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February 20, 2004 BOUNDERS AND CADS....I've just started reading Conrad Black's biography of FDR — a book so thick and heavy that it's literally a pain to read — and in an aside early on about Stanford White, the celebrated turn-of-the-century architect, he says:
A bounder and a cad! And Black was careful to say that he was both a bounder and a cad, which got me wondering what the difference was. So I Googled it:
Now, there's no question that Stanford White was not the kind of man you'd want hanging around your daughter, and his bounderosity and cadishness eventually led him to a bad end indeed. But I'm still left mystified: why did Conrad Black insist on calling him both a bounder and a cad? What's the difference? And why use a word that even Rudyard Kipling would have used only in jest? Posted by Kevin Drum at February 20, 2004 12:49 PM | TrackBackComments
Perhaps such needless repetition on Black's part helps explain why his book is overly long? Posted by: Jim E. at February 20, 2004 12:53 PM | PERMALINKSpeaking as a Brit, if one were to use either of those words these days, it would have to be both together, used slightly ironically with an archly raised eyebrow: "You sir, are a bounder and a cad, and you most certainly can not take my mother for a spin in your MG." Posted by: Alex at February 20, 2004 12:56 PM | PERMALINKI've seen the phrase "a cad and a bounder" before -- it seems to be a British idiom, a way of emphasizing the subject's caddishness by repetition. I doubt anyone uses it seriously these days, though. Posted by: Shem at February 20, 2004 12:58 PM | PERMALINKBecause Conrad Black is a pompous asshole. Google his name on the Canadian google and see how many times the word "pompous" appears in the links it provides. Posted by: Michele at February 20, 2004 12:58 PM | PERMALINKPerhaps there is a shade of difference between the terms, a meaning we haven't been able to find (bounders insult women, cads only cheat them, maybe), and he wanted to make sure that the reader knew that his subject violated the norms for both possible meanings. Or maybe it was repetition, or reiteration, for the sake of emphasis and stress. Possibly could maybe be, eh?
I don't know if I've ever had less of an understanding of any blog, anywhere, than I have of this one. I feel confused. Good work! Posted by: Balta at February 20, 2004 01:01 PM | PERMALINKYeah it's mostly for emphasis but I understand a bounder to be someone who acts evilly through their dumbness or ignorance, whereas a cad knows what they are doing is evil but does it anyway. Posted by: Danack at February 20, 2004 01:02 PM | PERMALINKMy British friends fall in with Alex's report: they use the two together, in an ironic way. Posted by: rd at February 20, 2004 01:02 PM | PERMALINKIn Black's case, of course, the proper terminology is " a thief and a bully". http://tinyurl.com/2zy25 Posted by: Hermit at February 20, 2004 01:05 PM | PERMALINKAtta boy, Kevin. Go ahead -- pick a nit or two. Of course, your criticisms of Black can't have anything to do with your political stripes -- nor your frustrations at not being able to make a living as a writer. Typical radical-left bullshit. You can't refute or rebut anyone's arguments -- so you quip large about a word or two. Posted by: Norman Rogers at February 20, 2004 01:05 PM | PERMALINKYeah, looks like a literary idiom: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22a+bounder+and+a+cad%22 Posted by: Tom Hoffman at February 20, 2004 01:07 PM | PERMALINKOh come on, it's fun to use old-fashioned phrases like that. I've seen the word "bounder" by itself and always took it to mean rogue, knave, rapscallian, scoundrel, scalliwag, etc. Which leads me to wonder - what is the modern day equivalent word for shiftless, no-good, take-advantage-of-young-women kind of guy? Jerk is too broad. Posted by: Librul at February 20, 2004 01:09 PM | PERMALINKMethinks Norman Rogers has an inferiority complex. It's okay, Norman. I'm sure your mother, at least, likes you. Posted by: John Y. at February 20, 2004 01:09 PM | PERMALINKNorman Rogers: Bwhahahahh...hahahaha...hahaha..oh. Ho. (wipes away tear) Hahahaaa... Wow. That was funny. Posted by: st at February 20, 2004 01:10 PM | PERMALINKNorman Rogers, you are a mean-spirited little guttersnipe, aren't you? Unless, somehow you thought you were being funny. In that case, you're just humorless. Posted by: chris at February 20, 2004 01:11 PM | PERMALINKNorman! I told you you are not to use the computer unsupervised. Now get offline and do your homework young man! And furthermore, I will not tolerate your foul mouth. You apologize to these nice people here! Posted by: Norman's Mom at February 20, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINKI vaguely think that "bounder" is a broader term than "cad," which to me implies specifically someone who behaves dishonorably in relationships with women. A swindler would be a bounder, though not necessarily a cad, whereas "cads" is a subset of "bounders." I state this on absolutely no authority whatsoever. Posted by: Bernard Yomtov at February 20, 2004 01:13 PM | PERMALINKYou, sir, have encountered a hackneyed term, or perhaps a cliche (hackneyed cliche?), and an antiquated one at that, forsooth! The hackneyed term, together with the weight of the book, suggests a stubborn author or inadequate copy-editing. Posted by: PaxR55 at February 20, 2004 01:14 PM | PERMALINKOED on 'cad': OED on 'bounder': 2. A person of objectionable manners or anti-social behaviour; a cad. Also in milder use as a term of playful abuse. (Occas. applied to a woman.) colloq. [1889-] e.g. 1889 Barrère & Leland Dict. Slang, Bounder (university), a student whose manners are despised by the soi-disant élite, or who is beyond the boundary of good fellowship...(society), a swell, a stylish fellow, but of a very vulgar type. 1917 J. ADAMS Student's Guide 27 A prig is one who has too much self-respect, a bounder one who has too little. Conclusion: fairly synonymous, both with a tinge of class-disdain
