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February 26, 2004 APOLOGIZE, PLEASE....OK, count me in as a Democrat who thinks Corrine Brown was out of line yesterday:
Calling our policy racist is OK — it's not my style, but it's within the bounds of common polemical language — but the rest isn't. It's offensive, and it's still offensive regardless of whether Brown is black, white, or Martian. She needs to apologize, and she needs to mean it. Posted by Kevin Drum at February 26, 2004 09:29 AM | TrackBackComments
This is worse than Trent Lott. Let's see what happens. Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 09:30 AM | PERMALINKIt's certainly more blatant than Trent Lott. Worse? Um. Anyway: yes, she needs to apologize. Posted by: Kenneth G. Cavness at February 26, 2004 09:31 AM | PERMALINKBeing of Hispanic ethnicity or Mexican national descent is not inconsistent with being of white race. And if he wasn't white, wouldn't being offended at being called white be evidence of racism? If you aren't a racist, being called a different race isn't an insult. (And if he is white and is offended, is it because he is a self-loathing white, or because he thinks "white" is an offensive racial epithet like "nigger"?). I mean, I'm mixed black, white, and american indian, and I'm not offended at people calling me hispanic, samoan/pacific islander, or whatever, which has happened surprisingly often. I'd be more offended if they called policies I supported for good, non-racist reasons "racist" than that they miscalled my race. The only reason the latter would be more offensive is if the policies actually were racist. That aside, the comment was way out of line. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 09:35 AM | PERMALINKAn apology is due, no question about it. Real democrats should not stand for racism in any form, from anyone. Posted by: frythem at February 26, 2004 09:36 AM | PERMALINKCompletely out of line. She should be reprimanded immediately and apologize for that trash talk. Posted by: Old Hat at February 26, 2004 09:38 AM | PERMALINKThis probably won't get played out in the media, but you know Rush will go after it. But I never really understood how the policy on Cuba could so differ the policy on Haiti. That place is in a lot of trouble right now and needs help. Posted by: sean at February 26, 2004 09:38 AM | PERMALINKWas Noriega implying that a Mexican-American couldn’t be racist? If so, he should apologize. Posted by: td at February 26, 2004 09:39 AM | PERMALINKI hope to hear again from the morons who insist that Blacks can't be racists. Edwards and Kerry would love to have a Sister Souljah moment. The comments were beyond stupid. "You all look alike" is about the most ignorant stuff I've heard in some time. Way to reach out for the Hispanic vote, dumbass. Not that the Hispanic vote is a unified monolith or anything... Posted by: jon at February 26, 2004 09:40 AM | PERMALINKI would like for Al and other of his ilk to take note that when Democrats make stupid, racist remarks, we lefties will call them on it and not be mealy-mouthed apologists for them (see also Lott, Trent; Barbour, Haley; Helms, Jesse). Posted by: Silence Dogood at February 26, 2004 09:42 AM | PERMALINK"you all look alike to me," Similar to what former Santa Barbara Mayor Sheila Lodge said when talking about the SB Police. The police slammed to the ground and handcuffed a member of the Harlem Globtrotters in broad daylight infront of hundreds of tourists in downtown SB. They thought he was the wanted suspect of a jewelry store robbery, although the suspect was said to be an African American about 5'7". The member of the Globetrotters, who was there to participate in a fundraising event at UCSB, was closer to 7'. Posted by: jillian at February 26, 2004 09:44 AM | PERMALINKLet me review - Kevin allows that policy can be racist, but that the people responsible for establishing and maintaining a racist policy are not racist. Hogwash! This is pure ethical escapism! Racist policies would not exist if not for racists and weasels. True ethics require that we are responsible for our actions. Posted by: notanumber at February 26, 2004 09:48 AM | PERMALINKExcept for the fact that she is correct --she should apologize for the remarks. But the same The hell was she thinking? She'd better make that apology a good one. She facing a challenge in the primary? Posted by: Laertes at February 26, 2004 09:49 AM | PERMALINKAnnie: Just because we've been graced by assholes and hypocrites as the face of the Republican Party around here doesn't mean that Corrine Brown wasn't being offensively racist. I thank the Republicans and partisans for pointing out the trouble. They can go back to ignoring racism again, now. Posted by: Kenneth G. Cavness at February 26, 2004 09:51 AM | PERMALINKHe's faking it. Noriega worked for Jesse Helms. He is a bad bad man. Racist wasn't going far enough. She needs to apologize for not going far enough. And our policy on Haiti is worse than racist, it is practically genocidal. Posted by: Ananna at February 26, 2004 09:58 AM | PERMALINKCorrines comments were way out of line. Her facts are only half right. W doesn't much care about Haiti because it is black, but the other half is it has no oil. Posted by: veritas at February 26, 2004 10:00 AM | PERMALINKI thought Noriega was in Prison. Good for you Kevin. I was pissed about Lott's remarks myself and I vote republican. I helped vote out Bob Barr. I was happy that McKinney got voted out as well. Down with the Extremists, down with them all. Posted by: James Stephenson at February 26, 2004 10:04 AM | PERMALINKYeah, that was totally out of line. Sounds like she has some ahem issues she needs to work out... Posted by: ChrisL at February 26, 2004 10:10 AM | PERMALINKThe argument that "if a white man said that about blacks you'd sure think it was out of line!" is not always true. There are things that a powerful majority should not say or do that a minority can. In this case, however, I think the comparison is apt. If Jesse Helms had called someone's policy racist, castigated the people in charge as "a bunch of black guys," and then blown off complaints with "you all look alike to me," we'd be appropriately outraged. Pretty much the same deal here. I'm not saying Brown needs to be kicked out of Congress or anything, especially since I'm not aware of any previous transgressions, but she obviously let her temper get the better of her, she said some offensive things, and she ought to apologize. Posted by: Kevin Drum at February 26, 2004 10:11 AM | PERMALINKI agree with Kevin that Ms. Brown's comments directed at Mr. Noriega were out of line, but the overall criticism of U.S. policy is right on the money. It is racist and inhumane. Unfortunately, her personal attacks will no doubt distract people's attention from that very real issue. I blogged a bit on this earlier. It barely scratches the surface, but there is a lot of perspective on this crisis that I don't see the mainstream media even bothering to touch. If Ms. Brown had directed all of the force of her remarks against the policy and the history of U.S. involvement, maybe it would have generated some real interest where it could do the most good. Posted by: crockmeister at February 26, 2004 10:12 AM | PERMALINKWe've all said intemperate things when angry. The hard part is apologizing later. She needs to do that. Posted by: Mary Alice at February 26, 2004 10:19 AM | PERMALINKBush and his "bunch of white men" never apologize for anything. Fuck 'em. I don't know anything about Noriega, but if he was good enough for Bush, he's probably not that good a guy. And the policy is bullshit. Brown should to apologize to her fellow Dems and constituents for her outburst. We expect better from our representatives, and she should be held to that standard. But as far as apologizing to anyone associated with this Administration or Republican leadership, get back to me when guys like Rod Paige are shown the door. Posted by: Mr Furious at February 26, 2004 10:24 AM | PERMALINKMy italics got a bit out of hand up there... Posted by: Mr Furious at February 26, 2004 10:25 AM | PERMALINKGood grief, I hope she apologizes. Not for her fundamental assessment of the policy, but for the personal, racist invective. Nothing like giving the other side ammo... Posted by: NTodd at February 26, 2004 10:27 AM | PERMALINKWow, that is pretty breathtaking. I think she should apologize and resign as well. Also, this: "Noriega later told Brown: "As a Mexican-American, I deeply resent being called a racist and branded a white man," according to three participants." I'd say he was saying he resents being mischaracterized, not that being white is a bad thing. Posted by: Eric at February 26, 2004 10:28 AM | PERMALINKShe needs to apologize for the tone of her rhetoric. But I feel her frustration. Also, there's nothing contradictory about a Mexican-American having European features and looking white. There's a polarization in Mexican society - and possibly among Mexican-American groups - that is similar to the dynamics among other ethnic and racial groups, in that the lighter the skin, the better the treatment. I have little sympathy for him suddenly holding his ethnicity out as a shield. I am dubious about whether she meant 'you all look alike to me' to mean white people or Republicans. I lean toward the latter. I also agree with the person upthread who said it is contralogical to declare a policy racist without indicating those who fostered it as racist. Posted by: spacezebra at February 26, 2004 10:32 AM | PERMALINKI don't know where you've been, but to many on the Left, a minority who is Republican isn't a "real" minority at all. In fact, by definition they are traitors to their race. I can't speak for Corrine Brown, but I know people that, as far as they are concerned, see Bush's entire cabinet as "white." Heck, I can see a couple of them right here. Do I really have to document the rank abuse and insults that have been heaped on people like Powell and Rice, not to mention black conservatives as a group? Posted by: tbrosz at February 26, 2004 10:32 AM | PERMALINKI'm trying to think of a case (other than identical twins or triplets) where "you all look alike to me" would be an appropriate retort. I'm confused about the 'racism' of the Haiti policy. Ill-advised? Maybe. Not well thought out? Quite possibly. Calloused? Possibly. But racist? I would be surprised. What should a (presumably non-racist) policy toward Haiti look like?
