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February 25, 2004

BUSH AND THE CONSTITUTION....Interesting tidbit on ABC News tonight. In the past few years George Bush has expressed support for no fewer than five constitutional amendments:

He really seems to think the constitution is just a rough draft, doesn't he?

On the other hand, he apparently opposed ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. I guess there are a few things too trivial to justify mucking with the constitution after all.

Posted by Kevin Drum at February 25, 2004 08:00 PM | TrackBack


Comments

How does he stay the popular president, giving everything to everyone, without running a defecit?

Dear me, I do not know.

Posted by: David Yaseen at February 25, 2004 08:05 PM | PERMALINK

My brotherinlaw once said that all of GW Bush's actions can be understood when they are viewed in light of his being the spoiled son of a rich man.

Spoiled rich kids never have to pay the price for their actions. Bush just expects his time in the Whitehouse to be more of the same.

-- Austin

Posted by: Austin Mayor at February 25, 2004 08:14 PM | PERMALINK

"...the constitution is a rough draft..." What an absolute hoot. Great line depicting this Texas weasel's overall commitment to our most esteemed document.

Posted by: Daniel B at February 25, 2004 08:17 PM | PERMALINK

I'd like to see an amendment that provides that no one named Bush can ever serve as president. How does that sound?

What a freaking idiot- does he have no clue about what the constitution is? That was rhetorical by the way.

Posted by: four legs good at February 25, 2004 08:17 PM | PERMALINK

The only difference between Kerry/Edwards position(s) and Bush's position is that Bush is honest about it.

Why do Kerry and Edwards oppose gay marriage? Are THEY "bigots" for opposing gay marriage? If the courts say every state has to recognize Massachusetts' gay marriages, what would Kerry/Edwards do about it?

Posted by: Karen at February 25, 2004 08:18 PM | PERMALINK

I hope he proposes a constitutional amendment guaranteeing me my social security benefits.

signed: Robin-the-hoods

Posted by: -pea- at February 25, 2004 08:19 PM | PERMALINK

As the saying goes... this administration doesn't want to govern, they want to rule.

.. and if they don't like the rules, they'll just change them.

Posted by: Guy at February 25, 2004 08:23 PM | PERMALINK

Someone somewhere today said Democrats are always mucking with the constitution.

I would like to see a breakdown of amendments actually introduced on the floor, broke down by party affiliation, over say the last fifty years. My hunch is that it would be overwhelmingly Republican.

Seeing that Repubs, having the absolute truth, want their preferences locked into an absolute and
irrevocable form.

Posted by: bob mcmanus at February 25, 2004 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

"He really seems to think the constitution is just a rough draft"

Give me a fucking break. At least when conservatives want to change things they use the proper means. Utilizing constitutional procedures to amend the constitution respects the constitution, it doesn't demean it.
I don't think I need to cite the litany of rights found in the text of the constitution (ex. abortion, affirmative action, etc), nor the text of the constitution ignored by the courts to further liberal policies (ex. free speech succumbs to union and campaign finance reform, 2d amendment means nothing, no economic contractual rights whatsoever, despite the contract clause.

So, so long as you get your liberal justices on the SC, they can say the constitution means anything regardless of the text, but proposing an amendment is disrespecting the constitution. This is absurd. I guess I haven't learned a thing in law school. I shouldn't have wasted my time with college and left this high falutin constitutional interpretation stuff to the experts like Kevin Drum.

Posted by: Reg at February 25, 2004 08:30 PM | PERMALINK

Austin mayor I hear you got your first brew pub. How is the beer?

Posted by: chef at February 25, 2004 08:30 PM | PERMALINK

"I would like to see a breakdown of amendments actually introduced on the floor, broke down by party affiliation, over say the last fifty years. My hunch is that it would be overwhelmingly Republican."

That is a good thing. I'd rather change the constitution through the constitutional process rather than judicial usurpation.
Back in the old days, they made amendments. Otherwise, why pass an amendment to allow the income tax, prohibit alcohol, allow women to vote, abolish slavery, and so on? Just get a few justices on there who only care about the liberal policy agenda. The constitution is no barrier then.

Want a constitutional right to gay sex? Its in there! Want a constitutional right to kill your unborn child? Thats in there too!! Unsuccessful in passing your amendment allowing equal rights for women? Doesn't matter!! Its already in there!!! Who knew??

Now I would favor the ERA, prohibiting the punishment of consensual sex, regulating environmental matters, and several other amendments. Times have changed, and the federal government needs additional powers and people have other fundamental rights needing protection. Yet the SC usurps the constitutional role by deciding these matters, short circuiting the democratic process.
The one good thing about Bush's proposal, is that hopefully the amendment process will be revived and we will actually have debates over things other than supreme court decisions.


Posted by: Reg at February 25, 2004 08:36 PM | PERMALINK

Whew! Lucky thing for Bush that the balanced budget amendment never got off the ground.

I also find his stance on the abortion amendment interesting. He'd support an amendment banning abortion as long as there were exceptions for rape, incest, and when the life of the mother was in danger. Now, assuming that the only reason to ban abortion is if one believes that a fetus is a human life, does that mean that Bush supports the death penalty for rapists? Wouldn't he logically have to?

Would he also support the ability of a woman who gave birth to a child conceived during a rape to kill that child at any time after birth? If not, isn't his abortion amendment position totally incoherent? Is younger human life worth less than older human life?

Slightly OT, I know, but the rape exception always crops up in this debate. It makes sense to me, but then again, so do abortions. It seems to be totally incoherent from the pro-life side.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 08:36 PM | PERMALINK

Might I suggest a line for Senator Kerry's stump speech:

President Bush has pushed to divide and distract America through constitutional amendment efforts five times -- focusing on divisive issues such as homosexual relationships. However, two-and-a-half years after September 11th, President Bush has failed to lead any significant effort to ensure the continuity of the federal government in the event of a catastrophic terrorist attack.

Candidate Bush came to Washington promising to serve as a uniter, not a divider. However, he seeks to use Constitutional politics to divide Americans while ignoring his responsibility to ensure we will remain united following some future attack.

Posted by: Militant Moderate at February 25, 2004 08:37 PM | PERMALINK

CLARIFICATION

Before I start some kind of flame war. I don't think abortions are a good idea; I think banning them is a bad idea.

Sorry for the ineloquence.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 08:38 PM | PERMALINK

One thing these amendments have in common is that they're fundamentally unserious publicity stunts like the Mars initiative. There's little or no thought behind them nor follow-through.

