Contact
Archives
Search
Blogs
Newspaper Blogs
English-Language
Press
Polls

February 18, 2004

MORE FROM THE MEMPHIS FLYER....Who would have guessed that the weekly Memphis Flyer would keep breaking new ground in the National Guard story? Last week Flyer senior editor Jackson Baker wrote about two pilots in George Bush's Alabama unit who had no recollection of ever seeing him there, and on Monday he was back with an update.

It turns out that both of his original sources knew John "Bill" Calhoun, the guy who claims Bush really did show up at Dannelly Air Base in 1972 and that he spent his time in Calhoun's office reading magazines. I think you could say they're skeptical about Calhoun's story:

“I’m not saying it wasn’t possible, but I can’t imagine Bill not introducing him around,” Mintz said. “Unless he [Bush] was an introvert back then, which I don’t think he was, he’d have spent some time out in the mainstream, in the dining hall or wherever. He’d have spent some time with us. Unless he was trying to avoid publicity. But he wasn’t well known at all then. It all seems a bit unusual.”

Bishop was even more explicit. “I’m glad he [Calhoun] remembered being with Lt. Bush and Lt. Bush’s eating sandwiches and looking at manuals. It seems a little strange that one man saw an individual, and all the rest of them did not. Because it was such a small organization. Usually, we all had lunch together.

Usually, we all had lunch together. Yes, that makes sense, doesn't it? Bush really doesn't seem like the studious wallflower type, does he?

Another former member of the unit, Wayne Rambo, also has some questions about the 15 "gratuitous" points that Bush supposedly got credited with on his retirement summary. Those 15 points were indeed routine, he says, but only if you otherwise met the normal requirements for a year:

“The 50-point minimum has always been taken very seriously, especially for pilots,” says Rambo. “The reason is that it takes a lot of taxpayer money to train a pilot, and you don’t want to see it wasted.”

For whatever reason, the elusive Lt. George W. Bush was awarded 41 actual points for his service in both Texas and Alabama during 1972 – though he apparently was given 15 “gratuitous” points -- presumably by his original Texas command -- enough to bring him up from substandard. That would have been a decided violation of the norm, according to Rambo, who stresses that the awarding of gratuitous points was clearly meant only as a reward to reservists for meeting their bottom line

“You had to get to 50 to get the gratuitous points, which applied toward your retirement benefits,” the former chief administrative officer recalls. “If you were 49, you stayed at 49; if you were 50, you got up to 65.”

If Rambo is right, Bush didn't meet the 50 point minimum — i.e., "fulfull his obligation" — in either of his final two years. He only made it by adding in his gratuitous points, and Rambo says that shouldn't have happened unless special favors were being done.

But then, it wouldn't have been the first time, would it?

Posted by Kevin Drum at February 18, 2004 10:31 PM | TrackBack


Comments

"Who would have guessed that the weekly Memphis Flyer would keep breaking new ground in the National Guard story"?

Well, who would have guessed Calpundit would have assumed point in this reporting, either?

The big shot New York Times and Washington Post have certainly been shaded in the coverage of this story, haven't they? I mean, it is still considered a story if they don't cover it, right?

Posted by: Sovereign Eye at February 18, 2004 10:43 PM | PERMALINK

Kind of reinforces the usual meaning of "gratuitous."
[webster.com]
1 a : given unearned or without recompense b : not involving a return benefit, compensation, or consideration c : costing nothing : FREE
2 : not called for by the circumstances : UNWARRANTED

Posted by: Geoff at February 18, 2004 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

I think you should rename the blog to CalSpindIt."

"I don't remember whether he came or not. Our unit had about 900-1,000 men and he could have attended many meetings without me ever knowing it," Turnipseed said this week.

As for Bush being AWOL, Turnipseed said, "No way. He was never assigned to our unit so he couldn't be AWOL. Like so many Guard and Reserve soldiers during the Vietnam War, they moved around and temporarily attended meetings with other units but Bush never left his original unit in Texas.”

This is what Turnipseed recently said, which you just ignore.

Here is a link to the MSNBC interview.

For shame Kevin. What you say here will be with you long after this politcal dust up is dead and gone.

Posted by: Poker Player (aka Jim) at February 18, 2004 10:50 PM | PERMALINK

Bunch of libruls in Memphis, apparently.
Woohoo!

Posted by: marky at February 18, 2004 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

Just like the old saying, "You can't spell AWOL without W."

(O.K., so it's not such an old saying.)

Posted by: mac at February 18, 2004 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

The fact that Calhoun claims Bush was 'reading'in his office tells me this story is a con job.

Posted by: meme at February 18, 2004 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, Geoff. Almost as unwarranted as a military intervention in a far away country with no weapons with which to hurt us.

Posted by: Boggs at February 18, 2004 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Were there really 900-1000 pilots like Bush?
I'll take the word of the guys that were doing the duty and actually looked for Bush.

Posted by: marky at February 18, 2004 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

If Calhoun had said they knocked a few beers back I might have bought this story. But reading..nah.

Posted by: meme at February 18, 2004 10:54 PM | PERMALINK

Agreed, Boggs. I earned my bars the hard way and he should have, too. I didn't check "do not volunteer," either.

Posted by: Geoff at February 18, 2004 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

Hmmmm... Poker Player (aka Jim) aka... Nedra Pickler?!

Posted by: reef the dog at February 18, 2004 10:58 PM | PERMALINK

what a slacker. No wonder he takes so much vacation time now.

Posted by: Troy at February 18, 2004 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

May I remind the wingnuts:
The official definition of AWOL is "absent for 30 days or less". The official defintion of desertion is "absent for more than 30 days with evidence of no intent to return to duty".

I'll let you do the math.

Posted by: rickenharp at February 18, 2004 11:33 PM | PERMALINK

Welcome to Bush is AWOL 24 hours day not matter how dead the story is! Kevin I used to have respect for you, but in the end all you turned out to be is a total bush hating hack.

Posted by: Dogbert at February 18, 2004 11:42 PM | PERMALINK

Dogbert,
Kevin may be a Bush-hater, but he's no hack, as he's amply proved.

Posted by: marky at February 18, 2004 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

It was obvious that Calhoun was lying through his teeth from the very beginning. In Texas, this story broke in 1994. It bubbled up a little bit again in 2000.

Suddenly, in 2004, Calhoun 'remembers' seeing Bush (and can count the times!), and Bush was in his office, reading safety and flight manuals.

Right. To bad Mr. Calhoun wasn't under oath -- because then he would have perjured himself.

Posted by: Timothy Klein at February 18, 2004 11:48 PM | PERMALINK

Time to bring back David Kay.
He can search for the missing records.. with a little help from OJ.

Posted by: marky at February 18, 2004 11:56 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, keep up the good work! (And keep this topic in the limelight!)

Posted by: me at February 18, 2004 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

Can someone tell me whether Bush received another performance review after June 1973? Or perhaps point me to the document archive?

Thanks.

Posted by: epist at February 19, 2004 12:15 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin:

Am I confused, or are you making nearly 2 grand a month on blog ads?

Posted by: ether at February 19, 2004 12:35 AM | PERMALINK

If the preppie cheerleader, Yalie fratboy, Harvard MBA didn't keep shamelessly whoring for photo-ops with the Guard and at NASCAR, this story might die. But he can't, and it won't.

All hat, no cattle. Afraid of horses.

The Bush shtick only resonates with the common man up to a point. We all fake it, sometimes. But this, this, this, this, that and the other? It doesn't look like there actually is a pony in this pile of shit.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 19, 2004 12:55 AM | PERMALINK

from ....
WTF Is It Now??
http://maruthecrankpot.blogspot.com/
'We had no dentist at Dannelly Field'
Whoopsies!
Master Sgt. James Copeland "remembers meeting Bush on two occasions. He does not remember the precise dates. On one occasion, Copeland said, Bush and Lt. Col. John 'Bill' Calhoun came to Copeland's office with a question about where to mail Bush's checks. Copeland thinks he referred the pay question to the paymaster for the Texas National Guard. The other time Copeland remembers meeting Bush was at the base canteen. While Copeland said he thinks claims that Bush was AWOL are baseless, he said one thing puzzles him.

'All Bush would have to do to get proof of his Alabama service is pick up the phone and contact military records,' he said. 'It seems a little odd that he hasn't done that.' Copeland also is puzzled by dental records that Bush produced as evidence of his duties at Dannelly.

'We had no dentist at Dannelly Field,' Copeland said. 'The only dentists were at Maxwell (Air Force Base).'"
http://maruthecrankpot.blogspot.com/2004_02_01_maruthecrankpot_archive.html#107712523211013207

Posted by: hjmler at February 19, 2004 01:00 AM | PERMALINK

I smell a koufax kevin, keep on it.

To comment from your previous post: "So the story is stuck in an endless speculation loop unless some enterprising reporter comes up with actual new evidence."

Well, some enterprising reporter named James Hatfield did seem to have some evidence for his book Fortunate Son. Too bad the lives of his wife and kids were threatened and he eventually turned up dead of a "suicide." Project PULL is the real story. Too bad it will never get any further.

Posted by: d at February 19, 2004 01:21 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin continues to mine gold.

Thank you for creating a public forum where competing ideas can be discussed.

This issue is far from over. Bush appears to have been Absent. There was some question as to when he received permission to Leave.

Bush has no alibi or documentation during this time. And in fact his records just coincidentally seem to be rather sketchy during this time.

He did get an honorable discharge. But he admits he "worked something out" with the military. If it is honorable, why isn't it clear in the records?

This will continue, as it should. If we weren't at war, and if he wasn't self promoting himself as a War President, and if he wasn't bragging about being a fighter pilot, and if he hadn't danced on the aircraft carrier acting like he had seen combat, ... then this wouldn't be an issue.

Posted by: ch_noir at February 19, 2004 01:24 AM | PERMALINK

Very nice. The only thing that's gonna save this Bush character is another terrorist attack that he knows about beforehand, again.

Posted by: Peter at February 19, 2004 01:34 AM | PERMALINK

ether

If Kevin is making 2K a month from ads I consider that absolutely fine. 1) He (or someone) is paying for the site. 2) He is clearly spending a lot of time on this. He is also doing a lot of good by running this site. GWB obviously does not want anything known about his past and if he wants to be elected president we need to know.

Are you jealous? If (and I don't know if you have a website) would anyone pay to advertise on your site?

Posted by: ____league at February 19, 2004 02:04 AM | PERMALINK

Make it stop Make It Stop MAKE IT STOP!!!