(and for 'cad' that seems to be the origin; not so, apparently, with
'bounder'?), 'bounder' coming into use later, such that the idea that it would have been obsolete for Kipling seems wrong... ...oh, and that a woman can be a 'bounder'! Not to suggest that the OED is the be-all and end-all... Posted by: Mischa at February 20, 2004 01:17 PM | PERMALINKI can only say that I have seen/heard the words used independently (though mostly cad, as as stand alone) and that a friend had to vouch for his best man being neither (which he says was a bald-faced lie) before said best man could be admitted to his club. The most humorous (though non-supported) definition of , "bounder," I've ever heard had to do with the introduction of gutta-percha golf balls (which bounced) in the days of wooden balls. Such balls were prohibited on many courses (IIRC St. Andrews, for one) annd one who used them could be denounced, as a bounder, to the membership committee, for sanction. TK Posted by: Terry Karney at February 20, 2004 01:22 PM | PERMALINKKevin, don't you think Conrad Black has enough problems without you busting his chops (er, make the "both busting his chops and giving him a hard time") in this manner? Posted by: Al at February 20, 2004 01:22 PM | PERMALINKI like "bounderosity," myself. I'm going to use that at the earliest opportunity. Posted by: Lex at February 20, 2004 01:23 PM | PERMALINKPeople, I am sure that if you e-mailed Norman Rogers at normanrogers@hotmail.com you would find that he merely posted that poorly reasoned message to demonstrate the posting of one who is both a bounder and a cad. Austin Posted by: Austin Mayor at February 20, 2004 01:25 PM | PERMALINKWow. Al and Norman have managed to take an honest question about language and turn it into a personal attack on Kevin. That is a new low, folks. Congratulations. Since Black makes a point of distinguishing the words -- "both a bounder and a cad" -- which are in fact synonyms, the reason for his usage is presumably the same as the reason Dr. Johnson gave the woman who asked why his Dictionary defined "pastern" as "the knee of a horse": "Ignorance, madam, pure ignorance". Posted by: bob at February 20, 2004 01:29 PM | PERMALINKAustin: perhaps he was instead trying to present the image of a churl and a boor? Posted by: Curtiss Leung at February 20, 2004 01:30 PM | PERMALINKI think Bernard Yomtov has it right: a bounder is someone of broadly disreputable ethics, whereas "cad" is more specifically the Hugh Grant-type character who specializes in mistreating women in relationships. Posted by: Bill Camarda at February 20, 2004 01:32 PM | PERMALINKFor a great review of Black's FDR biography, check out the Observer. It calls it a "tumescent 1,280-page doorstop-worthy biography". Librul, Uh-oh, I smell another tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory! Ahhhh! Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 20, 2004 01:36 PM | PERMALINKThat is a new low they're just demonstrating that neither of them are worth listening to, no matter what they're talking about. Posted by: cleek at February 20, 2004 01:36 PM | PERMALINKSorry, link here: http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=8307 Posted by: gunther at February 20, 2004 01:37 PM | PERMALINKPoor Norman Rogers. Guy takes a few days off from the Freeper boards and when he gets back and follows a couple stale links, it turns out he missed out on all the juicy National Guard threads. Hang in there, Norm. There'll be more. In the meantime, don't you have some kind of "God Hates Fags" rally to attend or something? Posted by: Laertes at February 20, 2004 01:41 PM | PERMALINKThe OED makes it obvious: A cad is a short golf assistant, whereas a bounder takes too many mulligans. Why didn't EL Doctorow have this in his novel? Posted by: bob mcmanus at February 20, 2004 01:42 PM | PERMALINKOED's latest quoted usage: Bounder - 1930 W. S. Maugham Cakes & Ale xvii. 195 Women...adore a bounder. Cad - 1868 Lessons Mid. Age 142 You cannot make a vulgar offensive cad conduct himself as a gentleman. Ah someone has posted the OED results. The distinction is between "objectionable manners" (bounder) and "vulgar manners" (cad). So possibly a cad is always a bounder but a bounder need not be a cad. White presumably revelled in his bounderishness but hid his caddishness from public view. Posted by: Ravi at February 20, 2004 01:43 PM | PERMALINKi'm english, and alex is right. it's sort of being done ironically (but sort of not.)
"A swindler would be a bounder, though not necessarily a cad, whereas "cads" is a subset of "bounders." I state this on absolutely no authority whatsoever." I agree. I have always thought of cads in a sexual context. A man who would "take advantage of a woman", I think they call them athletes now. A bounder is someone who would not be welcome in your club and has a history of unacceptable behavior, not necessarily involving women. The Black biography is quite entertaining and I am up to about 1919, before the polio. Roosevelt deserves a big, doorstopper biography or two with a modern, more dispassionate eye.I read the hagiographies of Schlessinger and others years ago. They were political biographies while this is more in the line of McCullough's Truman. Posted by: Mike K at February 20, 2004 01:53 PM | PERMALINKI've seen the phrase "a cad and a bounder" before -- it seems to be a British idiom, a way of emphasizing the subject's caddishness by repetition. I doubt anyone uses it seriously these days, though. Yeah, my dad uses "a bounder and a cad" together all the time, it's just a catchphrase of sorts. Posted by: billy at February 20, 2004 01:58 PM | PERMALINKI mean to say, my dad uses them ironically, of course. Posted by: billy at February 20, 2004 01:58 PM | PERMALINKI found Al and Norman's comments to be rather bounderesque. Or would that be bounderous? Posted by: MikeR at February 20, 2004 02:00 PM | PERMALINKComputer Assisted Design - you cad !!