And is our current policy dramatically different than Clinton's? (That
isn't Clinton bashing by the way. I'm assuming merely that you aren't
calling 'our first back president' racist.) At the risk of being misunderstood, let me suggest that attacking
US foreign policy with respect to Haiti [or anywhere else for that
matter] as "racist" seems to me beside the point, and pointless [since
accusers and defenders of the policy involved will disagree strongly
about whether the policy is racist or not. Especially given the at
times absurd expansion in the past decade or so of what some think
constitutes racism.] “Do I really have to document the rank abuse and insults that have been heaped on people like Powell and Rice, not to mention black conservatives as a group?” No, no, no. There are no groups, only individuals. Why do people
like tbrosz insist on using vile slurs such as “black conservatives” to
separate conservatives who happen to be black from their fellow
conservatives? tbrosz is spot on: Powell, Rice, and people the likes of Armstrong Williams, reside in a very contentious place in the minds of many black people, as regards their race. That is, they aren't. Posted by: spacezebra at February 26, 2004 10:38 AM | PERMALINKDoes anybody realize the U.S. is tacitly supporting a military overthrow of a democratically elected leader in Haiti? Posted by: noam chimpsky at February 26, 2004 10:38 AM | PERMALINKDoes anyone else think "you all look the same to me" may have just been a little bit of (admittedly impolitic) snark? I think she was just trying to give "the man" a little taste of his own medicine. Posted by: Hoyt Pollard at February 26, 2004 10:43 AM | PERMALINKI have read that Aristide has made common cause with a number of gangsters in Haiti and that a large part of the population is out of work. On the other hand at least one of the rebel leaders has been accused of running a death squad. Aristide may not be a great statesman, but he may be a better alternative than that. It is similar to the 1994 situation, when the individuals that seized power were School of the Americas alumni. Another real tradegy is the situation in the Congo. I read recently that several million people had been killed as a result of the ongoing conflict in the blighted nation. It is certainly a human rights disaster. Apparently, the UN peacekeeping force in this nation is hopelessly undermanned. Her rhetoric was over the top. I can't help but wonder why things
like Haiti and the Congo don't get more attention when the press finds
the time to cover General Abizaid's every bowel movement. If the
pattern is consistent enough, I can certainly see why someone would call
this neglect racist. "Brown then told him "you all look alike to me," the participants said." unacceptable and outrageous. she should apologize. And apologize clearly without any of the bulls*&# qualifiers: "taken out of context" "not what I really meant" or any of that! (see Sec. Paige) Posted by: Dan at February 26, 2004 10:49 AM | PERMALINKCirrinne Brown is a typical liberal Democrat He mentality is the mentality created by liberal racial policies and their soft bigotry of low expectations. No one in the Democrat Party will call her to task....end of story. Posted by: keiser at February 26, 2004 10:53 AM | PERMALINKI agree with Rep. Brown. But yeah - she should apologize. Posted by: RoguePlanet at February 26, 2004 10:58 AM | PERMALINK....Noriega later told Brown: "As a Mexican-American, I deeply resent being called a racist and branded a white man," As a white chick, I deeply resent that Noriega deeply resents being "branded a white man." I demand apologies! Posted by: RoguePlanet at February 26, 2004 11:01 AM | PERMALINKDoes anybody realize the U.S. is tacitly supporting a military overthrow of a democratically elected leader in Haiti? Just like we did in Venezuela, under this president (not that it lasted)? Why does Bush hate democracy? Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 11:01 AM | PERMALINKKeiser, As for the rest of your point: Absent any actual facts about Rep. Brown why accuse her of being the beneficiary of any unwarranted handouts or having risen above her station in life? Is she your representative? Do you know any details about her life, work, grades, struggles, achievements? She said something intemperate and she has been roundly criticized for it here by card carrying democrats. That is more than I've heard from high ranking republicans about Rod Paige et al. aimai Posted by: aimai at February 26, 2004 11:12 AM | PERMALINKWell, there are two things: * The accusation of racism as being the prime motivator in US Haiti policy. This is true, and has been since...forever....including past administrations. * The "You all look alike" comment is racist and ugly, and she needs to apologise. So, an "I'm sorry that I said that all white folk look the same, it was wrong." would be good and noble. An, "I'm sorry if he was offended", is a weases not apology, and bad. If she said, "I'm sorry, but when I see a racist, all I see is a racist, no matter what language his grand parents spoke." would be a hoot, but that would not be the high road. Posted by: Matthew Saroff at February 26, 2004 11:13 AM | PERMALINKThe problem with Haiti is that there are now no unambiguous "good guys." Aristide really did preside over a rigged set of elections in 2000, marred further by violence. The opposition really does have some shady characters. But note that the US has actually been trying to *save* Aristide's job by having remain as President while joining a power sharing agreement with the opposition. France, the erstwhile darling of the American left, has been calling for Aristide to resign immediately. That may eventually happen, but it can't be said the US hasn't made an effort to stave it off. The only further step we could take now would be to send a military force to fight the opposition. Are worries about intervening militarily in a civil war on behalf of a leader with tarnished legitimacy automatically racist? Posted by: rd at February 26, 2004 11:13 AM | PERMALINKI looked at Roger Noriega, and he looks pretty white to me. So why would he be offended as branded being a white man? Posted by: Dan the Man at February 26, 2004 11:13 AM | PERMALINKIn Stephen King's Dark Tower series, there is a character named Susannah. Susannah is black. She is the result of the fusion of two personalities she was channelling as a result of dissociative identity disorder (mislabeled as schizophrenia by Stephen King). The two personalities were named Odetta and Detta. Odetta was a nice socially aware woman, and Detta would of been made nicer by having rabies. In particular, Detta is very racist towards whites. She routinely dares them to try and rape her ("Honky Mofo's goan come try rape me wit' da little white peckers? Jus you try it Detta bite those honky peckers right off"). She insessantly speaks like this. I think Detta used the "you all look alike to me" line. Posted by: TomK at February 26, 2004 11:17 AM | PERMALINKRep. Brown did say something outrageous, and she should effing apologize RIGHT NOW. Abjectly. To all my fellow liberals making excuses for her --- I'm disgusted to share beliefs with you. Posted by: Brooklyn Sword Style at February 26, 2004 11:18 AM | PERMALINKOn the other hand, studies routinely show that people of one race have a hard time telling people of a different race apart on the basis of facial features, so when she said "You all look alike to me" she might not of been lying. Posted by: TomK at February 26, 2004 11:25 AM | PERMALINKcmdicely, I'm not going to wade into the issue of what the appropriate U.S. policy in Haiti should be - but I would like to point out that just because a leader is democratically elected doesn't mean it should NEVER be U.S. policy to oppose that leadership. For example, if Aristide started butchering people by the thousands I don't think it would be out of line for the U.S. to promote a policy that he needs to be removed. Democratically elected leaders should be give the benefit of a doubt - but at some point doubt is removed as an issue. Two examples of democratically elected leaders (pretty much) who I think U.S. policy should/did oppose: Arafat and Hitler. (Note: I'm not equating any world leader to Hitler; I'm merely arguing that just because someone was democratically elected in the past shouldn't put them and their post-election policies beyond the realm of criticism or policy change.) Posted by: Greg at February 26, 2004 11:27 AM | PERMALINKAlso, there's nothing contradictory about a Mexican-American having European features and looking white. And being White in the exact same sense as anyone else is White, too. Inasmuch as races exist and "White" is one of them, there are quite a few Mexicans and Mexican-Americans who are White. Saying you can't be white and Mexican is like saying you can't be white and South African. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 11:29 AM | PERMALINKOur policy with regard to Haiti is racist? Are you insane?!? I can cetainly understand the Bush Admnistration's reluctance to intevene there. Why? Because the problems there cannot be solved. Haiti is a hopeless basket case. Aid organizations have been working there for scores of decades now. Nothing has changed, and unless the Haitians themselves decide that they want to stop slaughtering one another, nothing ever will. Yes, we can stop the slaughter. We can lavish foreign aid on the country. But it's just a gaping maw which will consume whatever resources we throw at it. There is absolutely no indication that Haiti will ever become a stable, prosperous democracy. It's hopless. And please, stop it with these School of the Americas references. What, you think our policy toward Haiti is imperialist? Do you believe that US corporations are exploiting the Haitians and making money hand over fist down there? In order to protect our commercial intersts, we are sponsoring right-wing dictators becuase we are afraid that populists with the support of the peasants, like Aristide, will jeapordize our financial intersts? Haiti is the POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. We have no financial interests down there. Please! Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 11:30 AM | PERMALINKAre you kidding. Roger Noriega is the ring leader in the overtrow of the elected President of Haiti. Noriega has been running around the world getting nations to tow the US line of removing the President of Haiti. The CIA and Defense spy group has armed these killers and sent them into Haiti. The US has never forgiven the Haiti president from disbanding the Haitian Army. How can we protect US business in Haiti if we don't have an Army to buy off. So Cong Brown used a few words that offend but where are the offended few and why are they not raising a hue and cry about the people of Haiti that have died and will most likely die if this coup keeps up. I don't use the word terrorist becuase it means nothing, but this band of killers in Haiti set up by the US are plain and simply murders. History shows this but with the good old US media you will never know. Posted by: hjl at February 26, 2004 11:36 AM | PERMALINK"Haiti is the POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. We have no financial interests down there." And there is the real reason Bush isn't charging in there, there is nothing in it for US business...unlike Iraq, which is loaded with oil. Posted by: Eric at February 26, 2004 11:37 AM | PERMALINK
That said, and agreeing that Brown was right in her criticism of policy, she needs to apologize becase however she meant that-seriously, or ironically, or as a vieled accusation of "race betrayal" it was reprehensible. In many ways, it negates and nullifies her criticism of racist policy, because she's apealing to the same ideas and conceptions of race as authorial and determinative which racist policies are predicated on. She needs to apologize to Noriega, even if he is a bad, bad man, and she owes us an apology too, for making him look good. This is whay people like bush do put "brown fces in high places": it gives them cover. Posted by: Urk at February 26, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINKHjl- What US businesses in Haiti? Care to name a few? Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINKJoe I am not sure why you are so outraged by a School of the Americas reference. It is a matter of fact that Raul Cedras, a key figure in the 1991 coup that ousted Aristide was a School of the Americas alumni. I find most of what you write very reasoned, but this post is absolute nonsense. Why does stating this simple fact imply that I am claiming that our policy towards Haiti is imperialist? Why does it imply that I am advocating an armed intervention on behalf of Aristide? Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 11:53 AM | PERMALINKI would remind you that a lot of Republicans were extremely reluctant to intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo, where many people are white. It's not because they are racist. It's becuase they realized that Bosnia is a quagmire. We're going to be there forever (well, either we'll be there or the Europeans will be there.) If we were to leave tomorrow, the slaughter would resume immedaitely. None of the hatred or the underlying problems have been solved; they've just been put on ice because heavily armed Americans are patrollnig the place. Now, as it happens, Kosovo went well. We were able to secure the place without a single American casualty. But there was no guaranteeing that this would happen. We could have faced a guerilla insurgency. You just never know. There is always an element of uncertainty in these things. Haiti is no different. No different at all. If we send troops, we'll either need to station them in Haiti for the next 50 years, or if we withdraw, we'll simply have to return in 5-10 years. And no matter what we do, Haiti isn't going to look like Oklahoma any time soon. It'll still be a godforsaken hellhole. Now, in the end, maybe deploying troops is the right thing to do. But you can hardly call someone who is reluctant to do this a "racist." That's a totally unwarranted charge. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 11:53 AM | PERMALINKRoland- I don't deny that he was a graduate of the School of the Americas. What I am saying is that School of the Americas is almost always used by critics of US foreign policy as a symbol of US imperialism. There is no imperialism in Haiti. We have no business interests to protect there, and there is nothing to "exploit." Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 11:55 AM | PERMALINKJoe There is often much to criticize about the School of the Americas. I can certainly see how someone might level the charge of racism. The US took great pains to intervene in Southeastern Europe where the residents, although they speak a different language, look strikingly similar to the white majority in the US. The US does not intervene in Rwanda, the Congo, or Haiti. I realize this is certainly not an airtight case and involves the foreign policy calculations of various administrations. The point is, it is not unreasonable for someone to make such a charge. In fact, I seem to remember similar charges made against those who did not want to intervene in Iraq. Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 12:09 PM | PERMALINKI agree that this was offensive. Sneering at somebody for being white, and a man, is racist/sexist, as it would be for any other race and for the opposite sex. There seems to be some weird sense among some on the left that it's ok to sneer at "white men." It's not ok. It's derogatory, bigoted and offensive. Posted by: DanM at February 26, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINKRoland, I see what you mean, but you are really overstating your point. We've ALREADY intervened in Haiti. It was a disaster. A total disaster. What makes you think that things will go any better this time? We've intervened in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua (well, at least some loyal Americans tried to do the right thing there...:), Lebanon, Vietnam, South Korea, Colombia...the list goes on and on and on. It is simply not true to say that whenever nonwhites start killng one another, the US turns a blind eye. Nor is it fair to say that the US only intervenes in order to protect its business interests. None of the countries I have listed above is principally inhabited by caucasians. With the exception of Iraq and the Dominican Republic, US business interests in these countries are likewise insignificant. There was certianly no money to be made in Greneda, Somalia, the Korea of 1948, or Nicaragua so you can't say that our policy was driven by United Fruit or Standard Oil. Again, I do see what you mean, but I think you are overstating your case. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 12:18 PM | PERMALINKDoes anyone else think "you all look the same to me" may have just been a little bit of (admittedly impolitic) snark? I think she was just trying to give "the man" a little taste of his own medicine. i laughed, i thought it was a sarcastic in your face joke back at them. jeez, you guys are being awfully politically correct around here! the policies are incredibly racist, and i don't see the problem with calling a spade a spade. yes, i made a terribly incorrect joke, to make a point, like i think the good woman herself was doing. it's people like you guys that give fodder to the meme the left has no sense of humor. lighten up! Posted by: skippy at February 26, 2004 12:32 PM | PERMALINKWow. I didn't realize that white USAmerican progressives have determined that Mexican-Americans can be neither racist nor white. I must have missed a memo.... The fact is that Roger Noriega is both white and a racist. He attempted to deny this by fallaciously invoking his national origin, and Corrine Brown simply called him on it. She has nothing to apologize for. It's about time you progressives stopped taking your cues from Rush Limbuagh. The issue here is not Ms. Brown's comments -- it is US policy toward Haiti. Posted by: Brian Ritzel at February 26, 2004 12:36 PM | PERMALINKOf course the Bush Administration is racist; of course Haiti needs a good, two-sided, double-edged ass-kicking, and Corrine Brown, of course, is a fool with the manners of a linebacker. This kind of charm offensive will have her natural enemies wondering anew if William Lloyd Garrison went too far. Posted by: Harry LIme at February 26, 2004 12:36 PM | PERMALINKWith the exception of Iraq and the Dominican Republic, US business interests in these countries are likewise insignificant. Panama Canal? Posted by: Anarch at February 26, 2004 12:41 PM | PERMALINKWaiiit a minute.....Noriega "deeply resents" being "branded a white man"? And just what does he think is so bad about white men? The simple fact is that Corrine Brown was telling the truth. Our policy has been racist, the intent is to prevent the emergence of a successful government run by the descendants of slaves, for over a century Haiti has been forced to make payments for factories lost by the white rulers when the slaves revolted, and the same men who ran Iran-Contra are back in the WH, making Haiti into a drug transhipment haven for more Iran-contra type frolics. Oh, and the guy who overturned the Iran-Contra convictions? He's in charge of the Whitewash Commission that was set up to head off an investigation of who lied about Iraq. That, in a nutshell, is why many black people don't regard Rice