All hat and no cattle. Should this be a surprise?

Posted by: bad Jim at February 25, 2004 08:42 PM | PERMALINK

Reg,

When did any court find a RIGHT to affirmative action in the Constitution? I'm in law school; can't say I've ever read that case. I think courts have said the Constitution doesn't prohibit affirmative action. That is an eminiently reasonable position, even from an originalist viewpoint like Justice Scalia's.

How would you interpret the Contracts Clause? I'm curious, since you apparently think Lochner was a good decision and that the contracts clause means no unions, no health laws, no workplace regulations. That seems like you're finding a little more in the Clause than its text will actually bear.

Do you actually think the Equal Protection Clause does not apply to women? If so, why?

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 08:43 PM | PERMALINK

C. Imerative:

Many right-to-life types do oppose abortion in the case of rape; those who would permit it are being inconsistent, perhaps, but compassionately so, taking into account the consequences to the mother.

I don't think anyone would misinterpret your comment.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 25, 2004 08:46 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry Karen, he is not honest about it. Four years ago, GWB was personally "against gay marriage" but considered it a "matter for the states". Essentially the same position expressed by the two Democratic frontrunners.

As the "urgent" situation unfolded, Bush expressed "concern", yet took no specific action. Suddenly, he is in crisis mode - ironically, after courts and state government had overturned gay marriage in New Mexico and before courts and state government have run their course in either California or Massachussets.

Why? Because the average American is still hurting from the lack of jobs, Iraq is poised to drop into civil war, the stench of indictments is getting quite close to the VP from several directions, and the President's own credibility and image has been taking a beating on everything to skipping out on military service to pre-emptive war on seemingly non-existant WMDs.

Look, I can respect sincere belief. I know several openly gay people and genuinely believe that they are as God made them. Similarly, I know a very nice lady who is extremely homophobic and terrified of gay marriage. She becomes physically ill at the very thought. Again, I don't think she chooses to be intolerant and amazingly concerned about something that, seemingly, has no direct effect on her whatsover (after all, the only change we are seriously discussing is labeling and tax returns). She is just the way God made her.

To my way of thinking it is fine if all these people act on their beliefs, provided that they constrain their actions to the rule of law. The majority gets a lot of say in this country, but folks who cannot accept the idea of basic civil liberties for everyone should move elsewhere.

My problem with the President is that his "beliefs" about Gay Marriage seem about as sincere as his "beliefs" about abortion. If he was driven by belief and conviction he would have acted sooner.

I hate to say this, but I sincerely question if the man has any real belief system at all. If he would stand up for something consistantly, I could at least respect him even when we disagree. But he seems to stand for whatever seems to best serve his personal and political purposes at the moment.

Maybe it is just the sign of times. Bob Dole would have gotten a lot more votes as Bob Dole. Instead, he morphed from State to State, apparently saying whatever his handlers told him to. On the other hand, if a Republican runs in the middle, like John McCain, or Richard Riordan, he gets devoured in the primaries. It seems that part of the party wants a characiture of a human being.

Posted by: Fitz at February 25, 2004 08:58 PM | PERMALINK

Its interesting that despite the list of amendements he has showed support for in the past, he picks gay marriage as the amendment he actually puts his weight behind in the election cycle.

Why not push an amendment banning abortion? Wouldn't that mobilize his base? Is acting against gay marrriage in San Francisco and maybe Masachusetts more important than protecting babies everywhere?

Cynical ass. All you right to lifers should be pissed as hell that he won't back your number one priority while wasting capital on gay marraige.

Posted by: dmbeaster at February 25, 2004 08:59 PM | PERMALINK

Jim,

The rape exception seems compassionate to you and me, but I just can't wrap my mind around how it's compassionate to someone who thinks abortion is murder. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. I can't think of a coherent moral theory that would come out that way. So then the question is, if when it gets down to brass tacks, some pro-lifers don't really think abortion is murder, what is their motivation? Why would Bush only support an amendment with a rape exception? Not a question to you, but any pro-lifers who are reading this. I don't mean to be snarky; I really want to know.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 09:00 PM | PERMALINK

Well put, Fitz. Principle doesn't matter to this administration, nor does truth. What matters is seizing and maintaining power for the elite at any cost, by any means. Facts can be twisted, hyped or invented wholecloth, as needed. This is the closest we have come to an imperial presidency since this nation was founded. I pray to God that their arrogance and lust for power will be their undoing, rather than the dawning of a new, darker epoch in our country's history.

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 09:09 PM | PERMALINK

Cat Imp: The rape exception seems compassionate to you and me, but I just can't wrap my mind around how it's compassionate to someone who thinks abortion is murder.

I don't think it's actually about compassion. It's about sounding less extreme than they really are. Just as they pushed for the "partial birth abortion" ban, even though DX abortions are very, very rarely performed, it's a matter of pushing a bit at a time toward the eventual goal of no abortions whatsoever.

Posted by: Jesse at February 25, 2004 09:15 PM | PERMALINK

Amazing, that ol' line about liberal judges. I've been hearing that b.s. since Earl Warren was in the Chief Justice's chair and the Birchers were calling for his impeachment. But the railing suddenly stops when conservative judges like Scalia and Rhenquist go off on a wingnut bender. Bush vs. Gore, anyone?

Give you a fucking break, Reg? Absolutely not.

Posted by: bobbyp at February 25, 2004 09:16 PM | PERMALINK

On the question of rape, I think the Doe approach is sensible. Personhood under the Constitution does not begin until birth. However, the government has a legitimate interest in preserving "potential life." Past the point of viability, the government's interest in preserving potential life is compelling, and it can act to protect the fetus against the wishes of the mother. It is a balancing between the woman's right to make decisions concerning her own body and the state's interest in protecting unborn life. Thus, the state can ban abortion in the latter stages of pregnancy, but is entitled to make exceptions for rape, incest, and other special circumstances.

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 09:17 PM | PERMALINK

The anti-abortion movement hates women. They're fetus-fetishists.

Women to them are of no importance to them save as fetus-holders. They don't care whether they live or die. Only the fetus matters.

Posted by: David Ehrenstein at February 25, 2004 09:19 PM | PERMALINK

Jesse,

Agreed entirely. I don't think pro-lifers would ever admit that in public (or at least in a debate about their position), so I'm trying to see how else it can be justified.

Bassfish,

Here is a response I was hoping for. Constitutionally, Doe might make sense, but it shouldn't make any sense to a committed pro-lifer.