Posted by: Moronic Brownshirt Fuck at February 19, 2004 03:23 AM | PERMALINK

Excellent reading in today's Salon
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/19/bush/index.html

about the chickenhawk preznit. Here is a taste:

"..They didn't go out of their way to attack neocons for having avoided combat service -- Vietnam vets have always been the most nonjudgmental members of their generation. Rather, simply by showing their faces in politics, as veterans supporting a veteran, they invited comparisons unflattering to Bush and his friends."

As a vet, the pictures of Kerry with his band of brothers really appeal to me and point out the failures of the chickenhawk's in this administration. I am an ex-deniac, but this Kerry veteran thing has legs because it is a constant reminder of what Bush, Cheney, Delay, Wolfowitz, Perle, and others did during Vietnam.

Posted by: FarmerJack at February 19, 2004 03:25 AM | PERMALINK

Part of the transcript with Calhoun on Hardball on February 16.

MATTHEWS: Does anyone else share your memories of serving with him? Is there any other witnesses out there besides yourself, Mr. Calhoun?

CALHOUN: Yes, there are. My ex-wife. She remembers me talking about him. There was Officer...

MATTHEWS: Didn‘t he have any buddies? Didn‘t he have anybody he hung out with?

CALHOUN: He didn‘t hang out with us really. He—You mean buddies I hung out with?

MATTHEWS: No, him. Didn‘t he have any buddies from the Guard that he remembers having lunch with, going out for a beer with him?

CALHOUN: You know, he really stayed to himself. And you have to realize the Guard was very political then. It was—George Wallace had just won re-election. He was—It was very heavily Democratic.

And there was a lot of politics. And him being a Republican there working for a Republican in a state that was mostly Democratic at the time, he wasn‘t very popular. So people really didn‘t have anything to do with him. The ones that knew he was there and the ones, who—no one else...

MATTHEWS: Bill, we‘ve got to come back. Bill, hang in there. We‘ll get right back and talk about your Vietnam era experience, serving as commanding officer for the president of the United States, George W. Bush.


Sounds convincing, eh?

Posted by: Anthrax Coulter at February 19, 2004 04:55 AM | PERMALINK

Sorry, but I believe Rambo is wrong.I was in a unit that met every two months for 2 days (4 pts), then 15 days active (15 pts, which gave a total of 39 for the year...We only were able to get to the 50 for a "good year" by getting the 15 gratuitous points.
4x6=24
1x15=15
39+15=54

I was in an AF Reserve Unit, but I believe the same rules applied..this was the same time frame in the early 70s.

Posted by: Joe B at February 19, 2004 05:23 AM | PERMALINK

The question for the next White House press briefing: "To clear up the National Guard controversy, would the president recommend lie detector tests for Albaugh and Bartlett?"

What I'd like to know immediately though is what Luftwaffe mechanic was the model for Albaugh's personal grooming?

Posted by: Sam Spade at February 19, 2004 05:42 AM | PERMALINK

I was in an AF Reserve Unit, but I believe the same rules applied..this was the same time frame in the early 70s.

actually, you can both be right, because the rules may well be different for the guard and the reserves.

basically, it was probably a question of meeting your requirements, as opposed to "points" per se. If your requirements were for bi-monthy UTAs, and you met them, you got your points. But bush was supposed to get 48 inactive and 15 active points....

Posted by: paul lukasiak at February 19, 2004 05:48 AM | PERMALINK

I am confused about the difference between active and inactive service. For his first two years, Geo's points were mostly active. in 71 and 72, his points were mostly inactive. Between may 73 and july 73, the points are mostly active again. Also, if Geo W resigned effective 10/1/73, why was he given a full year of gratuitous points for the year 5/73 to 5/74?
Separately, what do you make of the fact that Geo's Pilot's Aptitude Score was crossed out and 25 written after it on the report of his 1/17/68 test?

Posted by: steve s at February 19, 2004 05:56 AM | PERMALINK

I have a question:

Is the Vietnam veteran carpenter I employed last year to do some work in my basement qualified to be Commander in Chief and have the moral authority to send American troops into harms way but George Bush, legally sworn in as President whether I like it or not, is not morally fit to do so?

Kevin,
I'm a Democrat I feel you've hurt your credibility pursuing this trivial, irrelevant nonsense. Flight training is dangerous. Fighter jet training is dangerous beyond anything you or I can imagine. I once closed my eyes coming down a snowy hill when my car was slipping and sliding out of control. You can't do that in a jet fighter and get lucky as I did.

BASIC training is dangerous. In the basic training unit my own brother trained with back in the late 60's, one poor boy was killed when his own hand grenade rolled back down the hill at him.

We never had to face these dangers. Lets be thankful and not churlish about George Bush just because we're partisans.


Posted by: Karen at February 19, 2004 05:59 AM | PERMALINK

Reading? Bush reading?

Could anything be more unbelievable?

Posted by: hueyplong at February 19, 2004 06:07 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin:

Am I confused, or are you making nearly 2 grand a month on blog ads?

Posted by ether at February 19, 2004 12:35 AM | PERMALINK

Why not both? (Almost certainly the former, and I hope the latter.)

Posted by: TonyB at February 19, 2004 06:10 AM | PERMALINK

Did the headline read "Rambo Questions Bush's Service Record"? When is Stallone going to endorse a candidate?

Posted by: Stuart Levine at February 19, 2004 06:10 AM | PERMALINK

"Karen's" post puts forth a rationale so lame that Scott McClellan would be embarrassed to run with it. And to include the word "crdibility" shows a level of self-confidence that is totally unwarranted.

The good news is that such plants are the best objective sign that Kevin is on the mark with this.

Posted by: hueyplong at February 19, 2004 06:11 AM | PERMALINK

Folks, the fighter pilot community is a relatively small one, whether now or then. A very incestous lot, especially in Guard and Reserve units where turnover is next to non-existent. I know, because I was one. And units may have 800-1000 members, but only about two dozen(give or take) pilots.

The thought that he went unnoticed by other pilots is ludicrous. If the boys knew that there was a new guy around, regardless of politics, the first thing they would've asked is why the hell he wasn't flying. Believe me, had he just been sitting around in any office, readings pubs or picking his nose, he would've been noticed.

Karen: just because he did the training means zip. No, its not easy. But that is a moot point. He made a committment, took the taxpayers money and then buggered off.

Posted by: bobDawg at February 19, 2004 06:17 AM | PERMALINK

Re: "We never had to face these dangers."

Karen - Who is the "we" you are referencing??? There are many vets here who faced real dangers - in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, & Iraq. John Kerry and Max Cleland had to face dangers much worse than Bush could ever dream about, yet they continue to be slandered by Bush's political allies.

And yes, your carpenter is much better qualified to be President than the current resident of the white house.

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 06:20 AM | PERMALINK

Karen, you make some good points, but I think you miss the essential one.

I came of draft age just as the draft ended after Vietnam. We were all very aware of what the choices were. Let's not kid ourselves. Those who joined in the National Guard in the Vietnam era were serving their country, true, but the reality is that at the time the Guard was viewed as a way to avoid service in Vietnam. By all acounts that's how George W. Bush viewed it. Strings were pulled to get him into the Guard.

The fact that Bush got priveleged treatment is an issue, though he was hardly alone in that respect. What really fuels this is the way that Bush (and his party) have made such political hay by denigrating the patriotism and courage of Democrats.

Bush's record should be investigated. We should not make more of it than it merits, but the country deserves to be told the truth about the real wartime history of this action figure president.

Posted by: No Preference at February 19, 2004 06:30 AM | PERMALINK

The more I hear about Bush dodging military service, the more likely it is that I vote for him.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 06:37 AM | PERMALINK

Matt -

you were going to vote for him anyway -

if you want to ruin the country by voting for him, I guess that is your right as a American citizen -

if he loses, can we count on you leaving the country???????

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 06:42 AM | PERMALINK

Why do this facts about the National Guard rules keep coming out in drips and drabs?

Posted by: praktike at February 19, 2004 06:47 AM | PERMALINK

I'm a Democrat I feel you've hurt your credibility pursuing this trivial, irrelevant nonsense...

and yet you are curiously unconcerned about what posting this tripe does to yours.

Posted by: danelectro at February 19, 2004 07:02 AM | PERMALINK

Bush Quotes on Guard Service:

"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."

Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."


Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."

Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998

In his own words, he pretty much sums up his view of his "service".

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 07:03 AM | PERMALINK

While I hope you keep beavering away on this story, I wonder whether we do not already have enough. If the Bush campaign starts using the carrier footage in a Warrior Prince advertising, I think the Dems would find the following ad would resonate:

Uniformed Bush strutting on the carrier. Snickering, rising to a chorus of guffaws, is heard on the sound track.

Posted by: Bob H at February 19, 2004 07:06 AM | PERMALINK

'Karen,'

Don't include me in your 'we.' I was this close to getting into pilot training in 78 at the Air Force academy, but was rejected because I didn't have perfect eyesight, and I didn't have the pull of a rich congressman daddy.

So instead the taxpayers paid to try to teach the incompetent young Bush to be a pilot while I got nadda.

Excuse me if I don't kiss his feet because he managed to not kill himself with his own grenade.

Posted by: Tripp at February 19, 2004 07:07 AM | PERMALINK

Uhhhmmm, joke alert methinks.

I once closed my eyes coming down a snowy hill when my car was slipping and sliding out of control. You can't do that in a jet fighter and get lucky as I did.

BASIC training is dangerous. In the basic training unit my own brother trained with back in the late 60's, one poor boy was killed when his own hand grenade rolled back down the hill at him.

Posted by: anthony at February 19, 2004 07:08 AM | PERMALINK

Let me get this straight.

We are supposed to support some nutcase who was stupid enough to march off to someone else's civil war some 11,000 miles from home, then proceed to help slaughter some 1 million Vietnamese?

Whoops! I forgot, LBJ was a great liberal.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 07:17 AM | PERMALINK

RICKENHARP- You are wrong. Very very wrong when you say "'May I remind the wingnuts:
The official definition of AWOL is "absent for 30 days or less". The official defintion of desertion is "absent for more than 30 days with evidence of no intent to return to duty'.
I'll let you do the math."

There is no "magic number" for AWOL. 30 days is when a servicemember who is AWOL can be Dropped From Roll (DFR), and no longer accounted for by their unit. It doesn't make them a deserter. A deserter is someone who leaves military control, or attempts to leave military control, with no intention of returning. If I tell my commander to "Go fuck himself, I'm quitting the Army" he could bring me up on the charge of desertion (or at least attemptin to desert). Depending on the circumstances the charge would probably not stick (although disrespecting a superior officer would be a slam-dunk, but I don't want to confuse you further).
AWOL is, at its most basic definition, a soldier who is unnacounted for. No one knows where he is, no one knows what his status is, and once they are returned to military control they will figure out just what to do with him (maybe even determine they were a deserter).