as , "he was a bounder and a cad, than sixes and sevens , neither here nor there, cats and dogs,...on and on. Posted by: Max Macks at February 20, 2004 02:01 PM | PERMALINKCertainly the terms have been used separately, as in: "Hello, I'm Bounder of Adventure!" In an older style of writing it's common and ordinary :-) to use a "redundant" pair of synonyms for emphasis. Consider the phrase the strait and narrow, which implies a difficult path or moral course. Strait means narrow or tight, as in straitjacket. Today, of course, many who use the phrase write "the STRAIGHT and narrow" without thinking about what it means. (Or, worse, they assert it's correct that way. Is a straight path fraught with difficulty by virtue of its straightness? NO!) Then, there are the people who innocently write stuff like "for all intensive purposes," "at his beckon call," "free reign," "to the manor born," "I would of called you," and "If you think X, you've got another thinG coming." Arrggh. Best not to get me started. I see this sort of stuff in "top-tier" newspapers, for Pete's sake. -Mr. Smoke-too-much, blowing off some steam. Posted by: turbonium at February 20, 2004 02:01 PM | PERMALINKBounder and cad go together, as anyone who grew up on Bugs Bunny
knows. In fact, I would bet that most people (males, anyway) my age (40)
knew that bounder and cad went together before they knew what either
word meant, other than they were bad things embodied by Elmer Fudd in
randy mode, uttered as they usually were by Bugs Bunny in drag. The Oxford English Dictionary defines cad as:
Defines Bounder as: 2. A person of objectionable manners or anti-social behaviour; a cad.
Also in milder use as a term of playful abuse. (Occas. applied to a
woman.) colloq. Just like to point out too that English has many antiquated phrases consisting of two redundant words connected by 'and' such as 'hem and haw', 'kith and kin', 'zig and zag'. Is hemming different from hawing, are kith different from kin (actuallky, what are kith?)? We seem to use it for emphasis. I think that bounder and cad are much the same and Black uses both just to be even more emphatic. My $0.02 Posted by: MSR at February 20, 2004 02:08 PM | PERMALINKI think too be called both a bounder and a cad in the same breath you have to have a waxed moustache to twirl, as I believe Sanford did. Posted by: eikaizoku at February 20, 2004 02:16 PM | PERMALINKNorman,come back,we were only kidding.Honest... Posted by: nick danger at February 20, 2004 02:18 PM | PERMALINKThe Black biography is quite entertaining and I am up to about 1919, before the polio. Roosevelt deserves a big, doorstopper biography or two with a modern, more dispassionate eye.I read the hagiographies of Schlessinger and others years ago. They were political biographies while this is more in the line of McCullough's Truman. Shorter Mike K: I wish someone would write a big book that bashes FDR while maintaining a veneer of academic respectability. Posted by: Silence Dogood at February 20, 2004 02:18 PM | PERMALINKcad = ungentlemanly with regard to relationships with women (vulgar). bounder = ungentlemnaly with regard to members of your Club. They can be separate or overlapping. You can be a cad for leading a woman on. You can be a bounder for borrowing money for your wedding from your best man and never paying it back. You are both if you borrow money from your best man to marry his sister and then skip town leaving her at the altar and the debt unpaid. Posted by: elliottg at February 20, 2004 02:20 PM | PERMALINKJames Joyce, in "Ulysses", describing Blazes Boylan (Molly Blooms' boyfriend): Hmm. At Cambridge, 1980-1990, cad could be heard, not bounder, and we
didn't use both. This may fit Mischa's point. I knew some cads, I never
knew a bounder, except maybe in Beano. Another recent, and ironic, pop-culture manifestation of "bounder" (sans "cad") is the "Seinfeld" episode where Elaine suffers through a visit by a raffish, but boorish and penniless, British boyfriend: Elaine and Jerry in the coffeeshop: Elaine: So, Simon is definitely going back now. He's meeting me here to return my keys. Jerry: Boy, he's a real bounder, isn't he? Elaine: Yes! He's one of those bounders. Slightly OT: It warms my heart to see a correct use of the word "literally." Re: bounder and cad: obviously a function of the Department of Redundancy Department. Posted by: nano at February 20, 2004 02:47 PM | PERMALINKMy take: Bounder: One who "bounds" over the rules and morals to which the rest of society cleaves. Cad: A man who shamelessly engages in Computer Aided Design. Posted by: Occam's Cuisinart at February 20, 2004 02:48 PM | PERMALINKI was under the impression that "cad" specifically referred to those who acted reprehensibly in affairs of the heart, while "bounder" was just sort of a generally untrustworthy person.... Posted by: Ben Cochran at February 20, 2004 02:50 PM | PERMALINKThank you, john mattson. I wondered where I had heard that phrase before.
This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put, sir! Posted by: Canuckistanian at February 20, 2004 03:00 PM | PERMALINKWell, I'm not sure if this helps; but in a British book -- I don't know if it was a P.G. Wodehouse or not -- I remember reading this line: "At school a 'bounder' was a chap who wore the wrong sort of collar. . . " I've also read "looks a bit of a bounder," but never "looks a bit of a cad." So "bounder" seems to have had a sort of association with really bad *taste,* whereas I've never heard "cad" used to express anything but *moral* disapprobation. Of course, the connection between bad taste and bad morals used to be more widely recognized. . .