Potential life...what is that exactly, and how should we draw the lines? After all, in a year or two (if not now), technology will exist such that we can clone human beings. So every time I sneeze and throw away a tissue, I'm destroying (murdering?) "potential" life. Can the state ban this? I guess my cells aren't yet 'viable' but what is the relevance of that distinction in terms of the potentiality of life? That, once a fetus reaches viability, a miscarriage is less likely? If that's the issue, suppose that I can, with virtual certainty, clone myself. Can the government then ban me from sneezing?

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 09:26 PM | PERMALINK

"rather than the dawning of a new, darker epoch in our country's history."

It does'nt look good for the future of humanity right now does it.
I did'nt know GWB has used the constitution ploy that many times.Astonishing,our free press,is'nt it.I just have to wonder how many people have this information,given that most dont get their news from the only free source.I wonder how the masses would feel about this information if it was broadcast on nightly news?

Posted by: smalfish at February 25, 2004 09:28 PM | PERMALINK

David E.--It would nice if these pro-life folks got as exciting about starving American children with no health insurance as they are about the unborn, eh? It's almost as if, for them, personhood ENDS with birth.

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 09:28 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, nothing about the abortion issue:

Kevin wrote:

He really seems to think the constitution is just a rough draft, doesn't he?

And that's exactly his experience as Texas Governor. We just voted on 22 new amendments to the Texas Constituion last year. My wife and I discussed them, and more than once asked each other "What the hell is this doing here?"

Posted by: John Lyon at February 25, 2004 09:34 PM | PERMALINK

CI--Interesting thoughts.

Roe sets up a sliding scale between the competing interests of the state vis a vis the rights of a mother to govern her own body. Viability--defined in Roe as the third trimester--is the point at which the state can force the woman to carry her baby to term.

You're correct, every cell in your body is potential life, and according to Roe the state would have some level of interest in protecting it. If a cloned embryo is implanted, it would be governed by the Roe paradigm (state can ban abortion of viable fetus).

However, if grown to maturity outside the womb of the mother, the state would exercise greater powers to protect the unborn life without impinging on the mother's right to govern her own body (since her body would not be involved).

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 09:39 PM | PERMALINK

In Ireland, there was some concern that a pregnant victim of rape might commit suicide, and in support of her life, allowed her to go to England for an abortion.

Posted by: noclasswarrior at February 25, 2004 09:46 PM | PERMALINK

You know, it would be a really wicked move to combine all that into one big amendment.

Posted by: grytpype at February 25, 2004 09:48 PM | PERMALINK

He really seems to think the constitution is just a rough draft, doesn't he?

A bit smug, aren't we? As though Bush is the only one to ever propose Constitutional amendments. As though proposing such amendments is somehow evil, or a crime. This reference shows a few of the amendments that have been proposed in Congress back to about 1990:

"108th Congress (2003-2004)

- To guarantee the right to use the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and the national motto
- To restrict marriage in all states to be between a man and a woman
-To remove any protection any court may find for child pornography
- To allow Congress to pass laws for emergency replenishment of its membership should more than a quarter of either house be killed
- To place Presidential nominees immediately into position, providing the Senate with 120 days to reject the nominee before the appointment is automatically permanent

107th Congress (2001-2002)

- Calling for the repeal of the 8th Amendment and its replacement with wording prohibiting incarceration for minor traffic offenses
- To specify that progressive income taxes must be used
-To specify a right to "equal high quality" health care
- To limit pardons granted between October 1 and January 21 of any presidential election year
- To require a balanced budget without use of Social Security Trust Fund monies
- To allow for any person who has been a citizen of the United States for twenty years or more to be eligible for the Presidency
- To force the members of Congress and the President to forfeit their salary, on a per diem basis, for every day past the end of the fiscal year that a budget for that year remains unpassed

106th Congress (1999-2000)

- To provide a new method for proposing amendments to the Constitution, where two-thirds of all state legislatures could start the process
- To allow Congress to enact campaign spending limits on federal elections
- To allow Congress to enact campaign spending limits on state elections
- To declare that life begins at conception and that the 5th and 14th amendments apply to unborn children
- To prohibit courts from instructing any state or lower government to levy or raise taxes

105th Congress (1997-1998)

- To force a national referendum for any deficit spending
- To provide for the reconfirmation of federal judges every 12 years
- To prohibit the early release of convicted criminals
- To establish the right to a home
- To define the legal effect of international treaties
- To clarify that the Constitution neither prohibits nor requires school prayer
- To establish judicial terms of office

104th Congress (1995-1996)

- To clarify the meaning of the 2nd Amendment
- To provide for the reconfirmation of federal judges every 6 years
- To force a two-thirds vote for any bill that raises taxes
- To repeal the 16th Amendment and specifically prohibit an income tax
- To provide for removal of any officer of the U.S. convicted of a felony
- To permit the States to set term limits for their Representatives and Senators

103rd Congress (1993-1994)

- To allow a Presidential pardon of an individual only after said individual has been tried and convicted of a crime
- To allow Congress to pass legislation to allow the Supreme Court to remove federal judges from office
- To provide for the reconfirmation of federal judges every 10 years
- To provide for the recall of Representatives and Senators
- To remove automatic citizenship of children born in the U.S. to non-resident parents
- To enable or repeal laws by popular vote
- To define a process to allow amendments to the Constitution be proposed by a popular ("grass-roots") effort
- To force a three-fifths vote for any bill that raises taxes
- To prohibit retroactive taxation
- To provide for run-off Presidential elections if no one candidate receives more than 50% of the vote
- To prohibit abortion
- To bar imposition on the States of unfunded federal mandates

102nd Congress (1991-1992)

- To disallow the desecration of the U.S. Flag
- To allow a line-item veto in appropriations bills
- To expand the term of Representatives to four years
- To provide for direct election of the President and Vice-President (eliminating the Electoral College) [too bad for Gore this didn't pass]
- To force a balanced budget
- To prohibit involuntary bussing of students
- To make English the official language of the United States
- To set term limits on Representatives and Senators
- To repeal the 22nd Amendment (removing Presidential term limits)
- To guarantee a right to employment opportunity for all citizens
- To grant protections to unborn children
- To provide for "moments of silence" in public schools
- To allow Congress to regulate expenditures for and contributions to political campaigns
- To provide for the rights of crime victims
- To provide for access to medical care for all citizens
-To repeal the 2nd Amendment (right to bear arms)
- To prohibit the death penalty
- To protect the environment
- To repeal the 26th Amendment (granting the vote to 18-year olds) and granting the right to vote to 16-year olds
- To provide equal rights to men and women"


None of these got anywhere, none of these seem necessary, many are downright asinine, a couple are frightening, and liberal and conservative brain farts are both well-represented.