All this stuff is in the Uniform Code of Military Justice which the DOD kindly places online for anyone to view. Maybe you should try and read it some time.

Posted by: SSG B at February 19, 2004 07:20 AM | PERMALINK

If they stopped obfuscating, this would go away.

Ya know, if 2 weeks ago, Bush put out a statement that said something to the effect of...

"The Vietnam war was winding down, I was discouraged by my plane being put out of commission, so I basically tried to get on with my life, with the politics, and the business school. I shouldn't have slacked off, but at the time, it didn't seem to make a difference. It was wrong to not take my guard duties seriously, and I deeply regret it."

This thing would have been done with, over, finished. Bush is so damned arrogant though. He is one cocky son of a bitch(Barbara). Admitting that he screwed around would cost him more, vis a vis, his self image, than he figures the political cost of dancing around the issue does.

It's his career though. Let him go back to Crawford.

Posted by: trifecta at February 19, 2004 07:23 AM | PERMALINK

Just so we're clear here, the story is that Li'l Bushie spent his time at Dannelly reading, but not drinking:

Mintz -- “I talked to one of my buddies the other day and asked if he could remember Bush at drill at any time, and he said, ‘Naw, ol’ George wasn’t there. And he wasn’t at the Pit, either.’”

The “Pit” was The Snake Pit, a nearby bistro where the squadron’s pilots would gather for frequent after-hours revelry.

Not once in three months at Dannelly did Bush go out for a snootful with the other fighter jocks.

Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight.

Posted by: Erik at February 19, 2004 07:26 AM | PERMALINK

SSG B -

you are incorrect -

during the 60s and 70s, any awol who was absent for more than 30 days was automatically listed as a deserter -

when (and if) caught they may or may not have been charged with desertion, especially if they has political pull -

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 07:30 AM | PERMALINK

Ah, yes, Mintz and Bishop again. Two partisan Democrats who are "bitter" about the loss of their jobs at Eastern Airlines and blame it on the Bushes.

Talk about credibility problems!

Why does Kevin CONTINUALLY CHERRY-PICK the evidence?

The cherry-picking here at Calpundit is FAR, FAR worse than anything done on WMD.

Too bad. Kevin's credibility suffers with his distortions of the evidence.

Posted by: Al at February 19, 2004 07:30 AM | PERMALINK

AWOL is, at its most basic definition, a soldier who is unnacounted for. No one knows where he is, no one knows what his status is, and once they are returned to military control they will figure out just what to do with him (maybe even determine they were a deserter).

SSG B -- Congratulations. You just described Bush's military career during the summer of 1972.

His first transfer to a paper unit in Alabama was rejected in May, but Bush had already moved to Montgomery. He didn't request another transfer until September. That's three months when the Guard expected him to be flying in Houston, when in fact he was doing whatever the hell he felt like in Alabama.

Posted by: Erik at February 19, 2004 07:33 AM | PERMALINK

Matt -

LBJ was your hero, not mine. He was adored by Texans.

I voted for Goldwater who was a real conservative. He was not one of your phony conservatives like Bush who never saw a budget increase he didn't like.

How many children and grandchildren do you have??? They are the ones who are going to bear the burden to pay off Bush's overspending.

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 07:37 AM | PERMALINK

"Who would have guessed that the weekly Memphis Flyer would keep breaking new ground in the National Guard story"

Well, its a lot more like y that the "real" paper doing so. The CA is a rotten paper, and the flyer routinely has better stories about local news and politics. As far as I have been able to tell, the CA still hasn't spoken to either of these men. IF there is any more information to be gleaned about this story from these two men, it will eb the Flyer and not the CA that gleans it.

"Bunch of libruls in Memphis, apparently. "

Well, there's at least two of us :)

Posted by: kevin at February 19, 2004 07:38 AM | PERMALINK

praktike- "Why do this facts about the National Guard rules keep coming out in drips and drabs?"

Because no one here bothers to get their facts straight. Or, allow me to correct myself. They are too incompetent to know where to look to even attempt to get their facts straight. Seriously Mr. Drum, before you posted your bit about how the math doesn't add up, did you bother to check? A reservist CANNOT complete the minimum required drills and annual training and still get 15 points. The 15 points is MANDATORY for a good year. The bullshit about how it would be "49 is 49, but 50 is 65" is a total crock. It is WRONG, and you are being willfully misled.
Here, I'll do all of you a bit of a favor. Cut and paste these addresses into your browsers and check it out.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm
The Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's the rules governing what servicemembers can and cannot do.
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/
The Air Force's publications link. Here is where you can go to look up all those interesting tidbits on WHAT ACTUAL AIR FORCE POLICY IS REGARDING SERVICE AND METHODS OF FULFILLMENT
http://www.agd.state.tx.us/main/air/airindexframe.htm
That is the publications page of the Texas Air National Guard. That is where you'd go to see what Texas specifically requires. IMPORTANT NOTE!!!! You should have read and understand what the Air Force's policy is FIRST before you go reading what the TXANG says.

So please, before engaging in a oral-pediatry moment, go read some of the background on what you're saying.

Posted by: SSG B at February 19, 2004 07:41 AM | PERMALINK

We all should know that Bush suffers from castration anxiety that causes him to hide, lie, bounce up and down, whear a cowboy hat, and I suspect he whacks off in the White House shower. But of all Bush's little masturbation lies, why pick this particular lie?

After all, it was the great liberals of 1963 who started the Vietnam slaughter, and it was folks who skipped the draft that helped stop the slaughter. So, here we are, a bunch of Democratic Liberal loons, celebrating the most despicable episode in Democratic Liberal history, the genocidal slaughter of a million otherwise innocent Indochinese people.


I just don't get it. Maybe Democratic Liberals simply have a natural tendency toward genocidal slaughter.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 07:43 AM | PERMALINK

Spotted Dog- I'd love for you to provide me with a regulation number. I have access to some pretty ancient regs and if I knew what I was looking for I'd find it. I'll concede 30 days was a magic number in the 70s, but the requirement is still "without intention of returning to military control" for desertion. If his Squadron Leader calls him at day 30 and asks "LT Bush, are you coming to drill anytime soon?" and he says "yes, I'll be there next month", or "I'll come in next week to make-up drill" he is NOT a deserter.
I was wrong to say that "30 days does not a deserter make", but it's just as wrong to say "After 30 days he is automaticaly a deserter."

Posted by: SSG B at February 19, 2004 07:50 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe Bush spent his lunches shooting up in the bathroom?

Posted by: Maynard Handley at February 19, 2004 07:51 AM | PERMALINK

Right Al, and you believe a guy whose claims contradict the available record. Too bad you have no credibility to suffer with your distortion of the record.

Posted by: Lori Thantos at February 19, 2004 07:57 AM | PERMALINK

Matt -

hmmmm!! i thought i went to Nam to stop the communist slaughter of south vietnamese teachers, doctors, and police - and I thought i was a Republican conservative in the 60s who voted for Goldwater -

you and your boy Bush are two sick puppies -

say anything to stop the truth from being told - advance any argument no matter how bogus in order to divert attention from the skeletons in his closet

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 07:58 AM | PERMALINK

He got to miss this kind flight. True story.
_________________________________________________

It was my last day in Vietnam. I was at An Hoa, West of Da Nang, and had my orders to go home but had no way to get there. An Hoa had been under attack for several days and there was no normal transportation in or out. A friend suggested I hitch a ride on a medevac chopper so that’s what I did.

The helicopter carried 12 wounded. Many of them had been stripped naked to allow the doctors at the field hospital where they were to land to more quickly find and treat their wounds. The most seriously wounded were in the rear of the helicopter so as to be the first unloaded. One of them was being given mouth to mouth resuscitation by one of the helicopter’s crewmen. There was much screaming. One Marine screamed “mama” continuously. Another thrashed in a semi-unconscious state and every time he touched the burned body of the Marine lying next to him that Marine screamed so loudly that it seemed to drown out every other sound. The crewman assisting with the mouth to mouth motioned for me to check on a Marine lying naked and muddy on his stomach motionless near where I was sitting. I touched him on the back and was shocked when he turned and looked up at me. His face expressed fear but also relief that he was not as seriously hurt as the others. I gave the crew chief the thumbs up, returned to my seat and almost as an afterthought took out my camera and snapped a picture. I expect that had I not taken that picture I might not now be able to recall that day at all.
After the helicopter landed and the wounded were unloaded I stepped off last and was confronted by a medic who shouted: “Where are you hit?” I shouted in reply: “I’m not wounded, I’m going home.” As if he didn’t believe me he patted down my body and shouted: “Are you sure?” At last satisfied he let me pull away.

The following week in the middle of a bright sunny day I sat alone in a dark basement bar in San Diego. Two Mexicans along with the bartender were huddled in front of the television in awe as Walter Cronkite announced: “The Eagle has landed.” I began to feel an intense loneliness as if I were an alien stranded away from my home planet.

Posted by: FUBAR at February 19, 2004 08:02 AM | PERMALINK

Karen:

I'm a Democrat I feel you've hurt your credibility pursuing this trivial, irrelevant nonsense...

Does anybody know a good Joe Lieberman exorcist? I'd like to buy this woman a session.


Posted by: Straight-eye for the queer gal at February 19, 2004 08:05 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin, the stench you've been bathing in with this non-story and your very, very selective reporting (replaying old, long ago corrected comments from Turnipseed even after it had been pointed out to you that what you were quoting was dated and edited; not mentioning that the two "I don't recall guys" Mintz and Bishop, admit a personal dislike of Bush and have an obvious axe to grind, and not bothering to mention that there were 1000 people on the base, we're talking about six total days, 33 years ago so it wouldn't be shocking in the least if some people never saw/met Bush while he was there) will be with you long after this is gone.

You've joined the tinhat land occupied by democrat.com, buzzflash and the like. Congrats.

BTW, there's no know cure for your strain of swamp fever...

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 08:06 AM | PERMALINK

After all, it was the great liberals of 1963 who started the Vietnam slaughter,

Actually, it was Eisenhower who first committed US troops to Vietnam, IIRC. The search for a "third force" to put themselves between the Communists and the Generals.

The French adventure in IndoChina started it, which was a CONSERVATIVE French venture which was backed by French Catholic Missionaries in the early 19th century. They wanted to bring religion to the heathen, see, and grab a big chunk of IndoChina doing it.

After WWII, the French tried to reassert control over the region, BACKED BY THE US AND BRITAIN.