Wow. Al and Norman have managed to take an honest question about language and turn it into a personal attack on Kevin. Wow. You've managed to turn a little snarky comment into a "personal attack". Impressive! I see my stalker will help you out, though. Posted by: Al at February 20, 2004 03:15 PM | PERMALINKer, yes, it's a JOKE, folks. Bit of humour, you know, from the department of redundancy department. Posted by: cereal at February 20, 2004 03:25 PM | PERMALINK'You, sir, are a bounder and a cad' is just a kind of idiomatic parody of early-20th c. British English. Think Terry-Thomas, Peter Bowles or David Niven. (The moustache is sort of compulsory.) Note also that the BBC's review of 'The Bounder' (starring Peter Bowles) begins with 'Howard Booth is a Raffles-like cultured cad'... Posted by: blah at February 20, 2004 03:26 PM | PERMALINKDid you see the review of Lord Black's FDR biography in The Walrus Magazine (billed as the new Canadian Harpers)? Apparently the language only gets more neo-Edwardian — including these gems: "nerosity," rodomontade," "cumbrous" ... And "sodomizing" in this sentence: "The Republican Platform committee produced a document that virtually accused the Roosevelt administration of sodomizing the Constitution, as well as the ethics, character, and liberties of the American people." Almost makes you me want to read it. Almost. Posted by: samiam at February 20, 2004 03:30 PM | PERMALINKIs this like vim and vigour? or for americans vigor? Is vim ever used without vigour? Posted by: cynical joe at February 20, 2004 03:30 PM | PERMALINKLibrul wrote: Which leads me to wonder - what is the modern day equivalent word for shiftless, no-good, take-advantage-of-young-women kind of guy? Jerk is too broad. A check of my Keble Bollege Oxford dictionary indicates that current usage favors gropinator (from Altdeutsch Gropenführer). His female counterpart, the gropinatrix, is more rarely observed. I wouldn't normally be leaping to Al's defense, but I didn't put his comment in the same category as Norman's. Al didn't seem to be attacking Kevin to me. As for Norman, his contribution was self-parody at its very finest. Posted by: Donald Johnson at February 20, 2004 03:42 PM | PERMALINK>'You, sir, are a bounder and a cad' is just a kind of idiomatic parody of early-20th c. British English That is my vague impression too...it's a tongue-in-cheek way to accost a friend who's just swiped some of your french (that's Freedom for you, Norman) fries complete with the requisite slapping of the face with an imaginary white glove and a duel challenge. You know how us software nerds always go around spouting off bits of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"??? I bet it came from something like that but a lot less successful, so everybody forgot that it actually had an origin. But the originator quite intended an over-the-top parody, therefore the redundancy.
'Vim' makes me think of *nix text editor vim, a.k.a. 'vi Improved' (hence the 'm' of vim, because geeks are dorks and Unix geeks are the dorkiest of ur-dorks, getting their rocks off corny acronyms and recursive acronyms and scurrilous pronouncment of acronyms and acronyming of acronyms...) er, I digress. Posted by: daniel-mark at February 20, 2004 03:47 PM | PERMALINKOh, didn't see Turbonium and John Mattson's posts. They seem to have it nailed. Posted by: doesn't matter at February 20, 2004 03:48 PM | PERMALINKI sense the absence of P.G. Wodehouse from some people's bookshelves? Alex got it right, back at the top: "you, sir, are a bounder and a cad!". And a rotten egg to boot, I'll wager. A bounder is a gentleman of poor moral character. A cad is a common ruffian, and as such can have no moral character whatever. It's a good book. One book can't adequately represent all of the opinions and perspectives on FDR and Eleanor, and this one is more disrespectful of Eleanor than most, but this is the best single volume biography. On most topics that are controversial, Black quotes multiple memoirs and diverse primary sources. It's on my reread list. You will need your dictionary close by. Posted by: MatthewRMarler at February 20, 2004 04:17 PM | PERMALINK"Shorter Mike K: I wish someone would write a big book that bashes FDR while maintaining a veneer of academic respectability." I don't think it bashes him at all. It is very extensively footnoted and, while I haven't checked the footnotes, it looks quite respectable from an academic standpoint. Of course, if you don't like his politics or his newspapers it's de riguer to smack him around as uneducated. I have read most of the usual works on FDR and cannot recall anyhting that goes into his relationship with TR or his Hudson Valley upbringing. You should be willing to admit that Schlessinger's books were uncritical. Posted by: Mike K at February 20, 2004 04:40 PM | PERMALINKor his Hudson Valley upbringing hey, whatcoo got against a Hudson Valley upbrining?? Posted by: cleek at February 20, 2004 04:47 PM | PERMALINKIt's mere style, and it sounds better than the 'or' variation. Like others have said, the use of the two synonyms reinforces the idea, like 'You sir are a charlatan and a fraud' If he said "bounder or a cad" that would sound as a lesson on the word 'bounder' or as if 'bounder' and 'cad' really weren't synonyms. Posted by: Shawn at February 20, 2004 05:32 PM | PERMALINKMay I put in a good word for Stanford White? Yes, he had a younger (and very beautiful) mistress, but his contribution to the American city scape, as well as to his many friends, was great. It may be hard to understand from our perspective but even after the murder his children and grandchildren and (I believe -- can't find the relevent book right now) his wife remained devoted to his memory. Harry Thaw was a destructive spoiled wealthy cokehead who never did a decent thing in his life, and was pure poison for Evelyn Nesbitt. Posted by: Gene O'Grady at February 20, 2004 05:39 PM | PERMALINKThe Americanized version of "a bounder and a cad" would be, I think, "a shit and a moral crud". Posted by: Bruce A. at February 20, 2004 05:47 PM | PERMALINKBounder, cad, who gives a rat's ass? Black's a con-man and a thief and has no moral authority to speak about anyone else. I can't wait for his ass to be tossed off the Chicago Sun-Times he ruined. Posted by: Steve Cohen at February 20, 2004 05:49 PM | PERMALINKI just finished the Power Broker. I am glad that I lift weights. I can not recommend a better book to read if you are interested