Now settle down a little bit. Some perspective wouldn't hurt.

Posted by: tbrosz at February 25, 2004 09:59 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Calpundit: After reading your item on the number of times President Bush has wanted to amend the constitution, I'm compelled to air an amendment notion of my own that's been turning in my mind ever since the time our current president "won" office by a vote of 5 to 4.

It would go something like this: No person who has served in elected office for the State of Texas shall have the right to run for the office of the President of the United States of America.

It sounds about as fair as the one currently being touted by our president.

Moreover, it could be tacked on to the Immigrants for President Amendment to be brought forth soon by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Vivaldi

Posted by: Vivaldi at February 25, 2004 10:00 PM | PERMALINK

The anti-abortion movement hates women. They're fetus-fetishists.
Women to them are of no importance to them save as fetus-holders. They don't care whether they live or die. Only the fetus matters.

I like this.

If you reflect on it from a sociobioligical perspective it makes heaps of good sense:

All the male animal cares about is extending his DNA line into the future.

A woman is nothing but a means to that end. Therefore, she should be forced to carry and bear his progeny regardless of any health risks. Her life is secondary to the extension of his DNA.

Thanks David Ehrenstein. Funny I never realized this blatantly obvious fact before.

Posted by: -pea- at February 25, 2004 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

Hm...minor quibbles. True, Roe drew the line at the third trimester. Now, though, the trimester system is no more according to the Supreme Court. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, they moved the viability line back (I think they said 28 weeks) and scrapped the trimester framework entirely. So, an implanted cloned embryo wouldn't be governed by Roe, but by Casey. And frankly, that opinion is so poorly written that it's hard to tell what the deal would be, and the state would end up with a heck of a lot of leeway (their standard is something like "no undue burden," which a moment's thought will reveal is totally question-begging: how much of a burden is "due" is entirely dependent on one's position on abortion).

But, time to stop playing the Socrates game and just put my cards on the table fwiw. I think the concept of "potential life" is incoherent (I guess "potential HUMAN life" would be more accurate; certainly a fetus is "life"--it has functioning cells, etc.). The fact that it's difficult or unpalatable to draw a line doesn't mean that one cannot rationally be drawn. Viability is a type of line, but if that's where it's drawn, it should be because a viable fetus is a human life, not a potential human life. Something that is not a human life cannot be murdered. One cannot kill 'potential.' And if someone wants the line at viability, he/she should be able to come up with reasons why viability is relevant in determining when life begins. As for me, I side with Peter Singer.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 10:31 PM | PERMALINK

In line with all this:
http://ww.salon.com/news/wire/2004/02/25/house_fetus/index.html

Posted by: me at February 25, 2004 10:31 PM | PERMALINK

I'd heard about that bill....and dammit, a friend of mine worked on Melissa Hart's campaign four years ago. The anti-abortion agenda is, of course, obvious, but after reading it, the law seems pretty tame. It would take a real wingnut judge to think that it is granting any kind of personhood to a fetus. I mean, we have cruelty to animals laws, right? The real question is, what's the penalty? If a fetus "dies" too, is it a double murder? That would be a problem.

In any case, I hope the Senate bottles it up like last time.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 10:41 PM | PERMALINK

I thought that the constitution already states this,not in the bill of rights but in the constitution under elections.I've always wondered about the wording.I like the Idea of voting for each seperatly,It would make for more balanced politics(I think).

Posted by: smalfish at February 25, 2004 10:45 PM | PERMALINK

I think we're all being way too optimistic about the effect the GM amendment is going to have on the election.

I mean that in our echo chamber, Bush is clearly wrong, and it's a damned disgrace. But he might get more popular support than we think possible.

Posted by: grytpype at February 25, 2004 10:45 PM | PERMALINK

CI: Thought experiment: At what point should the government be entitled to strap a woman onto a gurney and force her to carry a fetus to term? From conception? Does a woman's uterus become the property of the state the instant the egg is fertilized? I think the answer has to be no.

I'm not a fan of abortion, I just think the woman has a fundamental right to determine what happens to her body. To interfere with this right, the government should have reasons that are so compelling they justify infringing on a fundamental constitional right.

I don't have a problem with attaching criminal liability to abortions of post-viable fetuses. It's not necessary to recognize a fetus as a "person" under the Constitution to punish killing of post-viable fetuses, if a state wishes to do so.

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 10:54 PM | PERMALINK

Grytpype: The amendment has zero chance of success. It will be a failure. It will marginalize the right fringe that wants to codify their intolerant views as federal law. I think this will be seen for what it is--a political red herring designed to divide the country and whip up fervor on the right at the expense of support in the middle. People are not so afraid of gays anymore. Bush's strategy might have worked ten years ago, but not now. Americans love freedom and tolerance too much to buy into this ridiculous effort to demonize a minority for political gain. (I hope.)

Posted by: Bassfish at February 25, 2004 11:04 PM | PERMALINK

Reg, what cracker-jack box did youget your law degree from. Try sitting down and reading the opinions instead of getting your consitutional interpretation from Rush Limbaugh. The beauty of the document is that it is subject to interpretation, and flexible enough to allow for the ever blurring line between compelling government interests and individual liberty.

Posted by: Mark Adams at February 25, 2004 11:12 PM | PERMALINK

Personally, I think it's just another photo-op, a craven attempt to keep Drum and everyone else from beating on the AWOL issue, the jobs issue, the deficit, Iraq, (two from column A and one from column B). Only time will tell if it worked better than the Mars initiative.

With any luck it will bite him harder in the butt than the flight suit strut.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 25, 2004 11:18 PM | PERMALINK

Bassfish,

To fully answer your thought experiment, I'd need more space than others would appreciate me taking up here, but I'll do what I can. The first bit of this assumes the Constitution isn't coming into play. The second part addresses the Constitution

No, the gov't cannot strap a woman to a gurney from the moment of conception. I think that's true because I don't think a fertilized egg is human life, so the government has no say whatsoever. I don't think a fetus at any stage of development is a human life, so I don't think the government ever gets to interfere. It's between a woman, her family and friends (if she wants to ask them), and her doctor. Period.

I don't understand what the government's interest in "potential life" is, nor do I understand what "potential life" is, at least as a morally coherent concept.