This is the situation. The US AND BRITAIN were fully supportive of the French war in IndoChina, to try and reassert colonial control over Vietnam. That's the truth, and nothing but the truth.

Trying to blame Vietnam on "liberals" is just pure idiocy, and willful idiocy, since a few seconds with Google and give you the straight dope.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 08:08 AM | PERMALINK

SSG B -

i did not say Bush was a deserter -


however, i am saying he avoided combat duty and has bragged about it and is a hypocrite -

i am not saying he did anything illegal to avoid combat duty -

however, i am concerned that he and his defenders continue to justify his avoidance while throwing mud at genuine heros like John Kerry and Max Cleland because they happen to have different political views -

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 08:08 AM | PERMALINK

I have a question for all you naysayers:

If you're so disgusted, offended, etc. by Kevin following this story, and it's completely lowered his esteem and you vowed never to read his blog again, etc... how come you are here to bash him within 5 minutes of him posting?

There's two possibilities I see. One, is that you're just lying, and you know this is hardly the only thing he's blogged about.

(CAN EDWARDS WIN?,REMEMBERING HARRY TRUMAN,IN DEFENSE OF JIMMY CARTER,PIGEONHOLING,DEAN BOWS OUT
COURTROOM NEWS,GUNS AND BUTTER,KOUFAX AWARDS,WHERE THERE'S SMOKE,WORD QUIZ,SUVs,ABORTION IN WICHITA,GAY MARRIAGE,BAD POLICY?....OR NO POLICY?,REPUBLICANS RUNNING SCARED?,KERRY AFFAIR....FINAL EDITION,BLOG ADVERTISING,FREE TRADE)

Let me remind you, liars go to hell.

Anyway, the other possibility is that you never read this site anyway and you're responding to the Code Red Freep Alert. Freepers go to hell, too.

I'm sure Kevin has realized this too. So, geesh, quit while you're behind. It's not like any of you has brought anything to the discussion besides "NOOOOO! LIES! DAMNED LIES! JESUS TOLD ME!"

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 19, 2004 08:15 AM | PERMALINK

Monkey,

I did a google search.

When Kennedy came into office, there were 700 American troops in Vietnam. When Kennedy was killed the number was 12,000. By 1965, the number was up to 200,000. I think the great liberal had us up to 500,000 troops in theater by 1967.

Dunno what it means to send a few divisions over to slaugher innocent indochinese, but the Republican number of 700 American troops was not enough to get the job done.

Nope, it was completely the liberal Democrats, people like John Kerry, that were responsible for this slaughter.

Now, here we are on Kevin Drum's web site, running for the presidency, on the platform that our Democratic nominee participated in the slaughter of 1 million innocents, while Bush carefully avoided said slaughter.

Remind Kerry, do not hire Kevin Drum as a campaign advisor.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 08:18 AM | PERMALINK

Matt Young:

And I can assume you were out there in the anti-war protest marches? With Hanoi Jane?

Posted by: peejay at February 19, 2004 08:22 AM | PERMALINK

When Kennedy came into office, there were 700 American troops in Vietnam. When Kennedy was killed the number was 12,000. By 1965, the number was up to 200,000. I think the great liberal had us up to 500,000 troops in theater by 1967.

Uh huh, and the Converatives at home were crying bloody murder about it too, eh?

Funny, but I don't think that's how it was.

Yeah, I'm sure Bush joined the Guard because he opposed the war. You might want to read what Bush himself said about this very issue:

"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."
Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998

Valiant, heroic leader? Willing to go the extra mile to serve his country? Do his duty?

Or draft-evader? Eager to become a pilot in the Guard to avoid being "an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam..."

You tell me.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 08:23 AM | PERMALINK

Matt Young -

you are young in brains as well as years if you think a google search will tell the whole story -

the only person that i know that participated in that "slaughter" you talk about is Calley, who by the way is a rpeublican -

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 08:24 AM | PERMALINK

So, here we are, a bunch of Democratic Liberal loons, celebrating the most despicable episode in Democratic Liberal history, the genocidal slaughter of a million otherwise innocent Indochinese people.

Uh, Matt, the Vietnam War has roots that go back to Truman, and it ended under Gerald Ford. In between, I count two Republican and two Democratic Presidents, none of whom were liberals in foreign policy. Vietnam was a bi-partisan debacle and the murder of those millions can only be laid at the feet of the American Empire and its governments. As a Democrat and a liberal, I opposed that war with every fiber of my being, and I resent your despicable attempt to lay the blame for those killings on generic "Democratic Liberals." You're beginning to sound like Coulter and her deranged rants about treasonous Democrats.

Posted by: Basharov at February 19, 2004 08:26 AM | PERMALINK

OK, OK. I will admit that Nixon did his share of the killing, about 1/3 of them. But, I do believe that Eisenhower was retired during the time frame of 1963 to 1974.

You gotta actually be part of the killing spree to get indicted. That leaves Eisenhower out and Kerry in.

Kevin is the one who keeps bringing this up. If Kevin does not want the Democratic Liberals to run on their Vietnam war record, then Kevin should drop the topic. If Kevin thinks this is a valid issue, then Kevin should propose that we re-invade Vietnam, because all the conditions that made the Liberals start the war are still in place.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 08:34 AM | PERMALINK

It's sad to see these kind of exchanges, revealing as they do the self-deception and just plain stupidy of American gabfests. What they have to say makes only one half-literate point---the United States has exactly the president it deserves.

Posted by: Philo Vance at February 19, 2004 08:34 AM | PERMALINK

I keep telling my friends that this story isn't dead. There are too many loose ends. Some enterprising reporter will want to cut his or her teeth on it, kinda like Woodward & Bernstein (?) did with the Nixon story.

Having said that, I believe the answers to all this are in Houston.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 19, 2004 08:35 AM | PERMALINK

Karen: just because he did the training means zip. No, its not easy. But that is a moot point. He made a committment, took the taxpayers money and then buggered off.

Posted by bobDawg at February 19, 2004 06:17 AM | PERMALINK

Wrong, bobDawg

It isn't like riding a bicycle.

Bush trained to fly the F102. By mid 1972 it was established that the F102 was going out of service to be replaced by another jet.

If Bush was going to continue to fly, he would have to be trained in the new fighter, re-qualify, etc.

Given that his commitment was going to be up in '73, if he was not going to extend, then he should not have kept flying.

It is not unusual to see pilots who will not commit to an extension in order to be trained in an new aircraft be assigned desk duty, or be released early.

Posted by: Poker Player (aka Jim) at February 19, 2004 08:36 AM | PERMALINK

Bash -

i was (and still am) for that war with every fiber of my being - and at the time i despised people like you who opposed it -

my apologies!! I was wrong about your motives and your patriotism

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 08:39 AM | PERMALINK

Poker: His commitment was up in 1974.

Posted by: boloboffin at February 19, 2004 08:39 AM | PERMALINK

Max Cleland lost his limbs in a grenade ACCIDENT. Not combat. He dropped a grenade getting out of a helicopter, at an airbase, picked it up and it went off. Grenade accidents are common.

Posted by: Arlo at February 19, 2004 08:44 AM | PERMALINK

Max Cleland lost his limbs in a grenade ACCIDENT. Not combat. He dropped a grenade getting out of a helicopter, at an airbase, picked it up and it went off. Grenade accidents are common.

They're not common if you're not somewhere they're being used.

I wonder how many grenade accidents Bush's TANG unit had?

Please.

Here is the story of Max Cleland's grenade accident, from somebody who WAS THERE:

The 2nd of the 12th Cavalry was engaged in a combat operation at the time of this incident. Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone (some might call the entire country of Vietnam a combat zone). (Is Iraq a combat zone?) Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harms way.

As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of "ownership" went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.

Maury Cralle'
Battalion Executive Officer
2d/12th Cavalry Battalion
1st Air Cavalry Division
During the assault on Khe Shan

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 08:54 AM | PERMALINK


Key Republican meme: denigrate the active-duty service of men like Kerry and Cleland, who were wounded in the service of their country, while celebrating the erratic part-time service of Dubya, who never faced hostile fire but did show up for a dental exam in Alabama.

Posted by: Californian at February 19, 2004 09:00 AM | PERMALINK

Arlo, you are an idiot, not only for being so unbelievably callous but for believing Ann Coulter.

I bet Sam could beat your ass with his one arm, anyway.

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 19, 2004 09:00 AM | PERMALINK

At a base with no dentists, no less.

People denigrating Max Cleland are disgusting.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 09:01 AM | PERMALINK

Arlo,

Shame on You, Ann Coulter

If you had any empathy for wounded veterans, you’d read The Permanent Scars of Iraq

Posted by: Jim S at February 19, 2004 09:02 AM | PERMALINK

This one doesn't pass the stink test.

Let's see whether the SCLM does any follow-up.

Posted by: Tod Westlake at February 19, 2004 09:10 AM | PERMALINK

Arlo -

you have been listening to Ann Coulter who knows nothing about Max Cleland - STOP slandering American heros!!!!

Cleland volunteered for a combat tour with the 1st Air Cavalry Division (same outfit that Tommy Franks did a combat tour with years later) - he was awarded a Silver Star for Gallantry in Action

http:see //gordon.army.mil/ocos/rdiv/REGTNCO/cleland.asp

Cleland volunteered for and served with the 2nd Battalion of the 12th Cavalry at Khe Sanh, surrounded by 20,000 NVA soldiers.

On April 4 1968, Cleland was at the battalion command post when NVA forces began a rocket and mortar barrage in an attempt to dislodge the Americans from their position. According to Cleland's Silver Star Order:

"Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army."

Three days later, Cleland went to set up a radio relay on a nearby mountain. He and his signals team were airlifted to the site. While disembarking from the helicopter, Cleland saw a grenade that he thought had fallen from his webbing - the grenade turned out to belong to an inexperienced soldier who had incorrectly set the pin for a hair-trigger detonation - Cleland did not drop it

it is a lie to say that Cleland dropped a grenade getting out of a helicopter -

it is a lie to imply it happened at an "airbase" - it was not an "airbase" - it was a montaintop LZ in the middle of a combat zone surrounded by NVA regulars - ask a vet what the differnce is - i don't have time to educate you

how low will Bush sink just to win an election? he should stop the libel

730 Americans were killed in action at Khe Sanh, 2,642 were wounded, and 7 were officially classified as missing in action

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 09:12 AM | PERMALINK

I well remember the special treatment National Guard recruits got from drill sergeants (all of whom were combat vets) in Army basic training. Sweet.

