND HUNDREDS, THEY ARE BEING LOCKED UP, CAPTURED OR KILLED. HAVE YOU EVEN READ ZARQAIRI LETTER TO OSAMA???
-popular opinion of the US in the Middle East, and around the world, has plummeted? ((OHHH, I'M SHAKING, THE ARABS STREET HAS RISEN UP..HA HA HA))
-Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists, a practice arena for testing field techniques against the US Army, and a rallying point for non-terrorist Muslims who dislike the US?
((HOW SILLY, ARABS BREED JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE YOU RASCISTS PIG..OSAMA TRAINED 10,000 FIGHTERS WHY CLINTON WAS SODOMIZING GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WITH CIGARS)))
((IF YOU WERE AN AMERICA SOLDIER YOU WOULD SEE IT MORE AS AMERICANS TESTING FIELD TECHNIQUES TO KILL AND CAPTURE TERRORISTS))

I would say that AQ is much better off with Bush in office. He & his ally-loathing friends are sure to prevent the US from the sort of long-term cooperative effort that would alienate AQ from their Muslim support base and render them impotent.
(((WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN YOU AND JOHN KERRY PLAN FAIL....AL QUEDA ATTACKED THE WTC IN 1993..CLINTON SENT IN THE FBI, AND WE GOT THE KHOWBAR TOWERS....CLINTON SENT IN THE FBI AND WE GOT THE USS COLE....CLINON SENT IN THE FBI AND WE GOT THE AFRICAN EMBASSY BOMBINGS...CLINTON SENT IN THE FBI AND WE GOT SEPT 11TH..THROUGH ALL THAT THE MIDDLE EAST MOVED FURTHER BACKWARDS, FARTHER FROM FREEDOM, MORE RADICAL...A PROVEN FAILED POLICY.....NOW WE ARE TRYING SOMETHING THAT WORKS.

Ahhh, I hope it was good for Wu too.

Posted by: KESIER at March 4, 2004 03:08 PM | PERMALINK

AND WHO HAS GOTTEN BETTER RESULTS:

Let's look at the results:

President Bush has taken FOUR countries out of the support
of proliferation of WMD and supporting terrorists.

He has overthrown the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan
He has overthrown Hussein and is transforming Iraq from a terror state to
a Democracy, thus cutting the terror axis from Afghanistan to Syria
a serious blow
He has stopped the Pakistani proliferation of Nuclear technology
He has stopped Libya WMD and Nuclear programs
He has brought Iran to cooperating with the IAEA
He has brought Korea to five Nation talks instead of another worthless
bribe where they take our money and contine their WMD programs..
He has brought Yemen and Indonesia into the fight against Al Queda.
He has greatly impacted terro funding around the globe.
He has defeated every goal Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda outlined
in their Fatwa against America.
He has ended the Antifadah against Isreal started under Clinton.
All of this has been accomplished with as many combat casualties in 2 and 1/2 years
as one day of casualities in WWII.

Far from being unilateralist, it is Syria, Iran and Korea who are now isolated.

Clinton allowed all these countries to continue terrorist support and WMD prolieration.

I THINK IT IS CLEAR, THE BUSH STRATEGY BEATS THE CLINTON/KERRY/WU STRATEGY HANDS DOWWN!!

Posted by: Kesier at March 4, 2004 03:12 PM | PERMALINK

Make no mistake, BUSH IS EVIL.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm#_edn14

Posted by: GOD at March 4, 2004 03:16 PM | PERMALINK

Keister,
Ahhh, I hope it was good for Wu too.

Yeah, it's just fuckin' aweseome sitting here watching you fail to address any of the points that I made. Actually, it's pretty boring, since you won't actually debate anything. Every time you try to make a point & get your ass handed to you, you suddenly uncover a new position that you'd like to defend (until it gets shot out from under you).
Now, apparently, rather than defending the Bush 'plan' to defeat AQ, you'd like to debate Clinton's response to terrorism.

You're getting dumber by the minute, so I'll limit myself to a single point of your idiocy for now (Ive got other fish to fry, and turning you out is getting kinda dull):

recruiting has gone through the roof, and other terrorist groups are approaching them, hat-in-hand, asking for a united front? (WHO, WHERE....WAKE UP FOOL...THEY ARE DYING BY THE TENS AND HUNDREDS, THEY ARE BEING LOCKED UP, CAPTURED OR KILLED. HAVE YOU EVEN READ ZARQAIRI LETTER TO OSAMA???