Now, supposing "the government" disagrees with me, could they strap the pregnant woman to a gurney then? I'd still say no. Assuming that the issue is murder, then the government, if it thinks the fetus was murdered, should prosecute her (and the doctor) for murder. I mean, in no other area does the government get to forcibly restrain people AHEAD OF TIME to protect the government's "interest in life." This isn't Minority Report; crimes happen, THEN people get prosecuted and punished (if convicted). The only way abortion is any different is if the government has some heightened interest in actively ensuring the birth of more children, separate from a generalized interest in life. To me, that seems absurd.

Ah, the Constitution. I don't think the Due Process Clause can be reasonably read to require a right to abortions. It's about PROCESS. "Substantive due process" is like "red banana tastiness"; it's nonsensical and totally made up. The Due Process Clause has its roots in the Magna Carta, and is about fair procedures in terms of enacting, enforcing, and adjuding laws and lawsuits.

That said, the Privileges and Immunities Clause, which the Supreme Court incorrectly gutted right after the 14th Amendment was ratified, probably does grant a right of privacy. In fact, substantive due process analysis is, I think, pretty much just privileges and immunities analysis the Court was later forced to call something different because it didn't want to overrule old precedent. In the end, they've got it right.

So, since pregnant women have a constitutional right of privacy and since, in my view the fetus is NOT a human life, the government can't do a thing. And, as described above, even if the fetus IS a human life, that shouldn't mean that the government can force a woman to carry it to term.

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 11:21 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and as to the fetus being a constitutional person--true enough, it doesn't have to be one for the gov't to punish harming post-viable fetuses. The state can and does have cruelty to animals laws, and they're not constitutional people, either.

But if the government punishes harm to fetuses as MURDER, then it's pretty clear the gov't thinks the fetus is a person, constitutional or not. And that seed, planted in a criminal law, would be seized upon by the next lawyer who gins up a test case to overturn Roe. So, depending on how harshly the new bill punishes 'killing' a fetus, it could become pernicious down the line (if you think having Roe/Casey on the books is a good thing, which I do).

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 25, 2004 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

I was going to copy the entire press briefing from the White House page today because it was such a riot from beginning to end, but it was way too long. I love how McClellan was repeatedly asked why Bush thought in 2000 it was an issue best left to the states, and now it's a federal one. He could only say variations of "sacred institution," "enduring," "man and a woman," "careful consideration," etc. The man is a tool.

Posted by: peejay at February 25, 2004 11:33 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz: Unless I'm misreading that page, those are the amendments that were proposed in the Congress, rather than by the President. Do you happen to know how many Amendments over the past 20 years, say, were publicly supported by the sitting President -- or even a serious Presidential candidate?

[The only one I can think of offhand is Bush's support of the anti-flag-burning amendment, but I'm sure there are others.]

My suspicion, btw, is that Kevin's underlying point is correct insofar as Presidents don't usually endorse Amendments -- Senators and, more pointedly, Representatives not having to appeal to as wide an audience -- although I'd have to take more time to carefully formulate that into a legitimate thesis.

Posted by: Anarch at February 25, 2004 11:51 PM | PERMALINK

grytpype: I wouldn't worry. "Culture war" didn't work too well for Dubya's dad in 1992, did it? And if anything the jobs situation is worse now than it was then - and we're mired in a war besides.

Posted by: Firebug at February 25, 2004 11:56 PM | PERMALINK

Categorically Imperative, the rape exception works like this. Have you ever read Judith Jarvis Thompson's essay about the violinist? If not, basically she's arguing that even if the fetus is considered a person, the mother should still be free to have an abortion. She likens pregnancy to a case in which you are kidnapped by the Society of Classical Music Lovers (or some such) and a famous violinist whose kidneys are failing is plugged into your body somehow. The violinist needs to use your body for nine months or he will die. She argues that while a good Samaritan might allow the violinist to use his/her kidneys, nobody is obligated to.

This analogy works as far as it goes. I (and many pro-lifers) would agree with her that the kidnap victim is not obligated to let the violinist use his/her kidneys. The situation she describes is very much analogous to pregnancy resulting from sexual assault. Thompson tries to claim, however, that her example applies to all pregnancies, but she's missing a key difference. For the violinist scenario to be truly analogous to the case of pregnancy resulting from consensual intercourse, you would have to have taken some action that caused the violinist to a) need life support and b) become attached to you. What's more, you would have taken that action knowing that said violinist-dependency might result. In that case, I would argue that you did have an obligation to help keep him alive if possible. You incurred that obligation by having put him in the position of needing your support.

Thank you for asking politely about a position you did not understand, rather than just making shit up about other people's motivations.

Posted by: obeah at February 26, 2004 12:29 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin, Kevin. You still don't get it, do you? The Bush administration thinks EVERYTHING is a rough draft. It's all power. Nothing else.

Posted by: englishprofessor at February 26, 2004 01:10 AM | PERMALINK

A recently leaked Rovian PowerPoint presentation has a 10 point plan for reducing excess rights.

The Bill of Restrictions

Posted by: mark at February 26, 2004 01:17 AM | PERMALINK

Obeah,

Thanks for your post. I am familiar with JJT's argument and was hoping someone would bring it up. I agree that it doesn't sensibly apply to all pregnancies and that, if anything, it applies to rape. But I'm not totally convinced that it even applies to rape.

Philosophically, I think the whole question turns on whether one believes in any kind of active/passive distinction. I feel like at least part of the work being done in JJT's argument in terms of capturing the intuition that it's OK to walk away from the violinist is that you wouldn't be murdering him. Sure, in the hypothetical, he's guaranteed to die, but psychologically, we'd be inclined to rationalize--we're not doing anything, just walking away. And so on.

Anyway, you obviously feel differently...I'd be interested in your thoughts on the active/passive distinction in the violinist's case and how it might not totally overlap with abortion in the case of rape?

Posted by: Categorically Imperative at February 26, 2004 02:51 AM | PERMALINK

Bush has punk kid coloration and isn't fit for constitutional melodrama. He's Andy Hardy with a mean streak who extols amendments with all the eloquence and persuasion that he would a pizza order.

If only for the sentimental grandeur of it all, the country needs another FDR, a good old-fashioned, big-hearted dictator who could preside with the words, "This is a Democracy, and I'm running it."

As expressed in the 1937 Hart-Kaufman Broadway satire "I'd Rather be Right," he didn't mess around with consitutional amendments (wishes for the Supreme Court notwithstanding) but got things done more directly by calling in his secretary and declaring, "Grace, take a law."