Posted by: BillR at February 19, 2004 09:14 AM | PERMALINK

Challenge for those who insist on showing up to comment on this topic despite their obvious dislike to Kevin's take on this:

Please provide an example of exactly what it would take to prove to you that young Mr. Bush was, in fact, AWOL during his tenure with the guard.

The seems to be a mountain of evidence (cherry-picked or not) that there are serious discrepencies in Mr. Bush's service record. Is this evidence of anything nefarious? Of course not. But to continue to insist, at volumes that increase by the week, that 'this story is dead, Kevin, so just drop it!" while not actually challenging the basic facts of Kevin's research into this, seems disingenuous. If there's evidence that Mr. Bush was AWOL, it's evidence. Screaming that it doesn't matter doesn't make it go away, or refute it.

Being rational people, I'm sure you're capable of changing your mind once presented with new evidence. I wonder again what it would take to convince you that Mr. Bush was in fact AWOL?

Posted by: Travis at February 19, 2004 09:15 AM | PERMALINK

I'm interested in hearing whether Matt Young marched with Hanoi Jane.

Did you Matt?

Or if you were too young, would you have?

Or are you another lying hypocrite who holds other people up to standard he himself would never do?

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus at February 19, 2004 09:16 AM | PERMALINK

Key Republican meme: denigrate the active-duty service of men like Kerry and Cleland, who were wounded in the service of their country, while celebrating the erratic part-time service of Dubya

---------------------------------

Ground Control to Major Tom...........

Posted by: Matthew Ryan at February 19, 2004 09:22 AM | PERMALINK

"I'm interested in hearing whether Matt Young marched with Hanoi Jane."

I smoked dope, got laid, avoided the draft, smoked some more dope, and said to anyone who listened:

I these stupid liberals can go off to a nonsense war to kill folks who never bothered us, while paying off the left with welfare goodies, then I will never support a liberal again.

Then, Calpundit comes along, just when I was willing to support a liberal in a split government. Calpundit brings up the whole nonsense that liberals created in 1964, and Calpundit says Vietnam was a good thing, and I am thinking to myself, maybe liberals never learn.

Posted by: Matt Young at February 19, 2004 09:24 AM | PERMALINK

Matt -

yup - you smoked dope and got laid -

just like your heee-row george w -

sounds like you should be running against him in the republican primary - which candidate got higher???

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 09:28 AM | PERMALINK

You are still left with anecdotal testimony from various persons concerning the president's attendance in Ala. How would he have been paid for duty if some record of his attendance had been made? The claims of him not showing up in a "pilots" bar forget the fact he was in Ala. to work on a political campaign. Just maybe, he was with others involved in that endeavor, instead of drinking with pilots he didn't know and wouldn't be flying with. My understanding is they flew
F-4's in Ala., something he was not trained on. Gen. Turnipseed siad there wasn't enough cockpits to have all of his pilots train in. When Bush returned to Texas, he would have had to undergo further active duty training to update on an aircraft that was going obsolete. Combined with the number of current active duty pilots coming home, would there have been a need to upgrade his training if he couldn't fly due to the lack of jets available?

I honor any man or woman who served, wounded or not. What I do not honor is there politcal actions post service when I think they are bad for this country.
Sen. Kerry accused hundreds of military personnel of atrocities in Vietnam. Can any of you vets confirm his accusatons? They palyed tapes of his congressional testimony to our prisoners in Hanoi. Is that aid and comfort to the enemy? He wants the U.N. to regulate the deploment of our military around the world. He's for the Gulf wars. He's against the Gulf Wars. He's for the environment. He's for drilling in ANWAR (sp?), this according to Hoffa on Hardball. The Sen. spins in the wind like a kite without a tail.

Posted by: Meatss at February 19, 2004 09:35 AM | PERMALINK

I wonder again what it would take to convince you that Mr. Bush was in fact AWOL?

------------------------------------

Simple. Prove Bush wasn't there - becuase someone didn't see him isn't proof.

It's an impossible hurdle because it's an impossible to prove charge.

I think everyone has largely made up their minds on this. New evidence is really, imo, just new liars or liars with more detailed lies (to be charitable, maybe they have unconsciously filled in an haziness to 'produce' a memory). The idea that anybody remembers somebody, or is sure that someone wasnt' there, during a ridiculously brief period 30+ years ago strains logic.

Both sides have some basis for their beliefs. Neither side can prove the other side wrong. No end.

Posted by: Matthew Ryan at February 19, 2004 09:38 AM | PERMALINK

Both sides have some basis for their beliefs. Neither side can prove the other side wrong. No end.

Negative! Bush himself could settle this right quick by:

* Releasing ALL his Military Records, as every President since WWII has done.
* Recounting a few stories about serving in Alabama, such as the car he drove to work, the building he worked in, stuff he remembers from the base, etc. Little details, known only to someone who was there.

That would convince me that he was in Alabama. I'm not really concerned about that. I'm more curious as to why he got suspended from flying in the first place.

I blog about this in my new series over at the Daily Screech called "Look Back in ANGR."

Catchy, eh? I'll be here all week.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 09:51 AM | PERMALINK

Folks say this story should be dead and gone. Folks just don't seem to take lying and whitewashing seriously anymore. The attitude seems to be "shrug the shoulders, big deal, don't really matter." I for one am sick of people running for the right to represent me who are scammers. Bush's Vietman-era record and its apparent subsequent cleansing IS relevant. This is about credibility and integrity - ETHICS - the piece of responsible American governance that Bush said he was going to restore to the Presidency. Another lie. Bush's bunch has restored Nixon-style politics to the White House and folks seem to be saying "ah,big deal, stop complainin." Sad, real sad.

Posted by: sylvan at February 19, 2004 09:52 AM | PERMALINK

meatss -

1] i'm a vet - have you never heard of My Lai?? - and no, he did not accuse hundreds - yes there were atrocities in Nam as there were in Iraq, and in Afghanistan, and in Korea, and in WW2

2] U.N.???? are you a black helicopter guy???

3] i'm for and against the Gulf war as are millions of other Americans - but i'm definitely against being lied to by the White House

4] ANWR spin by Hoffa Jr - wait, don't tell me, you mean the head of the only union in America that supported W in the last election???

stop listening to Rush!!!! he is lying to you

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

Oh yeah, Matt, nothing was sexier than a Republican during Vietnam. You musta got laid a lot!

I bet your bowtie-wearing friends scored you some really primo shit, too.

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 19, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

Matt, question:

You undoubtedly label Kerry a hippie commie liberal pinko faggot for protesting the war after he served.

And you also say liberals started the war.

How do you rectify this?

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 19, 2004 09:57 AM | PERMALINK

Chris Lawrence, who's actually from Memphis, has some thoughts on the credibility of the Flyer and Jackson Baker.

Posted by: Crank at February 19, 2004 09:57 AM | PERMALINK

FUBAR: "After the helicopter landed and the wounded were unloaded I stepped off last and was confronted by a medic who shouted: “Where are you hit?” I shouted in reply: “I’m not wounded, I’m going home.” As if he didn’t believe me he patted down my body and shouted: “Are you sure?” At last satisfied he let me pull away."

Harrowing story. Thanks.

Stan:

"You've joined the tinhat land occupied by democrat.com, buzzflash and the like. Congrats.

BTW, there's no know cure for your strain of swamp fever..."

You'd better leave before you catch it, then.

Posted by: Emma Anne at February 19, 2004 10:03 AM | PERMALINK

Excuse me Al-but, the so-called cherry-picking here has not caused 500+ American and untold innocent Iraqui lives.

Posted by: JG at February 19, 2004 10:10 AM | PERMALINK

Monkey :

"This is the situation. The US AND BRITAIN were fully supportive of the French war in IndoChina, to try and reassert colonial control over Vietnam. That's the truth, and nothing but the truth.

Trying to blame Vietnam on "liberals" is just pure idiocy, and willful idiocy, since a few seconds with Google and give you the straight dope."


At the end of WW2 France was decidedly leaning left toward communism, US and UK support for the return of France's colonial interests in SE Asia was the price of keeping France a democracy by supporting DeGaul. This was the Realpolitic of the times and what got the Vietnam ball rolling.

This was despite the fact that Uncle Ho had been a US ally during the war against the Japanese and despite the fact that US policy as a rule did NOT support returning territories liberated from the Japanese to their pre-war colonial masters.

This was not the only example of realpolotic to emerge from WW2 that still haunt us today, but it serves as a good example of what became the modus-operandi throughout the cold war.

Just for completness you understand, let's bury the dirtbag.

Regards

Posted by: postit at February 19, 2004 10:13 AM | PERMALINK

"I wonder how many grenade accidents Bush's TANG unit had?"

Grenade accidents happen in basic training units all the time. Fighter aircraft crash on a regular basis as well. Yes, even ANG pilots die in training accidents.

Cleland earned his silver star and his purple heart, but he lost his limbs in an accident, not in combat, not in the face of the enemy. It isn't denigrating Cleland to state the truth.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

So, Kevin, what level of evidence will you accept to finally "stick a fork" in this issue?

Apparently a single statement from one of the supposed participants in the Kerry flap was more than enough to satisfy you.

But now that I think of it, you never actually said you were objective on this site, did you?

Posted by: tbrosz at February 19, 2004 10:17 AM | PERMALINK

O.K., I'll type this really slowly so the low IQ kids like Matt and meatss can understand this.

1. The documents that Bush release showed him absent for a period of six months without any any order allowing him to leave his duty as a pilot.

Absent for six months
With
Out
Leave, official orders allowing him to do so.

2. He was specifically order to take a physical in order to maintain his status as a pilot. Instead he skipped to Alabama to participate in a political campaign. He was suspended from flying as punishment because of this. His own release of documents confirms this.

Absent, from a direct order to get a physical exam
With
Out
Leave, official permission to leave base and participate in a political campaign in Alabama.

2. He is also guilty of dereliction of duty because of this behavior. Air Force, and Reserve, pilots are obligated to maintain there status as a pilot. That includes getting annual physicals, which he acknowledges he skipped without official permission, and to attend training related activities such as presentations given by other pilots. The fact that no other pilot at Alabama unit can varify that he did attend such presentations is more evidence, besides skipping the physical, that he is guilty of dereliction of duty.

Q. Fucking E. D.

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus at February 19, 2004 10:17 AM | PERMALINK

Also, if Geo W resigned effective 10/1/73, why was he given a full year of gratuitous points for the year 5/73 to 5/74?

he wasn't. In fact, Air National Guard HQ in Colorado changed his status to "inactive" effective, 9/15/03, and according to the document that Bush CLAIMS prove (AF-526 for 73-74) that he had a good year, Bush only received 5 of the 15 "gratuitous" points, and only had 40 total points for the year.