or Powell (or Thomas) as brothers. Posted by: serial catowner at February 26, 2004 12:42 PM | PERMALINKNo question that the gentle lady's remarks were intemperate, but maybe she'd just finished reading Michael Ramirez' cartoon in last Saturday's (2/21) LA Times. In it he shows a tidal wave about to break over what appears to be the beachfront at a famous resort in a Southeastern state. The droplets of water in the wave are composed of little black -- um, silhouetted -- people that are thoughtfully labeled, "Haitian Refugees." It struck me as appealing to xenophobic prejudice at best, but for sure the closest thing to overt racism I'd seen in the mainstream press in a long, long time. Guess I agree with those who have a hard to swallowing a line like, "Well, I'm in favor of a racist policy, but I'm not a racist myself." Posted by: Jim Strain at February 26, 2004 12:51 PM | PERMALINKJoe, I submit that your definition of imperialism may be a little to strictly drawn. A country (like the US) need not have a direct financial interest in an object state to act imperialistically. It may be a set of actions based on strategic or security interests and not pure commerce. In some of those states you listed, our government was not happy with what it considered radical governments. So, we sent in the Marines, the CIA or both. Posted by: Keith G at February 26, 2004 12:53 PM | PERMALINKAnarch- I deliberately left Panama off the list. However, it may interest you to know that the US has since vacated all of its bases in the Panama Canal Zone. And while we do have business interests in Panama, the same cannot be
said of Grenda, Haiti, Somalia, Nicaragua, 1948 Korea, Lebanon,
Afghanistan...it's really not fair to say that the US only intervenes
when whites are threatened or when economic interests are at stake. Jim- Yeah, right. As if we'd be THRILLED if flood of White Russian or Czech refugees suddenly appeared on our shores. There is nothing inherently racist about not wanting to absorb a massive influx of dirt-poor immigrants who (a) do not speak English, (b) have no marketable skills whatsoever, (c) are likely to cost a great deal of money, (d) will culturally clash with the residents of communities that the settle in. This might be selfish and unenlightened -- though I admit to sharing some of these feelings -- but it is not racist. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 12:59 PM | PERMALINKAnd while we do have business interests in Panama, the same cannot
be said of Grenda, Haiti, Somalia, Nicaragua, 1948 Korea, Lebanon,
Afghanistan...it's really not fair to say that the US only intervenes
when whites are threatened or when economic interests are at stake. ISTR considerable commercial interest in an Afghan oil pipeline. Anti-Sandinista leaders I deliberately left Panama off the list. However, it may interest you to know that the US has since vacated all of its bases in the Panama Canal Zone. The Panama Canal remains an important US "business interest" in the sense that it is pretty vital to our trade. And, as you note, we withdrew after the invasion, rather than before. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINKI don't deny that he was a graduate of the School of the Americas. What I am saying is that School of the Americas is almost always used by critics of US foreign policy as a symbol of US imperialism. IME, its usually used by critics as a symbol of the US training regional military leaders in the art of popular repression, because that's quite a bit of what it did. The argument that the purpose of this is imperialistic is less than universal, though common, but secondary to the central problem. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 01:14 PM | PERMALINKJoe While I broadly agree that the US intervenes abroad for a variety of reasons, I am not so sure that I think it is necessary to show that the US intervenes every time whites or financial interests are threatened and never intervenes otherwise to demonstrate that the US foreign policy is racist. This type of proof is not obtainable. Nor does our non action in Haiti demonstrate that the US has a racist foreign policy. I simply think that it is reasonable for someone to examine the recent foreign policy decisions of the US government and conclude that when confronted by crises of similar magnitude, that the US will be more likely to intervene when white people are being killed rather than brown ones. I realize that the case in Iraq is different, but, at least in principle, there were other compelling reasons to oust Hussein other than his human rights record. Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 02:04 PM | PERMALINKI simply think that it is reasonable for someone to examine the
recent foreign policy decisions of the US government and conclude that
when confronted by crises of similar magnitude, that the US will be more
likely to intervene when white people are being killed rather than
brown ones. Can you please outline the "recent foreign policy decisions" in which white people were being killed and we intervened? I'd like to test out your hypothesis, and I'd need to know the data you are working with. Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 02:22 PM | PERMALINKThe Grenada invasion had much less to do with protecting medical students than it did with countering Cuban influence in the region. (And kicking some butt, of course.) Posted by: englishprofessor at February 26, 2004 02:29 PM | PERMALINKI'm not saying Brown needs to be kicked out of Congress or anything, especially since I'm not aware of any previous transgressions, HAHAHA!! Kevin, if you only knew. Her gerrymandered seat is so safe, she can get away with just about anything. It also diminishes minority participation in other districts, ensuring the election of people like Ric Keller over the respected and popular Linda Chapin, the former Orange County Chair. Check out this article about Brown in Counterpunch. I will plead guilty to hypocrisy; I would definitely vote for her against someone as revolting as Tom Feeney. Posted by: Gabriel at February 26, 2004 02:41 PM | PERMALINKRoland, I simply think that it is reasonable for someone to examine the recent foreign policy decisions of the US government and conclude that when confronted by crises of similar magnitude, that the US will be more likely to intervene when white people are being killed rather than brown ones. You may be right. The trouble is that you could say exactly the same of practically any other nation, or indeed of the UN. As far as I can see, the UN's ordinary reaction to genocidal civil war in Africa is to wait until the carnage is over and then set up refugee camps. Posted by: Michelle Dulak at February 26, 2004 02:51 PM | PERMALINKAl Sure. Consider the two examples of Kosovo and Rwanda. They both happened within the last 10 years. The US saw fit to intervene in Kosovo. The US did not intervene in Rwanda. If memory serves, the French eventually intervened in Rwanda. At that point, 250,000 were dead. At present, there is a war raging in the Congo that has claimed several million lives. To my knowledge, Presidents Bush and Clinton have said nothing publicly about this during the last two administrations. If this were going on in a region like Central or Southeastern Europe, we probably would have already intervened. As it is, this issue is rarely mentioned in newspapers. As another example, not quite one that you requested, one can take the US position vis-a-vis South Africa during the era of apartheid in that country. I have no proof that the US would have taken some action if the situation were reversed, but I suspect that this is the case. My history may be incorrect here, but I believe President Reagan vetoed measures that the Congress wished to take against that nation. On the other side of the equation, you have the unsuccessful intervention in Somalia, where the benefits were judged to be out of propertion of the costs. In addition, you have our re-installing Aristide in 1994. My perception at the time was that this move, alhtough in support of a democratically elected leader, was widely opposed. Again, I don't think I am convinced that US foreign policy is inherently racist. I do certainly see why someone looking at those facts could reach such a conclusion. Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 02:55 PM | PERMALINKThere are really two comments to address. The second comment, that about "not being able to tell you apart", is a little more difficult to comprehend. Was she attempting to make some kind of joke, an inversion of the usual 'can't tell blacks apart' line? If so, it certainly is a racist thing to say and she should apologize immediately. But, AI, are you seriously going to say that this is worse than Trent
Lott's advocation of segregation? Please try to take some stock of the
context in which things are said. Is the labeling of hispanics as
"white" really a common phenomenon? Can this comment be linked to a
underlying anti-hispanic voting record? Does this statement, in short,
carry any kind of emotional texture, any kind of appeal to latent
passions that are seething beneath the surface of American political
life? The Lott comment did, after all. For a comment to be racist it
must be uttered in a context where the force of the racial rhetoric hits
home with people. Otherwise, its just a rude comment about someone's