Posted by: Harry Lime at February 26, 2004 05:24 AM | PERMALINK

i've always understood that the constitution doesn't list every right possessed by the individual in our free society. in some cases it makes explicit those things that the state cannot do to infringe upon the individual. amendments typically are passed to further clarify rights not already explicit. i have a right to live as a free man and i'm guaranteed equal protection under the law. for the "liberal activist judges" to decide that some form of discrimination or other is not permitted under the constitution does not mean that they've found some previously unseen right for me to do something. it is a recognition the the state has no compelling interest to justify its continuing to deny me equal protection under the law. they are limiting government. that's something any conservative should be happy about.

Posted by: tim at February 26, 2004 05:38 AM | PERMALINK

You people going on about "Liberal Judges" and "judicial activism" are outright crazy.

Judges rule on cases that are brought before them by PEOPLE who feel they have been harmed.

Judges do not simply wake up one morning and decide "today I'm going to rule that gay marriage is OK."

In Mass, they were ASKED by the Legislature, to rule on whether a law banning gay marriage would be constitutional under the state constitution. The State Supreme Court (a panel of judges appointed mostly by Republican governors, mind you) ruled that No, banning gays from marrying would in fact violate the State's guarantee of equal protection under the law.

That is hardly "judicial activism." In fact, the phrase is entirely meaningless. Judges INTERPRET law, that's what they are SUPPOSED to do in our system of government.

You want a different system? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Posted by: Monkey at February 26, 2004 06:10 AM | PERMALINK

Judges do not simply wake up one morning and decide "today I'm going to rule that gay marriage is OK."

Give it up, Monkey, you're talking to a cult.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan at February 26, 2004 06:35 AM | PERMALINK

bobbyp:

Yea, and they were ranting about Earl Waren, that pinko, leftie soft-on-crime Republican district attorney from California.

Posted by: dmbeaster at February 26, 2004 06:35 AM | PERMALINK

Give it up, Monkey, you're talking to a cult.

True. But the Monkey is Tenacious.

Posted by: Monkey at February 26, 2004 06:46 AM | PERMALINK

"no economic contractual rights whatsoever, despite the contract clause. . . . I guess I haven't learned a thing in law school."

I guess you haven't. Funny, I seem to have spent a surprising proportion of the last 25 years litigating contract cases without noticing that contract rigthst have become unenforceable.

The courts enforce rights not found in the constitution? OLet me give you a clue as to how our constitution works, Reg. It doesn't conform to the totalitarian "everything not explicitly permitted is prohibted" model--just the opposite. Read the 9th Amendment--there are lots of rights that are no less real for not being explicitly "granted" in the contstitution.

I know you are a law student, and after reading your comments on various sites for a while now, I can only conclude that you have yet to take your constitutional law courses.

Posted by: rea at February 26, 2004 07:16 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe this is just a calculated distraction, but dang! It is getting where the distractions (How about Greenspan's announcement that SS benefits will be cut?) are getting worse than what they distract from.

Posted by: Tripp at February 26, 2004 07:20 AM | PERMALINK

One of the more interesting bits about the GOP stance on abortion is this: for a variety of reasons, some financial, some related to health concerns for the potential mother, and all creating a complex circumstance, fertility enhancements for an infertile couple regularly produce multiple pregnancies (when they are successful at all). My wife's best friend was one of the women to which this happened, and she was very open about the matter. Now, she (and most women like her) can't try to bear large numbers of children at one time without putting them all at risk, so she and her husband aborted one of the fetuses (at a clinic in Philly that specializes in this treatment) and she basically stayed in bed for the last three months of her pregnancy. It was a hard decision, the abortion, but they have two healthy kids to show for it now, whereas the odds were very good she would have spontatneously aborted all three fetuses.

Why is this not a GOP and anti-abortion issue? This kind of clear, premeditated aborting of a "child"? Because it's not politically expedient and it will show a certain number of their supporters to be zealots. (I've referred this story to some of anti-abortion types and the response has been, "Better the three fetuses die than these two live by means of an abortion." Yeah. There's a "compassionate conservative" winner.) Likewise, the couples who can afford this procedure aren't exactly broke. They're usually white, too.

Posted by: Brian C.B. at February 26, 2004 07:29 AM | PERMALINK

i've always understood that the constitution doesn't list every right possessed by the individual in our free society.

A very Hamiltonian view, and one I subscribe to. FWIW, I wrote about this very idea a few days ago in the context of the anti-gay amendment (blogwhore).

Posted by: NTodd at February 26, 2004 07:55 AM | PERMALINK

As though Bush is the only one to ever propose Constitutional amendments.

Well, there's a vast difference between wackos in Congress proposing amendments that most citizens never hear about and have zero chance of passing, and the President using the bully pulpit to push for passage. No member of Congress gets as much exposure as Bush does, so when he weighed in on this issue, he immediately elevated its level of importance on the national stage.

Posted by: NTodd at February 26, 2004 08:05 AM | PERMALINK

The rape exception seems compassionate to you and me, but I just can't wrap my mind around how it's compassionate to someone who thinks abortion is murder.

There are a range of anti-abortion believers with different views. Quite a lot of people who think abortion is morally wrong aren't entirely unmoved by arguments about choice, but are convinced by arguments that, outside of rape, the point of choice is when you choose to have sex. So that's
where it comes from on the "moderate" anti-abortion side.

Also, I suspect that there is some eugenic rather
than compassionate reason that the extremists sometimes are happy with exceptions that include rape and, particularly, incest.

Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 09:04 AM | PERMALINK

But if the government punishes harm to fetuses as MURDER, then it's pretty clear the gov't thinks the fetus is a person, constitutional or not. And that seed, planted in a criminal law, would be seized upon by the next lawyer who gins up a test case to overturn Roe. So, depending on how harshly the new bill punishes 'killing' a fetus, it could become pernicious down the line (if you think having Roe/Casey on the books is a good thing, which I do).

Many states, including California which is among the most pro-choice in the union, already have fetal murder laws.

Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 09:06 AM | PERMALINK

". . . since, in my view the fetus is NOT a human life, the government can't do a thing."

In my view, the fetus may be a human life, but the government doesn't have to do a thing about it. That is because I don't think "protecting life" is the number one role of government. I think the number one role of government is protecting the peace, and if allowing abortions to happen without governmental interference is necessary or appropriate for protecting the peace, then so be it. There may be a separate question as to whether abortion is a sin or immoral, but I don't think it is government's job to enforce morality or punish sins.

Posted by: shirley at February 26, 2004 09:13 AM | PERMALINK

I teach U.S. History, and when I get to the Bill of Rights, I give my students an assignment: come up with an amendment *not* in the Bill of Rights that you think should have been.