Where? In the Zarqairi letter, which you moronically ask if I've read. I have, in fact, read translations of it. It is (in part) an invitation from Zarqairi's group to Al Qaeda to join them in fighting the Americans in Iraq. Thus, is a demonstration of 'other terrorist groups' 'approaching them' and 'asking for a united front'.

One rarely sees someone bright enough to type (but not to find the caps lock key), yet dumb enough to try to refute something by referencing a document that, in fact, demonstrates that the point is true.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 03:19 PM | PERMALINK

Keister,
He has stopped the Pakistani proliferation of Nuclear technology

Actually, fucktard, he gave his approval to Musharraf's pardon of the scientist responsible for Pakistan's proliferation. In small words- Pakistan gives away WMDs, Bush retroactively says that this is just fucking peachy with him. How your tiny little brain spins this into a plus for Bush is beyond me...

He has ended the Antifadah against Isreal started under Clinton.

This is news to the Israelis and the Palestinians. And, next time, try to spell the word approximately correctly. Everyone misses a letter or two now and then, but only by sounding "Antifadah" out phoenitically can one make a stab at what you mean. At first, I thought maybe it was a kosher appetizer plate.

Wu

PS Guys, next time I start kicking the shit out of a troll, please restrain me. I forget, these weeds can generate BS faster than I can pummel it out of them.

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 03:25 PM | PERMALINK

""""Zarqairi's group to Al Qaeda to join them in fighting the Americans in Iraq. Thus, is a demonstration of 'other terrorist groups' 'approaching them' and 'asking for a united front'.""""

This shows you simply don't even understand what Al Queda is. It is literally the base...it consists of many previously existing terrorists groups and brings them under an umbrella for training support and funding.
You have to have some minimal understand of fanatic Islam to grasp the relationship between cells and osama. Which you completely lack.

You simply fail to grasp that Pakistan was proliferating all through the Clinton years.

Clinton is very relevant because Kerry wants to go back to the Clinton terror policy...do nothing and see how many times you can ejacualate on an intern.

Posted by: keiser at March 4, 2004 03:36 PM | PERMALINK

Keister,
This shows you simply don't even understand what Al Queda is. It is literally the base...it consists of many previously existing terrorists groups and brings them under an umbrella for training support and funding.

It's just a fucking name, you moron. If they called themselves "Islamic Victory", would you then deduce that they had already won?

Read the translations of the letter. It clearly solicits AQ's involvement in Iraq, coming from an outside organization. Dipshit.

You simply fail to grasp that Pakistan was proliferating all through the Clinton years.

Retard, this was supposed to be a bullet point about the success of Bush's policies. Once again, whenever one of your bullshit points gets deflated, you just make-believe that it was about something else.

What I grasp is that neither Bush nor Clinton were able to prevent Pakistani proliferation. This is because, contrary to your fucked-up POV, the world is complex and solutions may be difficult or even impossible (given other constraints, like not provoking an Islamic coup in a nuclear-armed country).
First, you claim that it's a victory for Bush. It obviously isn't, so now that that's been knocked down you claim that it's a stain on Clinton.

What-fucking-ever.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 03:45 PM | PERMALINK

KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER
KERRY = HITLER Kevin wrote that, Not Rep Cole.
KERRY = HITLER

Did that manage to get through your thick troll heads?

Posted by: keiser at March 4, 2004 03:51 PM | PERMALINK

KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL I wrote that cos' it's true
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL I wrote that cos' it's true
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL I wrote that cos' it's true
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL I wrote that cos' it's true
KEISTER = FUCKING MORON TROLL

You're right, that is pretty cathartic.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 03:52 PM | PERMALINK

Figures that a person with 'Keiser'(sic) as a name would believe strongly in Furherprinzip.

Posted by: Kaiser Willie at March 4, 2004 03:55 PM | PERMALINK

Wu spews idiocy: """"Do you really think that Al Qaeda didn't forsee massive US retaliation?"""

Why sure they did, just look at the massive retaliation Clinton used on them..Ha Ha.