appearance. Michelle Dulak I tend to agree with you. The UN mission in the Congo consisted of about 5,000 peacekeepers. Compare this with the 28,000 that were in Bosnia. Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 02:59 PM | PERMALINKOh, she's just blowing off some steam. I'm steamed too so I don't blame her. As a white person myself, I often refer to Bush and his cohorts as a bunch of white devils. No big deal, I say. They are! Posted by: LM at February 26, 2004 03:00 PM | PERMALINKRoland, About the only examples of "intervening" in a "white" country in the past few decades are Bosnia and Kosovo. I can't think of any other such instances - can you? And if so, is it possible that those instances were simply aberations of one particular President? Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 03:07 PM | PERMALINKThought experiment: Corinne Brown apologizes and is sincere. She realizes that her consciousness needs to be raised so she attends sensitivity training classes in order to get a better understanding of Hispanic (and white) issues. Now what? Will Tom DeLay see the light? Will Trent Lott? Will Jesse Helms' family? Posted by: tristero at February 26, 2004 03:10 PM | PERMALINKRoland, I should have added that the whole matter is cruelly complicated. The UN turns a blind eye to white deaths in Chechnya just as it does to black deaths in Sudan. On the whole, though, I suspect that the largest factor is the race of the perpetrators rather than the race of the victims. There's no other real explanation for the attention South Africa did get, and Israel still gets, from the UN, even while millions were and are being slaughtered elsewhere on the continent. Posted by: Michelle Dulak at February 26, 2004 03:20 PM | PERMALINKAI- However, you have to at least grant that the American media has been much more willing to report on violent events that happen in "white" countries than on those that happen in other places, particularily Africa. The non-existant coverage of the war in the Congo, which has killed 2-3 million (even this wide discrepency is telling) in the last few years is a good example. Meanwhile, whenever a Palestinian blows himself up in Israel (or, to be fair, whenever an Israeli missile kills Palestianian civilians) its front page news. Is this a sign of "racism"? I'm not sure that's the word to use. But there is a widespread sense that, even in matters of human rights, certain places seem to matter more than others. This is shameful, even if it is a simple geographic and not a racial bias per se. I think it is important to remember that racism and xenophobia are two different things. Racism in America developed over many centuries and is a deeply-ingrained part of our everyday lives, whether we like it or not. Blacks feel the presence of racism every day, whether or not anyone is actively "being racist". Racism is a very familiar, also intimate thing in America. On the other hand, the lack of concern for the victims in the Congo is better adressed as a form of xenophobia. Yeah, they might be "black", but I don't think that is why we don't care. It is much more subtle; after all only those who know absolutely nothing about Africa think of Africans as having much in common with American blacks. The lived texture of racism is missing. You see the same thing in the behavior of Russians that are racist against blacks--there is a kind of thinness to their hatred (not so with Russian anti-semites, of course).... Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 03:29 PM | PERMALINKAl I suspect it depends on what your definition of "aberration" is. In answer to your question, I cannot think of any other examples of the US directly intervening on behalf of whites in the last few years, unless you count the South Africa situation in the 80's. I do think the 2 examples of Kosovo and Rwanda are instructive because of their similarity. If you are trying to blame Clinton for not acting in Rwanda I would agree. My belief is that he acted honorably in Kosovo. Posted by: Roland at February 26, 2004 03:32 PM | PERMALINKI suspect it depends on what your definition of "aberration" is. In answer to your question, I cannot think of any other examples of the US directly intervening on behalf of whites in the last few years, unless you count the South Africa situation in the 80's. The Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Serbians (Bosnian and otherwise), and ethnic Albanians in the Balkans are all white. The elites (on both sides in 1991) in Panama are, I suspect, like similarly situated groups in the rest of Latin America, largely, though not exclusively, white. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 03:37 PM | PERMALINKBut, AI, are you seriously going to say that this is worse than
Trent Lott's advocation of segregation? Please try to take some stock of
the context in which things are said. Yes, I do think this was worse than Trent Lott -- precisely because of the context. Brown made a racist remark to a specific person -- to his face. Lott did not insult anyone in particular; in fact, his comment was meant as a joke. Brown's remark was far, FAR worse. Is the labeling of hispanics as "white" really a common phenomenon? Yes. There is, in fact, a term for this, which I will not repeat. Can this comment be linked to a underlying anti-hispanic voting record? Yes. For example, she voted against limiting bilingual education and against free trade with Chile. Does this statement, in short, carry any kind of emotional
texture, any kind of appeal to latent passions that are seething beneath
the surface of American political life? Yes. Brown is a bigot who made a racist remark to a hispanic. Her remark was far worse than Trent Lott's remark. She should be censured accordingly. Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 03:39 PM | PERMALINKThe trouble is that you could say exactly the same of practically any other nation, or indeed of the UN. As far as I can see, the UN's ordinary reaction to genocidal civil war in Africa is to wait until the carnage is over and then set up refugee camps. The US is usually among those blocking the UN from acting in such cases, so the UN policy is largely a product of the US policy. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 03:39 PM | PERMALINKFor example, she voted against limiting bilingual education and against free trade with Chile. Which of these is supposed to be anti-hispanic? Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 03:40 PM | PERMALINK"Why does Bush hate democracy?" Bush? For at least the past century we have consistently acted to quash or quell popular rule in undeveloped or developing nations. Right-wing managed "democracies" and dictatorships are OK, just as long as they don't do anything vaguely socialistic, and serve US business and military "interests". So the proper question is, why do WE hate democracy? Posted by: Robert E at February 26, 2004 03:44 PM | PERMALINKI'm trying to think of a case (other than identical twins or triplets) where "you all look alike to me" would be an appropriate retort. It can work. My husband kept saying Kerry when he meant Edwards, and vice versa. When I suggested that our conversations would have fewer confused pauses if he could stop doing that, he shot back, "Well, they all look alike to me!" I nearly collapsed laughing. Oh. The joke? You see... he's Chinese. Which of these is supposed to be anti-hispanic? Yes. Both. Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 03:55 PM | PERMALINKJoe Schmoe (et al): I too agree that it's an overstatement to say that US foreign policy is inherently racist or driven solely by business interests. Having grown up in Asia, however, it was remarkable how often one could regard our foreign policy in that light; I'm thinking particularly of Tiananmen here, though there are others. At any rate, most expats possessed a level of (I think justified) cynicism about foreign policy that is uncommon in this country. As for the question of the "white conflicts" -- Bosnia and Kosovo are of course the canonical examples -- how many "white conflicts" have there actually been in the last ten or twenty years? I don't recall any others (certainly not "European white conflicts"), which means I think we've essentially intervened in, well, all of them. Of course, part of the problem here is the mutability of concept of race and ethnicity. Are Mexicans white? Are mulattos white? Mestizos? At what point does a European immigrant to Latin America become "Latinized" (i.e. no longer European), and does that impact their "race"? There aren't any good answers to those questions because race is basically an arbitrary social construct; two hundred years ago, Ben Franklin lumped the Swedes in the "swarthy peoples of Europe", and two hundred years from now we might consider everyone from coastal regions to be "Neo-Phoenician" or whatever. Any attempt to carefully analyze the question must therefore take into account not only what US policy was, and how it related to our interests, but also what racial distinctions were drawn by the people making the decisions... and that's a very subtle, and very different, topic entirely. Posted by: Anarch at February 26, 2004 04:00 PM | PERMALINKThe Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Serbians (Bosnian and otherwise), and ethnic Albanians in the Balkans are all white. As I said - the only instances in which we intervened in a conflict in the past few decades to help whites are Bosnia and Kosovo. If you want to say those interventions were therefore "racist", well, I'll direct you to the President who decided to intervene there. The elites (on both sides in 1991) in Panama are, I suspect, like
similarly situated groups in the rest of Latin America, largely, though