in politics. FDR and Robert Moses were enemies and FDR, after he was elected President, decided it was time to pay Moses back for past misdeeds. Ickles was ordered by FDR to quit paying inovices for construction of the Triborough Bridge in NYC until Robert Moses was fired or resigned. Ickles told La Guardia that stack of invoices on his desk would be paid when Robert Moses' resignation was laying next to them. FDR eventually had to back down and the Triborough was completed. FDR was invited to the opening ceremonies but would not go and speak if he was going to be introduced by Moses because Moses would denigrate and embarrass him. FDR did go and Moses introduced him. The Power Broker is an incredible story of hard ball politics. Conservative or liberal bias? - the story was so compelling I didn't look for any biases. I will put the FDR book on my list. It will be an interesting read after the Power Broker. I am reading Bernard Goldberg's Arrogance now. Thanks, Kevin, for connecting several stories I had forgotten were connected, if I ever knew. I knew about the architectural firm McKim, Mead and White from a college course in turn-of-the-century American art. Now I know Stanford White was that White. And I knew about Evelyn Nesbit as the courtesan character in E. L. Doctorow's Ragtime. Now it's all tied together. The story is nicely summarized in http://www.perfessorbill.com/nostalgia/nstlgia0.html. And yes, Nesbit was cheated out of her promised $1,000,000.00. Posted by: Joel Rubinsteinn at February 20, 2004 06:00 PM | PERMALINKI had always understood "bounder" as encompassing a class-based (as well as an ethics-based) sneer; someone like Lord Lucan, for example, would have been called a cad but not a bounder (being an aristocrat). "Bounder" is a word that upperclass people use about people whose class status they find dubious, whereas "cad" applies to cads irrespective of class. Or I could be full of shit on this, not being British. More likely Black is just being typically pompous and histrionic. Is he a bounder, or just a cad, do you think? Posted by: Nancy Irving at February 20, 2004 06:00 PM | PERMALINKMr. Drum has shown again that he's expert at choosing topics and laying out a few sentences to get the conversations going. The chickadee alarms of his dissenters only embellish the point. Black says on page 274 that FDR held 998 press conferenves---which can be broken down as 337 in his first term; 374 in his second; 279, his third; and eight in his fourth, which lasted only little more than a month. Compare that to Bush---and his 7? 8? But he's superior to Roosevelt in malaprops, 437 to none; he also does better in exaggerated boasting and instructing his press office to use briefings as occasions for public relations. Imagine Stephen Early, after the 1942 Doolittle Toyko raid, saying of Roosevelt, as McClellan says of Bush almost every day, "This is a president not afraid to make decisions." The reporters would have laughed him out of the room; who knows completely why that pusillanimous group now there doesn't roar, too, considering all the other claims that McClellan feels compelled to make---"This is a war president," "This is a president willing to act," "This is a president who's committed to homeland security." All this will punctuate history's verdict that Bush, who also has read only three books in three years, just might be the very worst president the country's ever had. Yet, in a land where yahoos flourish and are unashamed to make it known, he has his apologists, as did Pierce, as did Fillmore, Buchanan, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, even Nixon. What a list. And just about all Republican. Posted by: Harry Lime at February 20, 2004 06:16 PM | PERMALINKUgh. Conrad Black. The most pompous ass we Canadians have produced in a long time, and he's had plenty of competition. Posted by: Stephane at February 20, 2004 06:20 PM | PERMALINKI've always considered a "bounder" to be a man (not a woman) who does not honor his debts. A man who runs out on his debts and responsibilities. Posted by: bipod at February 20, 2004 06:49 PM | PERMALINKOh yeah! and a "cad" is a man who "dishonors" women. Stanford may well have been a cad. Did he pay his bills? Was he a bounder too? Posted by: bipod at February 20, 2004 06:53 PM | PERMALINKI also think that the less said about Conrad Black the publisher, the better, but as a big FDR fan, I am enjoying the book so far (I'm in the second half of 1941 right now). I really don't think it's a rip job at all. A few of his biases come through with regard to references to later history, but I've got no real gripe with the book as a whole. I did, however, debate the morality of giving the man money to read his book. Posted by: hueyplong at February 20, 2004 07:10 PM | PERMALINKSo, would a rotter be more of a bounder than a cad? Posted by: David Zimmerman at February 20, 2004 07:17 PM | PERMALINK
You are a: You're a bit or a rake, aren't you? Posted by: agave at February 20, 2004 07:39 PM | PERMALINKI suspect but have not yet been able to confirm that "you cad you bounder" etc. was borrowed by Bugs Bunny from Groucho Marx, as was the more obvious "of course you realize this means war," and of course the carrot as cigar. I'm sure someone with a better memory than mine will dig up the movie (or radio show) that Bugs was referencing, groucho or otherwise. (but I have a vivid, hopefully real, memory of Groucho saying it in a woman's voice as if to himself...) Posted by: john mattson at February 20, 2004 07:41 PM | PERMALINKHoly fucking crap, check this out! [link]http://billmon.org/archives/001082.html[/link] Posted by: Bounder at February 20, 2004 07:45 PM | PERMALINKI always heard the set expression the other way around, as "a cad and a bounder." Posted by: rachelrachel at February 20, 2004 08:58 PM | PERMALINKTo test my hypothesis, I did a google search: "a cad and a bounder" about 284 "a bounder and a cad" about 134 Posted by: rachelrachel at February 20, 2004 09:17 PM | PERMALINKI'm not sure, but I think perhaps bounder has it's source in Dickens' Mr. Bounderby from Hard Times: "A big, loud man, with a stare, and a metallic laugh. A man made out of a coarse material, which seemed to have been stretched to make so much of him. A man with a great puffed head and forehead, swelled veins in his temples, and such a strained skin to his face that it seemed to hold his eyes open, and lift his eyebrows up. A man with a pervading appearance on him of being