So Osama knew that we were going to overthrow his boy Omar and take over Afghanistan. That we would blow up all his caves, take all his stashes, kill all his top Commanders. Capture or kill two thords of his leadership. Kill his cohorts in Iraq, in Yemen, i Indonesia, in pakistan. Roll up their funding networks.

Overthrow Saddam and take over Iraq, cut off Syria, turn Libya, and Saudi Arabia against him and general Efff up his entire life. Leaving him hold up in mountian caves in no mans land.

And you say that is exactly what Osamas plan was.

Your so ignorant, I don't you would even qualify to be an intern in the Clinton adminstration...although I believe you do need to go wipe your chin, biootchhhh.


Posted by: Kesier at March 4, 2004 04:25 PM | PERMALINK

Michael-

As to the argument that Kerry, unlike Bush, has not tried to rid the world of AQ-

Consider a similar charge against a southern Republican senator, who, unlike his opponent, has not spent much of his political life fighting organised racism. Would it be fair to use the KKK argument against him? After all, he hasn't tried to rid the world of racism.

Apart from that, the fact that Kerry hasn't taken action to rid the world of AQ isn't relevant, since he hasn't had the chance. Surely you're not suggesting that Kerry is fair game for this accusation because he didn't lead the nation against AQ despite never having been president.

The only way that the fact that Bush has taken us to war against Al Quaeda is a relevant difference here is if you assume that Kerry wouldn't have taken action against them after the attack, or would suspend action against them after his election. Either charge is a nasty black lie, at best.


As for the fact that there isn't a war going on against the KKK-

May I remind you what the previous record was for deaths in a terrorist attck on US soil? Replace the KKK with the Patriot/White Supremecist movement, and the analogy will pass that test.

Posted by: epist at March 4, 2004 04:37 PM | PERMALINK

Kiester,
Flame war etiquette demands that you actually land a punch before saying "biootchhhh". Newbie.

Thanks again for not addressing any of my points, it cuts down on my risk of carpal's, and ensures that the debate will be lowered down to where you feel more comfortable (even if you still get your kiester whipped)- insultland.

Oh, yeah, and ignorant means not knowing stuff. You might want to call me "mean-spirited" or "annoying" or, if you were feeling feisty, "asinine"...

But if you're going to label one of us ignorant, I think it would be the one that asked the other to read the Zarqairi letter to prove a point, when the other had actually read the letter and knew that it proved the opposite.

I'll save you the trouble of drooling while trying to parse that last sentence: that would be you, lardass.

Wu

Posted by: Carleton Wu at March 4, 2004 04:38 PM | PERMALINK

It is abundantly clear that if given a choice, Osama would much prefer Sen. Heinz-Kerry to win the election.

Yes, and the Japanese were so thrilled at Churchill's defeat in July 1945 that they kept on fighting, even past the A-bombs a month later.

Oops, sorry.

What a moronic statement.

Posted by: ahem at March 4, 2004 04:47 PM | PERMALINK

Keiser,

I was fun watching my man C. Wu knock the living shit out of you repeatedly and without mercy until you became a bloody pulpy mass of trollmeat. Please keep your honor by ritually killing youself.

Love,

Posted by: Old Hat at March 4, 2004 05:22 PM | PERMALINK

"It is abundantly clear that if given a choice, Osama would much prefer Sen. Heinz-Kerry to win the election."

The only thing that is abundantly clear is that you are a moron. OBL was a small, insignificant Piece o' shite pre 9-11, and needed to provoke a wider conflict in the ME. Bush has been following his plan exactly, by diverting the resources from the Afghan OBL hunt to go chase windmills in Iraq, and thus increase OBL's stature in the Islamic world. And your helping OBL as well by shilling for the Moron infesting the White house....

Posted by: Bush's left nut at March 4, 2004 07:21 PM | PERMALINK

what someone needs to ask this guy is if he and the Republicans are advocating suspending free elections in this country while the so called "war" on terror is going on.....because that's what his comment sounds like!

Posted by: sula at March 4, 2004 07:25 PM | PERMALINK

what someone needs to ask this guy is if he and the Republicans are advocating suspending free elections in this country while the so called "war" on terror is going on.....because that's what his comment sounds like!

Judy Woodruff asked him that question: whether holding an election would actually give aid and comfort to Osama. Cole dug something of a grave for himself by suggesting, more or less, that the mark of a great democracy was to hold elections in time of war... as long as it was clear that voting for change meant that the terrorists had won.