His first transfer to a paper unit in Alabama was rejected in May, but Bush had already moved to Montgomery.

this is wrong. Bush recieved permission from both Texas and Alabama in May to do his service with the 9921st in Alabama. It was not until July (the 31st, IIRC) that ANG HQ in Colorado rejected that service. The fact is that Bush THOUGHT he could serve with the 9921st in Alabama for two months--but the commander of THAT unit said that Bush never showed up there either.

Seriously Mr. Drum, before you posted your bit about how the math doesn't add up, did you bother to check? A reservist CANNOT complete the minimum required drills and annual training and still get 15 points. The 15 points is MANDATORY for a good year.

this does rather beg the question of what a "good year" is, now doesn't it? Is it 50 points before "membership points" are given awarded? It should also be noted that regulations have changed since 1972....

but since you are an expert, perhaps you can tell us what TANG 36-05 meant back in 1972-73.

i Given that his commitment was going to be up in '73, if he was not going to extend, then he should not have kept flying

Bush's commitment was not up until May 1974. He stopped flying completely more than two years prior to that. And TANG DID need pilots when Bush got back from Texas. In October 1972, TANG was given an additional assignment--patrolling our borders--and the F-102s that Bush flew were the planes that were used.

Posted by: p.lukasiak at February 19, 2004 10:18 AM | PERMALINK

Cleland earned his silver star and his purple heart, but he lost his limbs in an accident, not in combat, not in the face of the enemy. It isn't denigrating Cleland to state the truth.

Did you not read the story about the "accident"?

"Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army."

Three days later, Cleland went to set up a radio relay on a nearby mountain. He and his signals team were airlifted to the site. While disembarking from the helicopter, Cleland saw a grenade that he thought had fallen from his webbing - the grenade turned out to belong to an inexperienced soldier who had incorrectly set the pin for a hair-trigger detonation - Cleland did not drop it

it is a lie to say that Cleland dropped a grenade getting out of a helicopter -

it is a lie to imply it happened at an "airbase" - it was not an "airbase" - it was a montaintop LZ in the middle of a combat zone surrounded by NVA regulars - ask a vet what the differnce is - i don't have time to educate you

See that? It is a LIE. Stop lying, please.

Why do you feel the need to denigrate a soldier who lost limbs in the service of his country?

You Pathetic Swine.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 10:18 AM | PERMALINK

Who do the trolls all remind me of...

"CUT HIS MIC! CUT HIS FUCKING MIC! GET OUT!"

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 19, 2004 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

If you've noticed how Cleland's loss of limb story has been sexed up recently by the Democrats to promote him to god-like status, here's what the story was before they decided to rewrite history;

"One of the most detailed accounts of Cleland's life was written by Jill Zuckman in a lengthy piece for the Boston Globe Sunday magazine on Aug. 3, 1997:

Finally, the battle at Khe Sanh was over. Cleland, 25 years old, and two members of his team were now ordered to set up a radio relay station at the division assembly area, 15 miles away. The three gathered antennas, radios and a generator and made the 15-minute helicopter trip east. After unloading the equipment, Cleland climbed back into the helicopter for the ride back. But at the last minute, he decided to stay and have a beer with some friends. As the helicopter was lifting off, he shouted to the pilot that he was staying behind and jumped several feet to the ground.

Cleland hunched over to avoid the whirring blades and ran. Turning to face the helicopter, he caught sight of a grenade on the ground where the chopper had perched. It must be mine, he thought, moving toward it. He reached for it with his right arm just as it exploded, slamming him back and irreparably altering his plans for a bright, shining future.

.....

"He told the pilot he was going to stay awhile. Maybe have a few beers with friends. ... Then Cleland looked down and saw a grenade. Where'd that come from? He walked toward it, bent down, and crossed the line between before and after." (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Dec. 5, 1999) "

If you have a problem with Coulter being the person who did the Nexus/Lexus search for you to provide the above, do the search yourself and verify it. It's all public record.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:23 AM | PERMALINK

Meatss,


I was an infantry officer in Vietnam in 1968-69. Early on I witnessed women and children who we had killed when we returned fire we received from a village. Was this an atrocity? To me it was. I can tell you that when I saw what we had done I started crying, yet I quickly instinctively realized I would not survive combat with such feelings, so I never allowed such feeling to surface again during my tour. But I saw and experienced much more than this incident. I saw prisoners being tortured and I complained up the chain of command, but was told not to be concerned with it. With such an attitude by my commander it was not long before I too was torturing prisoners. Such is what war can do to a 20 year old first lieutenant. And there is more, much more, as testified to by many veterans in the early 1970's.

John Kerry never accused Vietnam veterans of atrocities, as you wrongly allege. If you took the time to read his actual testimony rather than the lies spread by neocons about his testimony you would find he was merely restating what the other Vietnam vets had said about what they had seen and/or done in Vietnam.

It has been difficult forgiving myself for my wrongs, but I have come to terms and found peace about those wrongs. I humbly submit that those who continue to believe that we were right to be in Vietnam and believe our war there is a glories part of our history, remain in either a state of denial about their own guilt for (1) their personal wrongs or (2) our "collective" wrongs. Furthermore, they just don't seem to have the character required to search within one's self and admit mistakes. It's just easier to remain deluded that what we did in Vietnam was both right and glorious. Bush is of this same ilk.

What Bush did and continues to do in Iraq is wrong, especially his deception and how he is dividing the country with his behavior. I find especially appalling his behavior and deception surrounding his failure to live up to the very limited commitment he made to the Guard when he was able to pull enough strings to get in Guard. Bush seems wholly incapable of accurate and honest self evaluation and does not appear to have the character necessary to admit when he is wrong.

Posted by: BillyJack at February 19, 2004 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

Monkey, you poor fella. I never said Cleland had dropped him grenade. Your own source points out that the accident happened AFTER the battle.

As I said, he earned his Silver Star and Purple Heart, he earned my respect for his service and sacrific. His loss of limbs, however, was due to an accident, not the enemy, not combat. The sort of accident that can happen to a drill sergeant working basic training at Fort Benning. No more noble, or less so, than an ANG pilot killed in a training mission.

I suggest you end the hysteria.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:29 AM | PERMALINK

meatss:
Do you really believe this stuff? Yes, Kerry claimed atrocities before the Senate Committee, but the problem was, they were all documented. Just this summer, the Toledo Blade had an explosive series on Vietnam atrocities and the participants admitted their culpability. And they are still haunted by it. Vietnam made them monsters, and they still dream about it.

See the tiny for the series. Educate.
http://tinyurl.com/rnxm

I have never heard that Kerry's speech was played to POW's, so it could be true. But it is interesting that Kerry and John McCain are such good friends. But then Sen. McCain wouldn't know anything about VietNam.

Posted by: Crabb at February 19, 2004 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

BillyJack -

Re: " ..... Bush is of this same ilk. "

don't ever slander me and other vets by comparing us to that scumbag g. w. bush!!!!

sorry that you caved in and committed torture - i did not and another 3and a half million Vietnam vets did not - i hope you have surrendered yourself and your story to the Hague - perhaps that will ease your conscience

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

"John Kerry never accused Vietnam veterans of atrocities, as you wrongly allege."

http://www.pbs.org/greatspeeches/timeline/j_kerry_s.html

From Kerry's testimony;

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."

You'll be hearing a great deal more about Kerry's slander of Vietnam vets and the "Winter Soldier Investigation" he was involved in. Wait 'til those then held POW talk about how the Kerry speech was related to them by their captors....

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:36 AM | PERMALINK


Stan, you may not have said Cleland dropped the grenade, but our friend Arlo certainly did -- unless you have some alternate interpretation this statement:

Max Cleland lost his limbs in a grenade ACCIDENT. Not combat. He dropped a grenade getting out of a helicopter...

I think it's denigrating to suggest that Max Cleland would have his limbs but for his own clumsiness.

Do you disagree?

Posted by: Californian at February 19, 2004 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

"You'll be hearing a great deal more about Kerry's slander of Vietnam vets and the "Winter Soldier Investigation" he was involved in."

Guess what? To slander somebody you have to be lying. If Kerry was telling the truth as he knew it, he COULDN'T BE SLANDERING ANYBODY.

Get a dictionary, for God's sake.

Posted by: Ted at February 19, 2004 10:40 AM | PERMALINK

epist asks:
Can someone tell me whether Bush received another performance review after June 1973? Or perhaps point me to the document archive?

Thanks.

To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no. Moreover, this Eric Boehlert article in Salon from today mentions that fact and suggests that it is odd that he did not have an OER for the last five months of his service.

From the Boehlert piece:

The most glaring omission from the stash released by the White House is Bush's 1973-'74 Officer Effectiveness Report. Commanders are required to fill one out for every officer who serves. The last OER on record for Bush was completed on May 2, 1973, and covered the period from May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973. But according to Bush's payroll and retirement records, he was credited for serving 38 days after May 2, 1973, which means he should have been evaluated. Yet his officer rating seems to have simply disappeared.

Unlike Bush's routine Guard pay stubs, which would have shed light on his whereabouts but seem to have also been lost sometime during the last 30 years, OER's are among the most important personnel reports generated inside the Guard. "I've never met a commander in 28 years that didn't take OER's seriously," Burkett told Salon last week. "They review OER's in excruciating detail and probably take them more seriously than pay documents."


Posted by: WyldBill at February 19, 2004 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

As I said, he earned his Silver Star and Purple Heart, he earned my respect for his service and sacrific. His loss of limbs, however, was due to an accident, not the enemy, not combat. The sort of accident that can happen to a drill sergeant working basic training at Fort Benning. No more noble, or less so, than an ANG pilot killed in a training mission.

You're an idiot.

He had just returned from a Combat Mission. I'll bet the guys who went with him on that mission had fully loaded weapons, live ammo, and live grenades. Ergo, Combat Mission, something Bush took great pains to ensure he would never have to go on.

I am thrilled that you keep pushing this vicious slander that Cleland lost his limbs in something other than honorable service to his country.

You show great character in doing so. I'll bet you're quite happy with yourself.

I, however, think you're a pathetic idiot.

Bush: No combat, took great pains to make sure (in his own words) he would not ever have to see combat. You defend this.

Cleland: Served honorably, fought for his country, and, while doing so, lost limbs in a tragic accident while in a combat zone. You denigrate him.

Okay, I got it.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

"I think it's denigrating to suggest that Max Cleland would have his limbs but for his own clumsiness."

No more than I consider it denigrating to point out that Cleland would have his limbs, but for the clumsiness of another soldier. I wouldn't choose to put it either way. What should be clear to all is that it's not denigrating Cleland to cut through the bogus story that's been offered recently about a recon mission and to point out that Cleland didn't lose his limbs while in contact the enemy, he lost them in an accident.