My favorite of all time:

"No person from Texas shall ever be elected to any political office anywhere." The student proceeded to offer a whole process by which a qualified person unfortunate enough to be from that state could get around the proscription.

It certainly would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? No Dubya, no Bill Owens here in Colorado... Sounds like the Age of Aquarius, doesn't it?

Posted by: Laura at February 26, 2004 09:35 AM | PERMALINK

Isn't Dubya actually from CT?

Posted by: Mo at February 26, 2004 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

Bush is supporting a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, and not pushing an amendment against abortion, because he's never actually _paid_ for a gay marriage.

Posted by: Chris Leithiser at February 26, 2004 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

To allow Congress to pass laws for emergency replenishment of its membership should more than a quarter of either house be killed

That's actually a reasonable thing to have an amendment about. Should some large quantity of the house be obliterated - a not absolutely impossible event - the current mechanism for replacing the congresspeople is massively time consuming (many states require special elections rather than allowing the governor to appoint someone, as in the Senate), and in the meantime the executive will be running the show with no legislative control. If you believe the legislature should be the locus of power in the governmental system, that's a troubling scenario.

Posted by: aphrael at February 26, 2004 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

The courts enforce rights not found in the constitution? OLet me give you a clue as to how our constitution works, Reg. It doesn't conform to the totalitarian "everything not explicitly permitted is prohibted" model--just the opposite. Read the 9th Amendment--there are lots of rights that are no less real for not being explicitly "granted" in the contstitution.

This is true, but I think it slightly misses the point, in part because Reg muddled his important process argument with some (apparently) weak examples.

As you and others point out the Constitution is the Big Picture. It can't and shouldn't list every rule. Instead we write laws for that. The issue at hand is what laws can you write and which legislative body can write them.

Some folks want to be able to write laws that prohibit gay marriage. It seems likely that the Supreme Court will eventually thwart their efforts. I don't know whether the decision will be based on the 9th amendment, the 14th, or something else.

So opponents of gay marriage have two choices. They can amend the Constitution explicitly. Or they can stack the Supreme Court with Justices that will write opinions that justify making gays less equal than everybody else. In the amendment process, the decision is made explicitly by the entire country. In the second "process", the presidential election becomes a proxy for the decision, and the judicial hearings become ideological battlegrounds. For important battles, it's good to use the amendment process.

There are interesting parallels between gay marriage and abortion. FWIW, I happen to support both. But it's a Constitutional scandal that abortion rights rest on a "penumbra". And it's comical that liberals are so upset with conservative efforts to find 5 conservative guys who will make up some new bullshit to overturn the old bullshit created by 5 liberal guys. If the Constitution is just a "text" to be interpreted, then both sides can play that game.

Issues as divisive as abortion, gay marriage, etc should be resolved in one of two ways:
1) Punt, and let each state do what it wants.
2) Constitutional Amendment.

Bush's *policy* of opposing gay marriage is wrong. But it's *good* that he is trying to use the amendment process, and it's borderline *absurd* for Kevin to mock him for it.

Posted by: James at February 26, 2004 11:25 AM | PERMALINK

Just wondering: anybody know what Wesley Clark's stand on gay marriage/the Hate Amendment was (or is?)

Posted by: Chris Leithiser at February 26, 2004 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

If Bush really respected the process he would let this whole thing work its way up to the SC before jumping through the flaming hoops. But he is a weak desperate man in search of more ammunition for his little pea shooter. Clearly the wingnuts are aware that time and history are not on their side, and they don't trust a Supreme Court with a majority of Republican appointees to make the "right" call.

Posted by: Cheap Suit at February 26, 2004 12:48 PM | PERMALINK
[...]and in the meantime the executive will be running the show with no legislative control.

I'd say: In the meantime, the executive will be running the show with no one to pass stupid new laws like USA PATRIOT without reading them.

Really, the only "control" over the executive lost will be the ability to call oversight hearings and the impeachment power, which -- unless the President is the proximate cause of the emergency -- isn't likely to be used right away in such a case anyway. The judiciary will still (presumably) be around, and that's what puts the real limit on executive power within the existing framework of law created by the Congress.

The *least* important power in such a crisis is probably the legislative, and frankly its the kind of thing that is so outside of normal experience that whatever rules are written to cover the circumstance are likely to be unusable if it actually happens anyway.

Posted by: cmdicely at February 26, 2004 01:50 PM | PERMALINK

"Issues as divisive as abortion, gay marriage, etc should be resolved in one of two ways:
1) Punt, and let each state do what it wants.
2) Constitutional Amendment."

James, the drafters of the 14th Amendment wouldn't have used phrases like "due process of law" and "equal protection of laws" if they didn't expect the courts to figure out, on a case-by-case basis, what practical meaning thsoe phrases should be given.

And, although I'm sure you are advancing this argument in good faith, you should be aware that it has particularly disreputable antecedents. Your argument is the same one that was made against Brown v Bd of Ed and every civil rights case that followed, for example.

Posted by: rea at February 26, 2004 03:46 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Kerry's position is really no different then Bushs' position.

Kerry says the States should decide...so if all States decide TO OPPOSE GAY MARRIAGE THAT'S FINE WITH JOHN KERRY.

Only Ralph Nader supports a gays right to choose marriage.

VOTE Ralphy boy!

Posted by: KEISER at February 26, 2004 04:03 PM | PERMALINK

"Give me a fucking break. At least when conservatives want to change things they use the proper means. Utilizing constitutional procedures to amend the constitution respects the constitution, it doesn't demean it.
I don't think I need to cite the litany of rights found in the text of the constitution (ex. abortion, affirmative action, etc), nor the text of the constitution ignored by the courts to further liberal policies (ex. free speech succumbs to union and campaign finance reform, 2d amendment means nothing, no economic contractual rights whatsoever, despite the contract clause.

So, so long as you get your liberal justices on the SC, they can say the constitution means anything regardless of the text, but proposing an amendment is disrespecting the constitution. This is absurd. I guess I haven't learned a thing in law school. I shouldn't have wasted my time with college and left this high falutin constitutional interpretation stuff to the experts like Kevin Drum."

Hmmm...proper ways conservatives change things...like stopping the Florida re-count? I don't give a shit what was said or not said in Bush v. Gore; to simply stop the re-count instead of agreeing upon a state-wide standard for the re-count and going ahead with it told me all I needed to know about George W. Bush and how he would govern, besides being a complete travesty of the Constitution. He always has been and always will be a bitchy little brat who will play hardball to get his way for his big corporate sponsors (Florida recount, tax cuts, drug reform) and who will piss and moan at the drop of a dime when he doesn't (energy bill) .