Can't you just tell that he's one of the sadly large proportion of GOPpers with an uncontested House seat?

Posted by: ahem at March 4, 2004 07:35 PM | PERMALINK

Again, it is still amazing that a guy with the worst presidential record in the entire history of America is at 46 % in the polls. How fucking bad does it have to get?

Posted by: Former Green Party Voter at March 4, 2004 07:38 PM | PERMALINK

My knowledge of history says no president has ever used a war on his watch in the cynical way the Republicans have. Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman all had loud and often nasty opposition to their policies during war time but they never impugned the patriotism of the opposition. During WWII Democrats never said a vote for Dewey is a vote for Hitler. They always defended their opponents' right to disagree, even with a real shooting war going on. Seems to me that taking criticism in tough times is pretty close to the heart of what it means to be an American and the Republicans are acting in evil ways that aren't supposed to happen in this country.

Posted by: james from DC at March 4, 2004 08:51 PM | PERMALINK

Damn, was Brown expelled from the House? I must've missed it.

Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) at March 4, 2004 08:55 PM | PERMALINK

The mantra must be: BUSH IS EVIL. As plain as the nose on your face.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm#_edn14

Posted by: Buddha at March 4, 2004 09:00 PM | PERMALINK

If Kerry had actually planned on fighting a war against terror, then Osama may not like his election. But the choice is between fighting the war and ending the war and making it a police invetigation.

Ask yourself this question, would Osama prefer a group of Marines chasing after him, or a group of anti-war pacificts???

With Bush you get the Marines, with Kerry you get
the pacifists back in office and Kerry becomes Osamas Biootchh.

Would osama prefer Bush who supports our military, or Kerry who labels them war criminals?

Would osama support Bush, who fights for funding for the troops to fight the war on terrorists, of Kerry who voted against funding the trooops efforts?

Would Osama support Bush who has fought for increaeses in Defense and Intelligence budgets, or Kerry who voted repeatedly to cut those budgets?

Would osama support Bush who has strongly supported the death penalty his whole career, or Kerry who strongly opposed the death penalty all his career, even for terrorists who kill americans??

Would Osama support Bush who says he will never seek approval from the UN to protect America, or Kerry who says we must get approval from the UN to deploy US troops??

THIS IS TOO EASIER....WU HAS BEEN DEFEATED...NEXT INTERN, WUs carcus is ready for disposal.

Posted by: kesier at March 5, 2004 02:11 AM | PERMALINK

Or do you think Osama prefers Bushs' overwhelming force to defeat Americans enemies,
or John Kerrys' saying he opposed President Reagans' bombing of Libya because it wasn't 'proprotional'
to the attack on us.

John Kerry wrote a letter criticizing President Reagan for the retaliatory bombing in 1986 of Libyan
dictator Moammar Qadafi. In the letter, Kerry complains that Reagan "overreacted" to the bombing
of a Berlin disco frequented by American troops. He claimed that our retaliation, which nearly killed
Qadaffi, was not "proportional." Kerry also said that "we are not going to solve the problem of
terrorism with this kind of retaliation."

Doesn't Kerry believe today that we can't solve Al Queda terrorism by retaliating against Al Queda????

Given Bushs retaliatioin against Al Queda, does Kerry believe we allready used a 'proportional' response and thus we should end the war?????

Game, Set, Match....Keiser wins again.

Posted by: keiser at March 5, 2004 04:12 AM | PERMALINK

Wouldn't Osama support Kerrys stand on noit executing him??
Kerry voted repeatedly to exempt Osama Bin Laden and all other international terrorists from the death penalty. Kerry says he would have a moratorium on Federal Death penalties.

Kerry voted at least three times to exempt terrorists from the death penalty. In a debate with former governor William Weld, his opponent in the 1996 Senate race, Kerry scorned the idea of executing terrorists. Anti-death penalty nations would refuse to extradite them to the United States, he said. "Your policy," he told Weld, "would amount to a terrorist protection policy. Mine would put them in jail."

So its 'jail' for Osama?