He lost them via the kind of accident ALL service people face, regardless of where they're posted. He's owed a debt of gratitude for his service and respect for the way he's overcome significant adversity, but there's no need to fabricate a myth about what happened. The possibility of serious injury or death by way of an accident is present for service people everywhere. The ANG pilot killed in a training accident in the states, the tank crew member burned or killed in a training accident in Germany, a truck driver killed delivering supplies in Kosovo, the ANG supply clerk killed in her sleep when a SCUD hit her barracks in 1991. They faced the kind of risk Cleland faced when he saw that grenade.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:52 AM | PERMALINK

Here's a piece a lot of you aren't going to like:

---------quote----------
Of the four pilots I spoke to who flew with Bush in the Texas days, Fred Bradley knew him best. They had met before going off to the year-long ordeal of pilot school, and entered the 111th at about the same time. Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn't prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called "Palace Alert." "There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley." All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn't remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.

Joe Glavin, another member of Dubya's squadron said, "There were always a core of the guys who were the "in guys" and [Bush] was in the middle of it...George's difference was that we all knew that his daddy was rich and that he was smarter than the rest of us." Smarter? "I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from." Glavin explained that because their squadron was an active duty squadron, they always had two aircraft — armed and fueled — standing on the taxiway on what is called "plus five" alert. From the time the horn blows, until the time the aircraft was wheels-up on takeoff had to be five minutes or less.

Glavin said, "When we had to sit alerts, there were two pilots, and two crew chiefs that sat out in the alert barn. George was like everybody else, except while George was over in a corner reading somebody's autobiography, the rest of us were watching Hee Haw."

Glavin remembers Bush as a pilot who had learned good judgment, not a Hollywood hot dog. He told me of one night when the two were on alert and were scrambled to run a practice intercept over the Gulf of Mexico. Bush went out long and high, and turned back at supersonic speed. Glavin also went supersonic and then his radio failed. At that point, the two F-102s were approaching each other at a combined speed of about 1,800 miles an hour. At 20 miles — about 45 seconds before the paths would cross — Bush broke off the intercept. "We went to debrief with the controller and the controller said to George, why'd you break off the intercept? George said something to the effect of '[here] we're coming at each other at 1,800 miles an hour and he doesn't have a radio and you expect me to just sit there?' He said, 'we're not doin' that.'"
------------endquote----------

http://www.nationalreview.com/babbin/babbin200402190855.asp

Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan at February 19, 2004 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

"To slander somebody you have to be lying. If Kerry was telling the truth as he knew it, he COULDN'T BE SLANDERING ANYBODY."

Kerry testified that the crime he spoke of were common happenings with the full knowledge of the chain of command. This included rape, murder, etc.. Kerry either knew this "Investigation" to be a lie, or should have. If you don't think the vast majority of the public and the vets won't recoil from him when they hear the details, you're dreaming.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

Hey-SSG B

In order to clarify what was or wasn't required,I've been trying to get text on "para 2-10 & para 2-29 AFM 35-13" for a while and must admit I'm not very good at this stuff. I had previously tried all of the sites you suggested.

Maybe you can help. Also on "HD TR TexANG Per ANGR 36-05".

I had asked Charlie(Colorado) since he seemed up on this stuff and he made some suggestions about meanings but then I asked for more specifics and he seems to have disappeared. Thanks

Posted by: lookin' at February 19, 2004 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

Californian -

of course Stan disagrees - he and Arlo (and Ann and Rush) tried to imply that Cleland has clay feet - no pun intended, sorry Max :(

old scumbag trick - tell a small, miniscule part of the story - take it out of context - change a few seemingly innocent words (like substituting "airbase" for "combat landing zone" - pretty soon you have a fairly good attempt at character assassination

BTW Arlo - the Silver Star is the 3rd highest combat award in the Army - it can only be awarded for heroism in the face of the enemy - and Cleland himself turned down the Purple Heart since his wounds which happened 3 days after were not directly due to enemy action -

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 10:58 AM | PERMALINK

"I am thrilled that you keep pushing this vicious slander that Cleland lost his limbs in something other than honorable service to his country."

More bogus hysteria. I never, never said anything of the sort. That tinfoil hat must be a tad tight on your head.

Honorable service includes the sort of accident Cleland encountered. It's encountered everywhere service people are. There are plenty of honorable non-combat ways to be killed or injured. Picking up a grenade is just one.

Being killed or wounded by enemy contact isn't the only danger people in uniform face, and there's nothing "dishonorable" about that.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 11:00 AM | PERMALINK


Stan, you're avoiding the question: do you think it denigrates Cleland to suggest, falsely, that his injuries were the result of his own clumsiness?

This is really a yes or no question. Explain afterward if you must, but precede that explanation please with a yes or no.

Posted by: Californian at February 19, 2004 11:05 AM | PERMALINK

"spotted dog"

There's nothing "out of context" to point out that Cleland didn't earn his Silver Star for actions on the day he lost his limbs. I know it suits your purpose to mix the two events, or to howl with indignation when it's pointed out that the two events are completely unrelated. And it certainly doesn’t diminish Max or his sacrifice to acknowledge that it was an accident and not enemy fire.

What seems to bother people busy propping up the mythology of Max losing his limbs while earning a Silver Star is that the accident nature of his loss highlights the fact that such accidents can happen to any service member, anywhere. The ANG pilot killed flying a F102 is every bit as dead, and deserves every bit as much respect as the USN pilot killed while attempting a carrier landing in the Med, or the USAF pilot shot down over Kosovo.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Californian

No.

No more than it is so to point out it was another soldier’s grenade.

Notice, please, that "monkey" started this by quoting me and then attaching to me comments I didn't make. THAT is what I objected to. Your question about what someone else may or may not said is a distraction from that.


As I said, I wouldn't comment on "clumsiness" on Max's part or any other soldier's part. Neither route seems sufficiently respectful of the pain Cleland went through or his sacrifice. OTOH, there's no need to construct a myth of enemy involvement to make his loss "honorable". It was honorable regardless of its accidental nature.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 11:18 AM | PERMALINK

So, the only thing wrong with the original post on Cleland was that it was at a military base? We don't know if it was his own grenade that he dropped or someone else dropped it.

The story illustrates what it clearly was supposed to illustrate: being in the military is dangerous even when not in combat.

Now, as to Bush being "AWOL" for six months, can I cut to the chase and ask this question: If he had VERBAL permission from his commander (or written and its lost as a lot of old papers are lost) then he was OK, wasn't he? If the commander said he should leave a phone number and address where he could be reached, he was OK?

Posted by: Pat at February 19, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

All -

this Stan guy is slick - or maybe i am just too naive - i let him change the thread from Bush's draft avoidance to Ann Coulter's lies -

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

some of these desperate repubs will slander kerry, cleland, and probably clark too because their famous "war leaders" had, in the vietnam era, "other priorities than military service", as cheney arrogantly put it. true, bush flew dangerous airplanes for three years, but did not do an awful lot in the last two lightly documented years. if byron york at NRO is the best they can offer to clear bush of a cavalier attitude toward promised duty, then they are in deep doo-doo.
you will notice that york did not go back to the ben barne's testimony regarding bush's curious route into the guard. kevin is correct to highlight that point in his excellent summary of the outstanding issues in the controversy.

Posted by: mateo at February 19, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Well then, Stan, we appear to have a fundamental disagreement: I believe that it does denigrate a wounded person to falsely suggest that his wounds are his own fault.

There is a difference between an accident in which the victim is in no way responsible for his injuries, and one in which he causes the injuries himself. Both are tragic, but our sympathies tend to lie much more with the blameless victim. This is not an especially difficult concept to grasp, but you're welcome to elide over it if you like.

I suspect, however, that the distinction is not lost on those who continue to spread the falsehood that Cleland caused his own wounds.

Posted by: Californian at February 19, 2004 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Californian -

stay on message like Slick Stan - - he will keep trying to get us off the subject of Bush's cowardice

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

The wingnuts think this issue is dead because it's not on faux news nor cnn.maybe they should do some investigating on their own to actually dipute the story instead of ranting about how kevin is such a bush hater.C'mon get it together!Why should we take the word of a biased minority against at least some evidence of wrong doing.
Let me ask the wingnutters;If the resident was to come on television and tell you that if you jumped in the lake and your lives would be better would you believe that,too??Its the same concept and you buy into someting you have no idea about.Also why is it you visit just this paticular topic?Kevin gave you a tremendous opportunity in the front page to jump all over the "librals"on the econmic policies of the dems.What is it about hyprocy I hate?Let me count the ways.

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

Californian

Nice try. Putting me in the position of defending words I didn't say, and wouldn't use, to side step the fact that there's a myth being constructed about Cleland losing his limbs while earning a Silver Star. It’s an obvious attempt at a distraction, and it won't work.

Cleland picked up a grenade dropped, at least at the time, by a soldier unknown. He thought it was his own. He picked it up. This is what he's said of the incident. If you want to see telling the truth about the situation as denigrating, that's your call. Personally I don't see the circumstances, no matter whose grenade it was, as denigrating Cleland or his exceptional service. What I do find denigrating of the man is that some people find it necessary to invent a myth to make his loss more palatable to them and their political framework.

"spotted dog"

If you can find a "lie" in the articles about Cleland's accident, point them out. Have the courage, go ahead...

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

"The story illustrates what it clearly was supposed to illustrate: being in the military is dangerous even when not in combat."

Exactly, and that's why they (those that want to pretend there's no danger in military life outside combat, and thus Bush as a safe as could be flying an F102) have to create a myth about Cleland's loss of his limbs involving enemy contact.

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

Slick Stan -

Cowardice:

Function: noun

Definition: alarm

Synonyms: abhorrence, agitation, angst, anxiety, apprehensiveness, aversion, awe, bugbear, Bush, chickenheartedness, cold feet, cold sweat, concern, consternation, creeps, despair, discomposure, dismay, disquietude, distress, doubt, dread, faintheartedness, foreboding, fright, funk, horror, jitters, misgiving, nightmare, panic, phobia, presentiment, qualm, recreancy, reverence, revulsion, scare, suspicion, terror, timidity, trembling, tremor, trepidation, unease, uneasiness, worry

Antonyms: boldness, bravery, Cleland, courage, fe
arlessness, Kerry, valor

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

Can't we just say that the president was away? He recalls serving, isn't that enough for you jackals? He was a pilot! He was away, but he was a pilot for cryin' out loud. How about if we just say he was an "away pilot".