inflated like a balloon, and ready to start. A man who could never sufficiently vaunt himself a self-made man. A man who was always proclaiming, through that brassy speaking-trumpet of a voice of his, his old ignorance and his old poverty. A man who was the Bully of humility." And also of his considerably younger wife. Though if the OED doesn't cite it, maybe this is a red herring. Posted by: J Hart at February 20, 2004 09:18 PM | PERMALINKFrom a phrase search on Amazon.com: A book entitled A Bounder and a Cad by George Ashley. and Excerpt from page 380 "... to be) a rather distressing figure. He was clearly a bounder and a cad. He seemed to think because he was the possessor of ..." Posted by: Mike at February 20, 2004 09:22 PM | PERMALINKIt's amusing to see the lefties grumbling about reading a book by someone whose politics they disagree with. I thoroughly enjoyed Edmund Morris' books on TR and only regret that he passed up an opportunity to do a good bio on Reagan. They obviously despised each other on sight. Too bad. If I refused to read books by authors whose politics I disdained, I wouldn't get much reading done. Seems to go with the profession, like acting. Probably related to narcissism but if they can write, who cares. Posted by: Mike K at February 20, 2004 09:26 PM | PERMALINKYou aren't seriously blaming Stanford White for the fact that Harry Thaw murdered him - a premeditated, planned murder, I might add. I mean, yeah, White had an affair with Nesbitt. But jeez, that's no reason to kill a man! Posted by: DavidNYC at February 20, 2004 09:47 PM | PERMALINKWhen will Drum realize that Inkblot is a bounder and a cat? "Kith and kin" is not redundant, according to the Concise Oxford it means "acquaintance and kinsfolk" (kith Posted by: Menshevik at February 21, 2004 12:47 AM | PERMALINKSorry "kith" is derived from OE "cythth", meaning "knowledge" and "known country" Posted by: Menshevik at February 21, 2004 12:49 AM | PERMALINKBTW "of that ilk" is properly used of some very specific Scottish titles: Lord Mackay of that ilk, or whatever. Since we're on this. Posted by: John Isbell at February 21, 2004 03:19 AM | PERMALINKLord Mackay, now there's a name. Lord Mackay of Clashfern was the last Conservative Lord Chancellor and was, from what I remember, an entirely decent sort of chap who seemed to deal with the various challenges of life in that government with some style and humility. However, he was kicked out of the Free Church Of Scotland (defining characteristic: not being free) for attending his best friend's funeral. The issue was that the aforementioned friend was a Catholic, and I remember the Church's line at the time being that Mackay was kicked out for "consorting with Satan". Fantastic stuff. Anyway, for what it's worth, as a Brit I very, very occasionally would use the expression "you, sir, are a bounder and a cad" - typically if one of the lads has spent the night with a lady and given out the wrong phone number in order to make good his escape. On the basis of no academic knowledge of the subject, if I was asked to guess I'd say that a cad is more conscious of his actions and that they almost inevitably involve some form of sexual misconduct - cf James Hewitt / Princess Diana. Somewhere in there is also the possibility of the accused taking pride in his actions over a brandy in male company at a later date. A bounder is more someone who offends common sensibilities by being unaware of the alternatives. Hmmm. Clinton: cad Does that work? My personal favourites for resurrection are gadzooks! and zounds! Shakespearian contractions of God's Hooks (ie the nails on the cross) and God's Wounds (the spear wound thingy). Anyone want to trade? Looking for good but redundant American words - suggestions welcome. Posted by: Al at February 21, 2004 03:41 AM | PERMALINKtranslation language translation website localization services technical translation To say that Stanford White was a "...bounder and a cad" is to be not only inexact but to suggest that White's offense was no worse than arching his eyebrow and pinching the ass of an edwardian maid. What Black meant to convey instead was that White was licentious and therefore entitled to a stronger definition, maybe "rake." I'd like to say a word, too, about the book's back cover consanguinity between Black and three of his adoring erstwhile board members---Kissinger, Buckley and Will. They were all paid at one time or another upwards of $25,000 to be Black's unpublicized corporate sycophants, and here they repay the favor. Kissinger, the intercontinental pirate, says "...no biography of Roosevelt is more thoughtful..." William F. Buckley, yesterday's protector of Joe McCarthy, calls the book "...a learned volume...by a vital critical mind." And George Will, the twirp philosopher, concludes that "...Black assembles powerful arguments to support strong and sometimes surprising judgements." As William Kristol showed with his secret $100,000 from Enron for making statements of propaganda while pretending it was critical analysis in the public interest, smiling Republican verdicts come freely when they're bought. Posted by: Harry Lime at February 21, 2004 05:15 AM | PERMALINKLinguistically, I'm less interested in the bounder-cad question than
in the fact that, in the year 2004, Kevin is still using the phrase
"turn-of-the-century" to mean "circa 1900." I think he got the phrase from Roy Orbison. Seriously. He said of the fictional father of the Traveling Wilburys, "Some said
daddy was a cad and a bounder but I remember him as a Baptist
minister." (I stumbled across this completely by accident on a Wilburys