Posted by: keiser at March 5, 2004 04:19 AM | PERMALINK

-->Martyring Osama would be Stupid

-->Is there even a point to arguing with you, Keiser? I have not seen you fold to rationality even once. You don't have to to give up and declare unending hatred for all things Bush, but the fact that you refuse to fold on ANY point, no matter how wrong you were, is a pretty clear indication that perhaps you don't understand the basic purpose of argument? The point is to convince other people. That requires somewhat of a give and take.

Posted by: Sandals at March 5, 2004 05:21 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian:

(quotation from Slate) Supporting my point that Kerry doesn't think it is a war and suggesting that by lack of priority that it should not become one.
Actually, your quotation does not support your point. It is quite possible for there to be a war without the president being a "war president". See: Truman, H., Johnson, L., Nixon, R., Reagan, R., and many others. It is also quite possible for Kerry (and others) to separate the war against Iraq from the War on Terror and wonder whether the latter is not much of a war at all... at present. As for lack of priority, see: Bush, G.W.

And yes, the Cole quote suggests that many of Kerry's followers believe in appeasement. That is true (though they would of course call it 'negotiation').
Would you also describe the above-mentioned list of things Kerry followers believe as "appeasement"? If so, you either fail to understand the meaning of the term, or are using a wildly eccentric definition. As a rule, it is a good idea when debating others to use commonly-accepted defnitions for words. Otherwise, debate becomes meaningless.

As for the important (and offensive) quote, perhaps you need to re-read it. So here it is: ""If George Bush loses this election, Osama bin Laden wins this election." That's not a statement about appeasement, that's a statement that a victory for John Kerry is a victory if OBL.

Posted by: keith at March 5, 2004 05:38 AM | PERMALINK

P.S.
Wu, just stop trying to talk to Keiser. Even when he's not forgetting how to spell his own screen-name, he's still immune to logic, evidence, and the other stuff that counts in most debates.

Also, be aware that calling someone "asinine" might not have much effect on some of the folks who disagree with you here. At least one of them stubbornly insists that if someone calls you "silly" and you respond by calling them "asinine," you haven't changed the tone of te debate at all. (Yeah, W.A., I'm talking about you)

Posted by: keith at March 5, 2004 05:45 AM | PERMALINK

tbrosz said:

I sure as hell know who Saddam wishes had won in 2000.

These questions gets a lot of people to grind their teeth, but they can't or won't answer them.

Oooh, I'm so scared...not.

Here's my answer:

"Democracy in this country is our most precious heritage. Too precious, in fact, for the opinions of dictators, thugs, and terrorists to have any affect whatsoever on how we cast our ballots. We trust in not just democracy, but also the due process of the courts, to produce the most morally and practically correct judgements. If dictators, terrorists, and thugs can't understand that idea...Well, I guess that's why they're dictators, terrorists, and thugs."

Posted by: Kingdaddy at March 5, 2004 07:11 AM | PERMALINK

You can see the original article that started
this whole thing here:

http://members.cox.net/~gurumon8/coleyukon.html

Posted by: OKDem at March 5, 2004 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

Cole, MoveOn.org - these folks may be nuts and say outrageous things, but ask yourself the question that many voters are going to ask themselves. Who does OBL and N. Korea and the terrorists want to win the election? If W is so bad for America, then they should want him, right?

Posted by: Mike at March 5, 2004 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

"Who does OBL and N. Korea and the terrorists want to win the election?"

Who says they even care ?
Who knows ? You, Mike ?
How will you figure it out ?
This is a truly question that can not be answered. If you have some deep weird Zen purpose for asking it, out with it. If its just so you can answer it with your opinion, you'll have to play alone.

Posted by: ch2 at March 5, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

Republicans will do anything to win!! They will state that the Democratic, non-deserting veteran, is like Hitler!! Bush is Hitler, he is running the Adolf play book, play by play!! Everything they say about Kerry is what is true about Bush!! Not That I support Kerry, but most of the U.S. will vote for whoever goes against Hitler, I mean GWB!!! BTW I like your blog!! Thanks!! tracyv

Posted by: tracyv at March 5, 2004 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

It would make as much, or even more, to say (in hindsight):

If the Clinton/Gore administration's anti-terrorism policies are not continued after 2000 — in other words, if someone other than Gore becomes President — then terrorists like Osama bin Laden win. So voting against Gore in 2000 is like voting against FDR in 1944.