not exclusively, white. And the rest of the population is largely black. What's your point - that democracy is only for elites? Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 04:00 PM | PERMALINKAI-- Opposing free trade with Chile is far shakier. Why is that racist? If Brazil opposes the FTZA, does that mean Lula is racist against Chileans? (or Americans, for that matter) Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 04:03 PM | PERMALINKSo you're willing to say that all your conservative friends that are opposed to bilingual education are racists? Just the opposite. Brown's vote was PRO-bilingual ed... hence my citation of it as an example of anti-hispanic bias. Posted by: Al at February 26, 2004 04:05 PM | PERMALINKOne thing that we are not acknowledging is the sheer scale of the problem in places like the Congo and Haiti. Bosnia and Kosovo were developed nations. The populations are literate, there is no AIDS epidemic, economic development is a realistic possibility... You certainly can't say the same about the Congo or Haiti. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 04:13 PM | PERMALINKBrown's vote was PRO-bilingual ed... hence my citation of it as an example of anti-hispanic bias. This totally boggles my mind. So then, Canada's push for bilingual education is anti-French? Um. Sorry, I don't get it. Posted by: Canadian Reader at February 26, 2004 04:17 PM | PERMALINKcmdicely: The US is usually among those blocking the UN from acting in such cases [genocidal civil wars in Africa], so the UN policy is largely a product of the US policy. I see. Can you provide examples here? The UN push to intervene in Sudan . . . Congo . . . Rwanda . . . um, which one did we veto exactly? The last UN resolution authorizing the use of force that I remember involved Cote d'Ivoire, and naturally we vetoed that . . . no, wait a minute, we didn't. How strange. Posted by: Michelle Dulak at February 26, 2004 04:22 PM | PERMALINKAI, What does saying something to someone's face have to do with anything? In my mind, this merely raises the ambiguity of the statement as it is written. Anyway, I think we must separate MOTIVES from IMPACT. The ambiguity of Brown's statement is what limits its impact and, thus, its importance. Is this comment racist against hispanics or whites? Or some weird combination of the two? I'm willing to believe that Brown could, in fact, have some deep-seeded racist feelings about hispanics or whites, but it would be difficult to understand where this particular epithet would come from. I have never heard an epithet like this anywhere, so its a bit like hearing someone say that "Albanians" and "Italians" all look alike. I mean, that's racist in some way, but who gives a shit? Isn't it more likely that she meant "ALL REPUBLICANS LOOK ALIKE"? Joe Schmoe-- Actually, I'm not even going to comment on your post. Please read it over again yourself. I dont even understand your arguement--that more difficult problems should get less attention than easier problems? Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 04:27 PM | PERMALINKAre you out of your mind? You think they would apologiz? It's time for Dems like you to realize this isn't a debate, it's aboout the future of the country. Apologize for telling the truth? Never. Posted by: rpenn at February 26, 2004 04:28 PM | PERMALINKI see. Can you provide examples here? The UN push to intervene in Sudan . . . Congo . . . Rwanda . . . um, which one did we veto exactly? Well, in Rwanda, the US led the drive (despite having no troops in the mission) to withdraw the UNAMIR peacekeeping force while the genocide was going on, and was for quite some time was a leading opponent of a more robust force. As I recall, the US was similarly resistant to UN action in the Congo. Brown's vote was PRO-bilingual ed... hence my citation of it as an example of anti-hispanic bias. There is considerable legitimate debate (on both sides) on the value of bilingual ed, although groups that are anti-hispanic or more generally anti-immgirant are universally dedicated opponents. So its hard to describe a pro vote as clearly anti-hispanic, as anti-hispanic groups are almost universally opposed. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 04:42 PM | PERMALINKKokblok- All I am saying is that the sheer scale of the problem may make us shy away from acting. For example, in Kosvo, all we had to do is mount a bombing campaign and send in 4,000 troops. The Kosovars can feed themselves, they are literate, there is no health crisis, etc. There is every reason to believe that it won't cost a fortune. While we may not be able to permanently resolve the ethnic tensions, at least we will be able to restore electricity and return thigns to some sembelance of normalcy in very short order. Haiti, by contrast, is in far, far worse shape. It's the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Literacy, infant mortality, per capita GDP rates -- all of these things are appallingly low (or high, in the case of infant mortality. It's sort of like doing a favor for your neighbor. If my neighbor wants me to help move the couch from the living room into the bedroom, sure, I'll be glad to help. But if his garage collapses and he wants me to build him a whole new garage, I'll be much more reluctant. I don't think you can say that I am "unneighborly" if I don't offer to help right away. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 04:42 PM | PERMALINKFor at least the past century we have consistently acted to quash or quell popular rule in undeveloped or developing nations. Right-wing managed "democracies" and dictatorships are OK, just as long as they don't do anything vaguely socialistic, and serve US business and military "interests". I can't think of any intervention by Bush I or Clinton aimed against democracy off the top of my head, including even tacit support for anti-democratic coups like we've seen from Bush II twice, so far, in this hemisphere. I may be forgetting something. Although certainly the Cold War offers plenty of examples by leaders from both parties. Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 04:45 PM | PERMALINKYes. Both. Care to elaborate? Particularly, on the free-trade one? Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 04:47 PM | PERMALINKCmdicely- You seem like a very knowledgable person, so it is a little surprising that you don't acknowledge the character of the Chavez regime. He was indeed democratically elected (after trying to stage a military coup several years earlier, the citizens of Venezuela were stupid enough to elect him -- thik about that), but he's ruling like every other tinpot dictator. Posted by: Joe Schmoe at February 26, 2004 04:50 PM | PERMALINKcmdicely, What you said was that the US was "blocking the UN from acting" — blocking it from intervening in African genocides. Show me a case in which the US has actually blocked UN action, as Russia blocked UN action over Kosovo. And the UN's action to cut off the slaughter in Sudan was . . . what? And we shut off that action . . . how? Posted by: Michelle Dulak at February 26, 2004 04:55 PM | PERMALINKPosted by Kevin Drum: "She needs to apologize, and she needs to mean it." Posted by Old Hat: "Completely out of line. She should be reprimanded immediately and apologize for that trash talk." Posted by Eric: "Wow, that is pretty breathtaking. I think she should apologize and resign as well." Posted by Brooklyn Sword Style: "Rep. Brown did say something outrageous, and she should effing apologize RIGHT NOW. Abjectly." If a small group of slightly ethnically diverse mostly white men of immense influence and power lived a luxuriously grand life in a gilded mansion, in the damp and rat-infested basement of which they kept a large group of hideously poor mostly black people to sew gold threaded monograms into the bath towels of their masters, which they used to wipe sweat from their brows as they whipped and beat and raped their captives -- to whom they fed slop and spiders, and whose bathing consisted of piss streams from their captors -- and if somehow one of these poor souls escaped to a less harsh basement lorded by less severe masters, where she was interviewed by the press, during which she made sweeping allegations concerning her past and present keepers, including that they mistreated kittens and picked their noses.. if such a scenario existed, and if there were even the slighted doubt that some of the powerful men in question had actually mistreated kittens or picked their noses, I have a strong sense, never mind freepin' freaks, that Kevin Drum, Old Hat, Eric, and Brooklyn Sword Style would all be decrying the charges of the poor woman, insisting that she had stepped over the line, and demanding an immediate and sincere apology to one and all. Who needs to lie down for the corrupt and heartless thugs in power when bending over backward to be "fair" to them will put us just as flat on our backs. Posted by DanM: "There seems to be some weird sense among some on the left that it's ok to sneer at "white men." It's not ok. It's derogatory, bigoted and offensive." What's weird and offensive to me is demanding polite respect for the perpetrators of mass murder and immense suffering. Posted by: jayarbee at February 26, 2004 05:11 PM | PERMALINKElected officials are required to speak in PC terms or they are not. It is hypocritical to come down on one representative for and anti-black comment but give an anti-white comment a pass. If elected officials are allowed to freely exercise their right to freedom of speech, then both Lott and Brown can say what ever comes to mind. No matter how much it offends you. Politically speaking, Browns offense was much worse. This is due to
the fact that Hispanics represent a larger majority than African
Americans. In addition the Hispanic vote is open while the Democratic