website, Wilburys.info. Lots of redundant phrases in legalese: null and void; cease and desist; declare and affirm; and (my favorite) goods, merchandise, and wares. Posted by: rachelrachel at February 21, 2004 09:47 AM | PERMALINKAl - "Looking for good but redundant American words - suggestions welcome." Cowboy - current usage evokes images of John Wayne, Tom Mix, et al Original use in America referred to Tory irregulars in lower New York state who burned and ransacked the homes of Revolutionary war soldiers and sympathizers. Perhaps it has an even older meaning to 18th century Brits??? Posted by: james at February 21, 2004 09:48 AM | PERMALINKHollinger, Inc. board member Raymond Seitz had a two word analogy about Conrad Black in court on Thursday, but the two words weren’t “bounder” and “cad”. http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1077232211203 Feb. 20, 2004. 07:25 AM RICK WESTHEAD Wilmington, Del.—A Hollinger International Inc. official investigating Conrad Black's alleged self-dealing yesterday turned the tables on the history and military buff, using a startling World War II analogy to describe him. In the second day of a trial to determine the publishing company's future, Raymond Seitz, a member of a special internal committee investigating Black's management of the Chicago-based concern, described Black's reneging on a Nov. 15 agreement to resign and return allegedly unauthorized payments he'd received. "It was a bit like the invasion of Czechoslovakia and I was in the unhappy role of Neville Chamberlain," Seitz told a packed courtroom. "We had a perfectly good-faith agreement in November, but in the course of December and January, it became clear in my view that Mr. Black was considering reneging." A letter Black sent in January said he had been tricked into resigning and would not honour the Nov. 15 pact. "The letter confirmed my suspicions," Seitz said. With Europe on the brink of war, Chamberlain, the British prime minister, travelled to Munich in September, 1938, and after signing the Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler, returned to London with the paper, announcing he'd secured "peace in our time." Within six months, Hitler had seized Czechoslovakia. Seitz's dramatic testimony wasn't the only bombshell dropped during the second day of testimony in Hollinger International's expedited three-day trial against Black, who is scheduled to testify today. Richard Breeden, a former U.S. Securities and Exchange Commissioner who led an internal company investigation into Black's management, yesterday portrayed the ousted newspaper baron as someone who "begins conversations by threatening everybody." Breeden described a meeting held last month between the company's special committee and Black. "It began with Mr. Black glaring at us and telling us that he had every intention of bringing actions against the members of the special committee," Breeden said. "He didn't care what the defamation law in the U.S. was. He told us the law in the U.K. and Canada was very different." Black said he would also have properties owned by directors Seitz and Graham Savage in the U.K. and Canada seized, Breeden said. "He was going to bring an action against them and fix their wagons good," Breeden said. "Those are my words." Black, who is among those Hollinger Inc. officials accused of taking $32.2 million (U.S.) in unauthorized payments, sued board members and Breeden earlier this month in an $850 million (Cdn) libel suit in Toronto. Black arrived in Wilmington in time for the trial and has been staying at the 91-year-old Hotel du Pont, where guests over the decades have included celebrities such as Charles Lindbergh and Ingrid Bergman, drawn by the promise of rooms with fireplaces, beds made up with imported linens, and brass-fitted bathtubs. Sterling silver comb, brush and mirror sets for years were standard on dressing tables and even today, wood carvings and plaster decorated with the ancient technique of "sgraffito" are scattered through the lobby and hallways. "You couldn't build a hotel like this today," said Charles Henning, the hotel's general manager. "It has a soul." Black's appearance today in front of Judge Leo Strine is expected to draw record crowds to the state capital's Chancery court. Hollinger International is seeking an injunction against Black to prevent him from selling his controlling stake in parent company Hollinger Inc. to David and Frederick Barclay's Press Holdings International Inc. Interim CEO Gordon Paris and the Hollinger International board argued Black has breached his fiduciary duty by trying to push the deal through. Evidence was also introduced that shows Black had the company's approval to accept non-competition payments, his lawyers argued. The so-called "unanimous written consent" letters were signed by a three-member executive committee made up of Black, David Radler and Richard Perle. While Seitz argued the documents were "a classic example of self-dealing," Black's lawyers said the notes, complemented by minutes of a Hollinger International joint board meeting, proved that the company's board knew about the non-competition payments. The payments were made when Hollinger International sold newspaper assets and provided Black and his closest allies with money in exchange for their promise not to compete for set amount of time against the new owners of the publications. Posted by: glenstonecottage at February 21, 2004 10:55 AM | PERMALINK"BTW "of that ilk" is properly used of some very specific Scottish titles: Lord Mackay of that ilk, or whatever. Since we're on this." I don't think that's quite right, John. The phrase means (used to mean?) "of that area," or maybe "of that fiefdom." So referring to the Duke of Plaza-Toro "and others of that ilk," means referring to the Duke and others from Plaza-Toro, not to the Duke and others like him. Yes. I know that's obscure and language changes and so forth. Posted by: Bernard Yomtov at February 21, 2004 11:07 AM | PERMALINKBlack is famous for terrorizing his editors and suing writers. I once read an interview with the man in a magazine that he bought and destroyed that was one long quote. The author had not dared to paraphrase what he said. I picture her hand shaking and her head bobbing during the interview. He fancies himself a biographer. I have another brick that he wrote years ago about a Quebec dictator. Ask black what "to fenestrate" means. Apparently, that's what his current wife did when he asked her to marry him! The magazine in question had been a Canadian institution for about 75
years. It ran an article severely criticizing the Ontario securities
commission for not investigating "allegations" that he had played fast
and free with their rules. They're supposed to do that, you know. A year
later Black bought the magazine. A few days after the sale, the editor
announced to his friends that he was gong to lunch with Black and if
Black insisted on interfering in the editorial policy of the magazine,
he would resign. The next day the editor resigned. The magazine? It
ended up as a free weekend insert in his daily rags. "Which leads me to wonder - what is the modern day equivalent word for shiftless, no-good, take-advantage-of-young-women kind of guy? Jerk is too broad." Speaking on my broad authority as a young'n: "Playa" "man-whore" or "himbo."