That's just about how it turned out. It was the Clinton/Gore administration that successfully prevented a number of terrorist attacks, and it was the Gore Commission (later echoed by the bipartisan Hart-Rudman Commission) that recommended improved anti-terrorism policies, including a unified Homeland Defense program. Gore would almost certainly have followed through on these recommendations. Bush, in contrast, shelved them, and spent much of his term's first nine months away from his job (e.g. reading to children, taking a month-long vacation in Crawford), instead of taking the actions that might have prevented the 9/11 attack.

The pro-Bush argument (amounting to "don't change horses in mid-stream") turns out to work even better as an anti-Bush argument — as a reason that Bush shouldn't have been allowed to take the Presidency in the first place.

That's based on how a loyal American, concerned for his country, might view it — unlike the actual pro-Bush argument, which is based on how America's enemies might view it.

I think I prefer to take the loyal American's viewpoint.

Let the Republicans take the enemy's viewpoint, and be welcome to it.

Posted by: Raven at March 6, 2004 12:48 AM | PERMALINK

ch2: Who does OBL and N. Korea and the terrorists want to win the election? . . . This is a truly question that can not be answered.

Really? Enjoy.

Posted by: Michael Hall at March 6, 2004 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

P.S.:

ch2, Are you sure I don't get one of your coveted "win-win" prizes? Well crap, what's the point of commenting then?

Posted by: Michael Hall at March 6, 2004 10:59 AM | PERMALINK

Most leftists oposed Afghanistan from the get go

yeah, remember those millions of people on the streets protesting the war in afghanistan *sigh* those were heady times. [/kesier's delusion]

idiot.

Posted by: flatulus at March 6, 2004 02:17 PM | PERMALINK

Michael HALL, I apologize for my tardiness. But you can't get a win-win prize for two reasons,
1) I had limited it to the first three.
2) And in any case, you never actually commented on Tom Coles.

Second, I couldn't follow your link since I don't get FT (can you post a copy here ?).

Regards,

Posted by: ch2 at March 6, 2004 06:17 PM | PERMALINK

A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving.

Posted by: Lee Amy at March 17, 2004 04:56 PM | PERMALINK

Ain't no disgrace to be poor - but might as well be.

Posted by: Davidov Veronica at May 2, 2004 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

Communism has nothing to do with love. Communism is an excellent hammer which we use to destroy our enemy.

Posted by: Gilmore Marc at May 3, 2004 12:18 AM | PERMALINK

Just as a solid rock is not shaken by the storm, even so the wise are not affected by praise or blame.

Posted by: Iturralde Lucilla at May 20, 2004 01:53 AM | PERMALINK

[In] mourning, it is better to err on the side of grief than on the side of formality.

Posted by: Scheller Nicole at June 2, 2004 08:33 PM | PERMALINK

What is all this name calling, are you all Rep.? Let the facts speak for themselves.

Posted by: DonHarv43 at June 26, 2004 02:46 PM | PERMALINK

Bush Lies
British Prime Minister Tony Blair stood side by side with his co-conspirator, President George W. Bush. Together, they declared that evidence from a report published by the UN International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) showed that Iraq was "six months away" from building nuclear weapons.

"I don't know what more evidence we need," crowed Bush.

Actually, any evidence would help - there was no such IAEA report.

Posted by: DonHarv43 at June 26, 2004 08:33 PM | PERMALINK

And more. Bush has amassed a pile of lies as of yet unanswered for -- the aluminum tubes, the WMD trailers, the fictious links between al-Qaeda and Saddam, misrepresentations concerning weapons inspections and the International Atomic Energy report alleging that Iraq was "six months away" from developing a nuclear weapon. All clear-cut lies.

Posted by: DonHarv43 at June 26, 2004 08:38 PM | PERMALINK

"Two legs baaaaaad, four legs gooooood."

It is funny to see the partisan divide. I could find just as many foolish things about Democrats on any number of other blogs.

People need to stop their partisan bickering, and see that the Republicans and the Democrats are all on the same team.

When it boils down, neither party gives a rip about any of us "regular" people. They only care about advancing themselves with wealth and power.

It is called an Oligarchy.

Posted by: Larry Thurman at June 29, 2004 01:05 PM | PERMALINK

Gratitude is the most exquisite form of courtesy.

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