Party has secured the African American vote. Joe Schmoe, Anyway, we certainly did not have to make Rwanda or the Congo a "developed" nation to prevent the slaughter of the millions that died there. In fact, there was every reason to believe that an intervention in Rwanda would have been much EASIER than one in Bosnia or Kosovo. The situation was a lot more straightforward and the "enemy" much weaker. In hindsight, Kosovo and Bosnia seem "easy", but that was not the general opinion at the time. This is not to say that I always support humanitarian intervention. Obviously each case must be weighed on the merits. But the relative poverty of the country does not seem to me to be a valid yardstick of the complexity of the task. Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 05:54 PM | PERMALINK1. This was a closed-door meeting at which, I assume, Mr. Noriega
was giving a presentation regarding State Department policies regarding
Haiti. Therefore, since we don't know what really happened in that room, it really is not for us to judge. Rep. Brown can decide on her own whether her actions warrant an apology. We are wasting too much energy on careless language, and not enough on destructive foreign policy initiatives. In other words, an apology in this case, offered or not, is none of our business. However, the policies are. David Yuguchi-- In that vein, can anyone explain to me why Brown couldn't have meant that "all Republicans" looked alike? I think this second comment is really the heart of the matter. If this is what she meant, its not only a correct statement (where are the lips of republicans?), it's kind of funny. Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 06:06 PM | PERMALINK"I can't think of any intervention by Bush I or Clinton aimed against democracy off the top of my head, including even tacit support for anti-democratic coups" Under Bush I we supported the first Haiti coup to overthrow elected Aristide and reinstate the Duvalierists. Pretty much the same people are leading the armed rebellion and supporting the coup now. We also gave Saddam helicopters and missles to quell the post-Gulf-war uprisings in Iraq, and politely stayed out of the way. Clinton was an aberration--he defied Helms and the Republicans to reinstall an elected leader in Haiti, help disband the army, and offer humanitarian aid (although he did cooperate on imposing harsh financial terms). One of many reasons why Republicans hated him so much, and hate Aristide so much. As for tacit support, during Clinton's term we continued the usual succor to right-wing rulers and insurgencies in Latin America, Southeast Asia (Suharto, for instance) and the Middle East, and probably Africa as well but I'm not as familiar with that chaotic place. Posted by: Robert E at February 26, 2004 06:19 PM | PERMALINKThis is pretty stupid on Corrine Brown's part, but I am also interested in Noriega's response. As a Mexican-American he is offended at being called a racist? I'd be offended no matter what my ethnicity. Then he says he doesn't like being branded a white man as if it were a bad thing to be. Finally, Mexican-Americans can be white people since Mexican-American is a country of origin category and white is a racial category. None of this is to belittle anything regarding Norega's response to Brown's comments, but is a comment on how people view racism in broad and inexact ways. Posted by: Poppy at February 26, 2004 06:26 PM | PERMALINKHave you all lost your minds? At worst, Brown was deeply unprofessional. I don't think that shouting and carrying on is very productive in such situations - and it certainly didn't appear to be so here. But racist? As bad as Trent Lott? Are you people insane? What did Brown do? 2. She didn't realize that Noriega was Mexican. As others have noted, Noriega's national heritage is completely irrelevant. He may not be pure Aryan but he is more than White enough to engage in the type of race based classism that is endemic to Mexico. 3. She said "You all look White to me." Okay, this is tasteless and rude but clearly was intended to suggest that Noriega's White Mexican-American-ness is not a defense against the charge that the policy is racist. In contrast, we have Trent Lott. Trent Lott repeatedly associated with openly racist organizations (CCC). Finally he waxed nostalgiac for Strom Thurmond's candidacy. Strom Thurmond was a segregationist. That was his platform. Trent Lott said that if Thurmond had been elected we "wouldn't have had all these problems." In Al's mind waxing pleasantly for Jim Crow is less offensive than calling a light skinned Mexican American "White". Fuck off, Al. Posted by: space at February 26, 2004 07:07 PM | PERMALINKJust to clarify. I'm not saying that all White Mexicans or Mexican-Americans are racist, but that Noriega's racial makeup does not insulate him in the least. Posted by: space at February 26, 2004 07:10 PM | PERMALINKSorry, but before we judge Corrine Brown, I want to hear HOW she said it. I can certainly hear a black person telling a white (hispanic) person that is fronting for racists---and was chosen because of their ethnicity---"you all look alike to me" in a way that communicates the black persons contempt for the RACISM of the hispanic person. In other words, I seriously doubt that Corrine Brown can't tell the difference between white people. "You all look alike to me" was probably her way of saying "it doesn't make any difference if you are hispanic if you are promoting a white racist agenda--and DON'T YOU DARE try and exploit the fact that you are Hispanic to justify your racist agenda." Posted by: paul lukasiak at February 26, 2004 08:00 PM | PERMALINKKevin, can we have some proof that you're a democrat? I find it incredible that you are distracted by a leaked story of
something that took place in a CLOSED DOOR MEETING, rather than the
situation that brought them all together behind those closed doors: 'It simply mystifies me how President Bush, a president who was selected by the Supreme Court under more than questionable circumstances (in my district alone 27,000 votes were thrown out), is telling another country that their elections were not fair and that they are therefore undeserving of aid or international recognition,' Brown said." I've read the story three times now, and it's clear that Corinne Brown was talking about U.S. policy - and saying to Roger Noriega that "you all look alike" was about him as the representative of the policy. You're focusing on inconsequentials, and playing right into Republicans' hands. If you really want to go off on this tangent, anybody who thinks a
black woman to be racist for borrowing a line that has a long history of
being used by whites to render invisible black people, not see them as
individuals, doesn't understand the phrase or what racism is. Her
comments were meant as irony. She hit the nail on the head, with expert
precision. Brown erred in not expecting that a Republican would leak
it to the press in an intentional misleading context of a Trent Lott
gaffe. I know that people are very confused about racism, what it is, and what it isn't. The subject usually comes up in an atmosphere of shouting, and arguments, which provoke anger, guilt and shame. People then clam up, and avoid getting it out on the table, discussed and understood. I think that's what's led to this idea that the only political correctness is not to speak any of these words or phrases ever. Now that I've run over at the mouth on this irrelevant tributary, I'm kicking myself for making Republicans happy. The U.S. involvement in overthrowing a democratically elected regime
in Haiti is what's important. It's stories like this that would help
Americans understand why most people around the world don't share our
own view of ourselves as nifty people. Hey, what happened to the fellow who said that Brown's support of bilingual education is proof of her raging anti-hispanic hatred? That guy was funny. Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 08:08 PM | PERMALINKFrankly, I was pleasantly shocked to learn an African American United States Congresswoman spoke with such “passion” for Haitians. Several decades ago the same was being said about the “Orderly Departure Cuban” population which preceded and continued through the years of the Cuban Entrants. As the primary representative of an ecumenical advocacy agency of Haitian, Cuban, and Central American asylum seekers of the early 1980’s which successfully defended this population in Federal Courts, I often had to confront the racist political differences toward each of these populations by our government. During the early 1980’s I did everything to attempt to motivate African American leadership in Florida to speak out on behalf of Haitians in South Florida and the migrant stream where they were being exploited. The African American community to some degree saw these Boat People as a threat to their own meager economic condition. I paid “top dollar” for an African American social worker and few were willing to work with our people. Granted, an apology may be in order, but the depth from which her
frustration comes is understood, shared, and appreciated. The United
States needs to stop it’s exploitation of all third world nations,
including our neighbors. Carrie-- The U.S. involvement in overthrowing a democratically elected regime in Haiti is what's important. OK, I give it up. The US actually went in and reinstalled Aristide after a coup twelve years ago; if Carrie could perhaps tell us which administration she meant to criticize, we might actually get somewhere. Posted by: Michelle Dulak at February 26, 2004 08:20 PM | PERMALINKMichelle-- ...I'm also not sure that these policies constitute "overthrowing" the government of Aristide, but they are certainly unfriendly. Posted by: kokblok at February 26, 2004 08:52 PM | PERMALINKMe thinks Ms. Brown should be required to attend some racial sensitivity training that is put on all the time by the EEOC. Down with intolerance! Also Bush's policy toward Haitian refugees is cold & cruel! Posted by: Blacklikeme at February 26, 2004 09:47 PM | PERMALINKI truly appreciate all the people defending Corrine Brown above.