Since the Brits seem to use "bounder" and "cad" together, Black had no need to say White was "both". Saying so implies there is a difference. For what it's worth, I have a 1933 edition of the Oxford Universal Dictionary (a 2,500-page abridgment of the big one), and it defines "bounder" thusly: " A would-be stylish person kept at or beyond the bounds of society, or found irrepressible by it." A "cad" is "an ill-bred vulgar fellow. Now, usu., a person (rarely a female) who is lacking in the finer instincts or feelings." Posted by: Davis at February 21, 2004 11:50 AM | PERMALINKWhen I was an undergrad, I remember a English professor telling us about the changes that have happened to the English language over hundreds of years. Bounder was one of the words that he mentioned that's fallen out of use, as it's been replaced by other words. I only remember this because I thought it was so strange -- and it was a word that I'd never heard before. And I couldn't for the life of me see how bounder had anything to do with it's defined meaning. He told us that in the original sense, it, well, all made sense. He defined it thus: Society has norms of behavior. Some behaviors are "out of bounds". Those people are bounders, they cross over the boundaries of society. Strange what you can remember from the mid-80's when things come up. Also strange what sparks those memories. Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 21, 2004 12:42 PM | PERMALINKHaving to have endured, unfortuneately,more than one meeting where Lord Black chose to pontificate on the sucess of his business acumen, I am only suprised that he chose to use only 2 antiquated words. His normal choice would be at least 5 with full,equally antiquated,lectures on the roots of the words. After being trapped several times into attending meetings where he was either chairing or a member of the board, I paid very good money to avoid the meetings at all cost. To this day, I say it was some of the best money I have spent. Oh yes and by the way, I hope you Americans nail him for his corporate skulduggery (Connie would be proud of me!) that the Canadian markets and courts were to spineless to act on many years ago. Posted by: BMTS at February 21, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINKRe. "of that ilk" - that is used in certain Scottish titles, I think with the purpose of setting apart one branch of a noble family from another by naming their fief. Lord Mackay of that ilk vs. his cousin, the just thought-up-by Lord Mackay of Cromarty. Perhaps a bit more elegant than the German system (e.g. counts of Salm-Salm and Salm-Kyrburg, Margraves of Baden-Baden and Baden-Durlach). Posted by: Menshevik at February 22, 2004 03:05 AM | PERMALINKGo here for a radio debate on the subject: http://ftp.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/radio4/today/listen/audiosearch.pl?ProgID=1044516037 Posted by: Ken at March 24, 2004 03:53 AM | PERMALINKThe definition of a cad has largely remained the same since it was first used. I think it was a term used by the British upper classes to describe a man who was basically ill-bred, and likely to be violent, especially towards women. He would also fool around with women for his pleasure, possibly making promises about marriage, before eloping and then blackmailing her father, for example. The key is that the cad is upper class, would be well aware of his actions, and knew he was in the wrong, but behaved like a cad all the same. A bounder would likely behave the same, but he would not know any better. His aim may well be to marry into the aristocracy, for example, on the back of his newly aquired wealth. However, not been brought up in the aristocratic way of things, he would behave in an ungentlemanly way without knowing it; this was the bounder. The term 'cad' has not really changed over the years but I think that the term 'bounder' definately has. Nowadays, a bounder is someone (male or female) who defys the conventional means of aquriring wealth and status i.e. working hard and being respectable. He or she gains these things without really making any effort. They basically look out for number one. However, all this is hidden behind a facade of warm smiles and friendliness. A great many politicians are bounders, for example, because they gain wealth and status for doing nothing more than occasionally debating how the masses should be ruled over. They are fond of networking, of knowing the right people and of insinuating themselves into parties or clubs. They are fond of the finer things in life: drink, cigars, sex etc. They are usually in huge amounts of debt, are expert at flirting with members of the opposite sex, but only for the potential financial rewards. They also are 100 percent self-satisfied at all times. 21st century bounding is almost like a spiritual state. Opportunism is at the core of the philosophy. I recommend _The Bounders Companion_ by Harry Chance for more information on the modern bounder. As he says, after the armageddon, two species will remain, the rats and the bounders. Posted by: Ken at March 24, 2004 04:42 AM | PERMALINKCan you be both at the same time? This depends on which definition we are referring to. You cannot be an old-fashioned bounder and an old-fashioned cad at the same time, because if you are a bounder, you cannot be a cad. And if you are a cad, you cannot be a bounder. However, using the modern definition, as I have outlined above, it is possible to be both. A gentleman can be a cad, in the traditional sense and a bounder in the modern sense at the same time. Bu he would have to be an upper-class man. Which begs the question of what is the modern cad? I'm not sure. But I
would suggest that a modern cad might well be someone who is born into
wealth and abuses it. Whereas the modern bounder will most certaintly
not have been born into wealth. 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