All this "liberal activist" crap is just that...crap. There are just as many "conservative activist" judges around as well. It all ends up being on which side of the coin your beliefs fall...and I'll never side with the group who wants to amend the Constitution based on their intolerant, bigoted, narrow, and subjective reading of the Bible that embraces catastrophe and writes out compassion.

As a follow up to the Kerry is no different on gay marriage that George W. Bush. What planet are you people on? It doesn't seem to be Earth. Not condoning gay marriage yet opposing a constitutional amendment is the same as not condoning gay marriage and advocating a constitutional amendment? I don't see the logic in that argument.

Saying John Kerry and John Edwards are no different than George W. Bush because they do not PERSONALLY believe in gay marriage is just as intolerant and ignorant as those people who say we have to protect the mythical sanctity of marriage and the mythical sacred foundation of the family by intitutionalizing discrimination.

It's enough for me that JK and JE oppose re-writing the Constitution to take rights away from American citizens. I don't expect them to believe exactly as I do on an individual level and I think anyone who does needs their ego checked at the door.

Posted by: Patrick at February 26, 2004 05:03 PM | PERMALINK

"""It's enough for me that JK and JE oppose re-writing the Constitution to take rights away from American citizens."""

Yeah, because somehow gay marriage was written into the Constitution 200 years ago and we JUST MISSED IT!

Just like abortion...it was right their in the emanations of the penumbras.

Let's see, Bush says he supports an amendment that says a marriage is between a man and a women, and the definition of marriage is 'the legal union of a man and a women' NOW THAT'S RADICAL MAN.

How about YOU wanting to take the right of the people away to decide what marraige is?? You are removing my right to elect representatives
to decide these issues in a democratic manner. Its called taxation without representation..look it up.


Posted by: keiser at February 26, 2004 05:14 PM | PERMALINK

I don't recall this much fuss about his other Let's-screw-around-with-the-Constitution brainstorms. Come to think on it, why is the reaction to this particular amendment gone on for more than a single news cycle, unlike the others?

Posted by: Molly, NYC at February 26, 2004 05:40 PM | PERMALINK

"In sum, the FMA is not a response to any problem we currently have. The solemn task of amending the nation's fundamental law should be reserved for actual problems. Never before in the history of the country have we amended the Constitution in response to a threatened (or actual) state court decision. Never before have we adopted a constitutional amendment to limit the states' ability to control their own family law. Never before have we dictated to states what their own state laws and state constitutions mean. Never before have we amended the Constitution to restrict the ability of the democratic process to expand individual rights. This is no time to start."
-Dale Carpenter, a conservative University of Minnesota professor of law.

read the whole thing here:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10017

Posted by: tim at February 26, 2004 06:24 PM | PERMALINK

Um. Balanced budget?


The White House has said Bush supports a balanced budget amendment but that it should include exceptions for war, national emergency and economic recession. Istook's amendment has an exception for declared war or national emergency but not for recessions.

And, as we all know, W is the War President.

Posted by: xfrosch at February 26, 2004 09:32 PM | PERMALINK

Molly, NYC:

". . . Come to think on it, why is the reaction to this particular amendment gone on for more than a single news cycle, unlike the others?"

A very vocal and adament homosexual lobby with nothing else productive to do in this society?

tim:

". . . the FMA is not a response to any problem we currently have."

Obviously, we disagree.

". . . This is no time to start."

Unfortunately, if we wait for the smoking gun, it will be too late ; )

P.S. - you guys wanted proof of how gay marriage would impact heterosexual marriage - here's one more: the Social Security Administration has told its offices nationwide not to accept marriage certificates from San Francisco as proof of identification for newlyweds looking to make name changes on Social Security cards ; )

Posted by: Charlie at February 27, 2004 04:44 PM | PERMALINK

P.S. - you guys wanted proof of how gay marriage would impact heterosexual marriage - here's one more: the Social Security Administration has told its offices nationwide not to accept marriage certificates from San Francisco as proof of identification for newlyweds looking to make name changes on Social Security cards ; )

I rather think that this has less to do with the existence of gay marriage qua gay marriage than with the fact that those licenses could be revoked at any minute.

Posted by: Anarch at February 27, 2004 06:11 PM | PERMALINK

Anarch:

Look, you guys just asked for the "harm" to other marriages - small or large - I'm just complying with your request (maybe there were not very many heterosexuals married recently in SFO or they probably don't mind the inconvenience : )

Posted by: Charlie at February 27, 2004 06:16 PM | PERMALINK

Hail Hail Tbrosz,

A bit smug, aren't we? As though Bush is the only one to ever propose Constitutional amendments. As though proposing such amendments is somehow evil, or a crime. This reference shows a few of the amendments that have been proposed in Congress back to about 1990:

Personally I'm not fond of knee-jerk amendment proposals, but a number of those passed in the last 20-30 years have been good and to the benefit of liberal causes.

There's certainly nothing morally wrong with it. It's the proper way to go about pursuing change, if that's your goal.

I don't recall other presidents getting behind the more recently proposed amendments, but again I don't see anything wrong with Bush expressing his support. A recent article in the Atlantic made a fairly good argument that the Constitution hasn't been amended enough. I didn't agree, but it was a good argument.

Posted by: Chris K at February 27, 2004 06:51 PM | PERMALINK

Our resident bigot, Charlie, wrote: "Look, you guys just asked for the "harm" to other marriages - small or large - I'm just complying with your request"

Sad, then, that you still cannot find any harm from allowing gay marriages. Even for you, Charlie, this was pathetic.

Posted by: PaulB at February 27, 2004 09:59 PM | PERMALINK

Actually Bush wants 7 amendments !

[From CNN crossfire 27 feb]
------------------------------------

BEGALA: Because -- and let me give you a few other examples. Our president, our president, he clearly loves our country. I disagree with him politically. But there's no doubt this man loves our country deeply.

There's equally no doubt this a man who hates our Constitution. He wants seven, seven, new amendments to Mr. Madison's masterpiece, seven, one on gay marriage, one on school prayer, one on flag burning, one on abortion, one on a line-item veto, one on crime victims bill of rights. And just to show us he has a sense of humor, he wants a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Now, either he hates the Constitution or he's a posturing politician, isn't he? Come on, seven.
----------------------------------
Full transcript: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/27/cf.00.html

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