However, as a resident of north Florida,and as a Democratic loyalist, I
can say without reservation that she is generally out for herself, and
often wrong. I would be more impressed with Calpundit's outrage about Rep. Brown's
comments if he had uttered a single word about the much greater horror
Noriega is orchestrating down in Haiti. There is no doubt in my mind
that this "rebellion" is an attempted coup d'etat orchestrated by the
United States. Former FRAPH leaders (many of whom are known to have been
on CIA payroll) are crossing the border of the Dominican Republic (to
which we dispatched hundreds of U.S. troops to "patrol" a few months
ago) armed to the teeth with M16s and other weapons (we sent 20,000 M16s
to the Dominican military about six months ago) while the "democratic
opposition" (which is funded by the International Republican Institute
and other sections of the National Endowment for Democracy)refuses to
negotiate in any shape or manner, much to the feigned worry of Colin
Powell. On the other hand, Noriega worked for Jesse Helms and is Mexican American like Dinesh D'Zousa is Indian. The media coverage, timing and handling of Haiti's crisis are all extremely suspicious: CIA backed insurgents, US/EU backed "civil movements"like Group of 184, headed by a reactionary American businessman with interests in Haiti. Now we'll have "Haitian Boat People" again to add to the Bush fear campaign. No, she shouldn't have said it. But the crisis in Haiti is engineered suffering for political gain -- it doesn't get more racist than that. Posted by: cs at February 27, 2004 02:13 AM | PERMALINKNote how the Dem apologists refer to her remarks as "dumb" or "stupid" -- as opposed to, say, racist. Also note how many Dem apologists say things like, "Although her frustration is understandable (her remarks were dumb)," OR "Although her remarks were dumb, her frustration is understandable." Hmmm, "that dumb old, undertandably frustrated Strom Thurmond !" Posted by: jsnead at February 27, 2004 10:15 AM | PERMALINKMy concern is that 'this need to apologize' is happening all over the
globe. Is our current administration at the root of all this
international angst? I mean, is polarization contagious? Or is there
something else going on? Maybe some unnoticed effect of Global Warming? A
variant of the chicken flu? Something sure seems to be bugging
everyone. Joe Schome You questioned my comment on U.S. business in Haiti saying there is none. Try a Goggle. I think that it was racist of Brown to throw around the term “white guys” as if it were some sort of slur. However, I can’t see how it’s the least bit racist for her to say that she can’t tell the difference between a Mexican-American and “white guys” when a cursory glance at FBI Uniform Crime Reports tells me that, apparently, law enforcement agents can’t either. That is, the FBI lumps together “Hispanics” and “Whites.” Just like Brown. Is the FBI racist? http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nmurder03.html#t206 Posted by jsnead: "Note how the Dem apologists refer to her remarks as "dumb" or "stupid" -- as opposed to, say, racist." An important distinction to make, I think, is that, apologetic or defiant, most Dems -- unlike Repubs -- do understand that racism is dumb and stupid. jsnead: "Also note how many Dem apologists say things like, "Although her frustration is understandable (her remarks were dumb)," ... Hmmm, "that dumb old, undertandably frustrated Strom Thurmond !"" Note how much more likely Repubs are to understand a racist's frustration than they are his victim's? Posted by: jayarbee at February 27, 2004 11:50 AM | PERMALINKBrown's comments were incredibly stupid. I take particular issue with posts attributed to... poster: "space" to wit, And the rant by jayarbee, slaves in the basement, et al -" most Dems understand racism is stupid..." The race based classism comment prompts more questions: for example - are light skinned blacks really, well, authentically black as they have enjoyed a prefered position within society at large and the black community in particular. (from "good hair" on to ?) I would never make such an argument, but that seems to be what "space" is implying. Further, did Noriega fly straight over from the Polanco section of Mexico City and join the Bush administration? Unlikely. Thus classism in Mexico really is completely irrelevant. [tantamount to arguing that this classism colors my experience. Hmm, perhaps "space" should argue that the classism in 16th century Mexico directly lead to my treatment today in Southern California - damn near impossible to plausibly maintain, but sounds interesting.] As to jayarbee's posts - 1). Racism is bad.
Posted by Californio: "2). The future consists more of people like me (in a racial sense) than people like Ms. Brown; 3). In light of this, I would question the wisdom of antagonizing what appears to be THE ethnic domanant force of the future." Sadly, the past (and possibly the present) consists more of people like you (discounting a racial sense) than people like Ms. Brown, who is willing to stand up to powerful forces which threaten the liberty and well being of all. As for the future, that, like the election outcome this fall, is yet to be determined. While it isn't completely clear from your post, I'm supposing that you are implying an Hispanic heritage for yourself. You may be correct that at some distant point in our nation's future Hispanics may outnumber non-Hispanics; although, I wouldn't count out Asians -- if not in this country, certainly in the world (which we may no longer be dominating). In any case, at such time as Hispanics may comprise a majority of the population, it does not inevitably follow that they will be the "dominant" ethnic force. Unless there is a dramatic upheaval of our entire system, dominance in the future will, as always, belong to those with wealth and power. As for Ms. Brown's remarks antagonizing Hispanics, apart from those comparative few who already hold views similar to yours, I see very little chance of their voting against their interests because of anything Ms. Brown said. Posted by: jayarbee at February 27, 2004 01:43 PM | PERMALINKI am also totally fucking sick of a bunch of rich and influential white men having control over the ENTIRE KNOWN UNIVERSE. so forgive her, and me, if from time to time it shows. as a demographic, privileged white men are really tedious. Posted by: kate mckinnon at February 27, 2004 02:44 PM | PERMALINKI find it really funny. Here we have a minority person making totally racist remarks that if a white person said the equivalent you would be hounding them out of office, out of a job, out of the country and you are twisting yourselves up in knots to absolve these remarks of being racist on the basis that you believe the policy of the existing government toward Haiti is racist. What the hell does that have to do with anything. What is seems you are doing is saying that the only people on Earth who can be racist are whites. No one else need apply. You further go on an ask that we identify ourselves on practically every application as to whether we are caucasian, hispanic, American Indian, Asian, etc and yet you absolve her from racism on the basis that the man is white. He has identified himself as hispanic which on your table of ethnic origins is different from white yet you say that he looks white and therefore she gets a pass on that one. Then you slam any African American who is not a slave of the democratic party as being beyond the pale, a traitor to their race. The whole bunch of you need sensitivity training immediately. Right now you are all members in good standing of the Trent Lott/Al Sharpton school of racism. Posted by: dick thompson at February 29, 2004 08:21 AM | PERMALINKI find it hard to believe anyone would defend Mrs. Browns comments.Democrats were livid about Lott's comments about Strom who was on his last days on this earth. Trying to make an old man happy in his last days (compassion for the man not his views)and Lott apoligized till he was blue in the face. It doesn't excuse the remark but it did make a moment in Stroms last days better. Sen Robert Byrd was a KKK but Democrats still elect him (50+) years in goverment and let's not forget his buddy Fritz. An apology is needed ..Let's move on. Posted by: Rock at February 29, 2004 10:57 AM | PERMALINKI'd like to hear the opinions from the regulars of this thread re: Californio's question. Kevin, very good of you to be consistent. Too bad so few liberals, er, Leftists, are. Keep up the honest criticism, you're one of the best -- but your Bush hate should prolly try to include how a Dem would likely do better... Posted by: Tom Grey at February 29, 2004 05:16 PM | PERMALINKIf we were to make it a national priority to make Haiti a significantly better place, wouldn't we have to turn it into some kind of US territory? Then we could gradually put in US laws and law enforcment. Maybe someday it would become like Puerto Rico. Are we prepared to pay the economic and political cost to do this? I am not sure if there is much we can do to truly help Haiti without a complete takeover for an extended time frame (Decades) Dear Kevin, Of course her comments were stupid and racist, and of course, she won't be called to task for them. 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