Posted by: jim at February 19, 2004 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

The ANG pilot killed flying a F102 is every bit as dead, and deserves every bit as much respect as the USN pilot killed while attempting a carrier landing in the Med, or the USAF pilot shot down over Kosovo.

Not if he joined the Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, he doesn't.

Military service is dangerous, yes. Some of it, like Combat in Vietnam, is much more dangerous than reading magazines in Alabama.

So keep implying that Cleland's mistake was his own clumisness. Despite the facts, despite people who were there stating otherwise.

It shows you for what you are, a pathetic apologist for a man who by his own admission was looking for a way to avoid serving his country honorably.

He joined the guard to avoid Vietnam. That says a lot about his character to me.

It says he didn't want to go to Vietnam. I don't blame him, it was a stupid, pointless war.
It says he didn't want to go to Canada. I don't blame him, since that's dishonorable, in my opinion.
It says he was willing to let others go to Vietnam, but not protest the war.

To me, such a man is a coward. That he is revealed by his own statements (and actions) is enough for me.

Spin it how you like, but Max Cleland is twice the man (sans limbs, even) than George W. Bush will ever be.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

"spotted dog"

Do you find this routine of yours, posting not to the intended person, but instead to others, claiming there are "lies" in a post, but not having the courage to name them, etc. works for you? It's a rather puzzling approach, and from what I've seen, not effective whatsoever....

BTW, this new found (I assume, feel free to prove me wrong) interest in combat courage. Were you struck by it during the presidential elections of 1992 and 1996? Or is it rather something new to you?

Also, I’m curious about applying the term “coward” to someone who volunteered to flight fighter jets. Are you under the impression that that’s a risk-free endeavor? I’m also interested in how you’d characterize the military service of someone who, say, enlisted in the Navy and served at sea, to avoid being an infantryman. A coward?

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Given that you've been unable to factually describe my posts, and continue to assert I've said or inferred things I haven't, I'm not surprised that you continue down your tortured-logic path.

I'm sure that millions of men who joined the NG (even in the more dangerous flying roles) or enlisted in active duty service in areas that didn’t make them ground soldiers in Vietnam find your definition of cowardice less than convincing.

I also suspect your regard for military service in a presidential candidate dates all the way back to when Kerry tossed his hat into the ring. Or are you going to tell me you supported the war heroes that ran for president in 1992 and 1996?

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

I call a person a coward who says the following words:

"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."
Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998

That's from his own mouth.

You be the judge. According to Bush, he joined the Guard to avoid Vietnam.
He viewed it as either joining up or fleeing the draft.
I don't find his willingness to avoid combat in Vietnam particularly courageous. I find it cowardly.

And I'll say that to anyone who did the same thing.

If you joined the National Guard to get out of going to Vietnam...and claimed to have supported the war? I think you're a coward. If you're willing to let other people go and get killed for something you claim to support...? I think that action speaks for itself.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

I think Stan should be out there campaigning for Bush, explaining to the public how W. and Cleland were equally heroic....well, Bush more so because he didn't accidentally blow his limbs off.
That would win a lot of votes---for Kerry.

Posted by: marky at February 19, 2004 12:28 PM | PERMALINK

Slick Stan -

that's right - change the subject - and twist other peoples words - now you are trying to pit veterans against each other because they served in different branches - shame!!!!!!

in 1992 - i voted for a real hero (who by the way was a fighter pilot - plane shot down by the enemy - and in the Navy) - unfortunately he lost the election because you and Rush called him a WIMP on taxes and a large group of ultra-conservative Republican voters stayed home - amazing, you guys called the hero a Wimp and you call the wimp a hero - disgusting!!!

BTW - Max was not an infantryman and neither was i - but we both proudly served side-by-side with the infantry - and would proudly serve at sea or with flying squadrons

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 12:29 PM | PERMALINK

Good one Patrick R. Sullivan!! But you should have quoted the last 3 paragraphs of Jed Babbin's article in the National Review. The story was almost believable (almost because a lot of it was, "..he told me..") But then,the Hanoi Jane stuff made ME want to throw up.

Oh yeah, and for Al: I shouldn't have included those innocent Iraqi lives. Everyone knows they don't have as much value as American lives.

Posted by: JG at February 19, 2004 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

This has gotten to the point of ridiculesness!
WHy do you think this country ie this forum is so divided?I submit that divisiveness comes from the top.Its no accident that this kind of distain is promoted either.A divided population is easier to control than one that is united in idiology.We can NEVER have any kind of unity while our government continues to divide.The issues we face have come to be the reason we cannot face down the problems must overcome.These issues have no place in the race to solve our common problems.Viet-Nam is long since in our past yet still our leaders shove this in our faces.And yes I say our government and not the journalilsts that write over them.It is our government for the fact that what has been done in OUR names is done illegally and without thought as to what our opinions are,therefore we are faced with following our party lines to keep our beliefs common to them.This following is what our govenment leaders hope and prey upon.
What makes us so strong in our beliefs that our "party" is the right party?This debate we follow now AWOL not AWOL is only an issue,its not the problem.Its the divisiveness thats the problem.Untill we become closer to one mind we will not solve what ails us.

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 12:37 PM | PERMALINK

You know, what's really sad is that next February,
after Bush has left office and is looking to make a few bucks from giving endorsements, this AWOL flap will hurt his chances to be a Viagra spokesman like war-hero Bob Dole.

Posted by: marky at February 19, 2004 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

Terrorism --- 1
Freedom ----- 0

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

Its the divisiveness thats the problem.Untill we become closer to one mind we will not solve what ails us.

The thought of a single party with massive support scares the crap out of me.

Totalitarianism lies that way. Look at Germany. They had one party with massive support.

People do ugly things when they can get away with them. I would MUCH rather have a closely divided country, quite frankly. Less chance for ideolouges to wreck things.

Posted by: Monkey at February 19, 2004 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

smalfish -

the divisiveness is deliberately fostered - i'm willing to turn the other cheek if Stan and Rush and O'Reilly are -

besides - it has nothing to do with "party" - i voted Republican in the past and may again in the future

it has to do with "character"

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

I too have voted republican many times and I have voted democrat many times.And I have voted libeterian a few times.The point is I,like those like me,are not attached to any one party but to ideals.For me those Ideals are not those that divide but incorporate all.

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

smalfish -

my exact sentiments -

see if you can recruit Stan

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

I have voted REpublican before. For me, even more than character, competence is the issue.
Let's end the clown show in November.

Posted by: marky at February 19, 2004 12:55 PM | PERMALINK

Marky -

i'm with you -

but don't think it is going to be easy -

these guys play mean and dirty - they have $200 million in campaign funds plus probably 10 times that waiting in the weeds from their political allies

the smears and slandering will start big-time after the nominations - they will make Stan seem like an amateur

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 01:01 PM | PERMALINK

"spotted dog"

I have no ideas what drugs you might be into that might explain away the 1992 election as you have. I wish you luck with them. IIRC, Bush I was pounded on "no new taxes" after he (foolishly) decided to reach a compromise with House and Senate Democrats on tax hikes linked to spending cuts. Not only did he not get the cuts they promised, the Democrats ran against him on the tax hikes. Then there was this wack-job guy named Perot....

You didn't offer an explanation of the 1996 election (and I assume your vote against a war hero) but it's just as well since I'm sure the conspiracy theory would be just as convoluted.

I’m betting your personal military history is as bogus as your story about Cleland’s accident.

"marky"

There isn't anything about Kerry (aside, perhaps, from his ability to marry well, repeatedly) that strikes of character or competence. In fact, if anything, his Senate voting record suggests the very opposite.

"smalfish"

Can anyone translate your posts to English?

Posted by: Stan at February 19, 2004 01:06 PM | PERMALINK

Let's not spend any more energy on this.

Besides Calhoun, there're two other members of Alabamba Guards who remember Bush showing up: Master Sgt. James Copeland and Joe Lefevers.

The son of a doctor who worked on the base, James Anderson, has also come forward to say that his dad examined Bush:

A medical doctor's son told the Montgomery Advertiser newspaper that his father, James Anderson, gave the president a physical in 1972 after Calhoun brought Mr. Bush to the office.

As much I'd like to get to bottom of this case, I think we won't be able to clarify it any further.

Four people say they saw him on base. Others say they didn't. Without any more evidence, we'd have to concede that what we know so far is consistent with his having reported for his duty in Alabama.

Sure, there're doubts about when he showed up and what he did. But you're likely to have those kind of doubts about most things that happened more than thirty years ago. It's doubtful that we're going to get any more breakthroughs on this one.

Posted by: Mike at February 19, 2004 01:07 PM | PERMALINK

Poker: "It isn't like riding a bicycle."

Really? Geez, guess I missed that memo in the almost 4000 hours I spent flying fighters. Thanks for clearing that up. Give yer head a shake, man.

Posted by: BobDawg at February 19, 2004 01:08 PM | PERMALINK

I've got some english.Why do you believe the presidents lies are good for us?????????????

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINK

Spotted Dog,

First you accuse me of comparing you to Bush, which was not the case.

My reference to “Bush is of this same ilk.” referred to the fact that he is incapable of honest self evaluation as well as admitting mistakes and that this is one of his character flaws. I believe you misunderstood what my point. There was no comparison made, nor one intended, between Bush and real veterans, as my dislike for Bush is probably equal to yours.

Second, you accuse me of caving in and committing torture, when I was merely sharing one of the effects being in combat had on me.

Assuming you were a combat vet, I am happy for you that you never had to experience what I experienced. But my experience is similar to hundreds of combat vets with whom I have spoken and counseled (and probably thousands with whom I have not spoken) concerning things they did in Vietnam, about which they have carried guilt for too many years. And from everything I have read, my experience (or ones similar) was not an uncommon one for combat vets. I recall a line, which rings quite true, from Philip Caputo’s book (or the possibly the movie) that went something like this: There is nothing more cruel than an 18 year old American boy.

The tenor of your post seems to reflect that you would like me to still feel “guilty,” but I don’t and my conscience needs no further easing. War has caused many combat vets to behave in ways which shamed us and caused us to feel great guilt, which evidently seems beyond your understanding. But should we continue to be haunted by that guilt? I don’t thinks so. I would hope that no other combat vet who reads your post believes that he must continue to heap guilt and recrimination upon himself for what happened to him in Vietnam.

It seems odd that a fellow combat vet would seemingly resort to laying a guilt trip on another combat vet. My initial inclination is to be angry at you and attack you back. but where does that get either of us? Nowhere. It’s okay if you’re angry with me, or if you’re not. Maybe I misread the tone and tenor of your post, just as you misread mine.

When I get angry (and I get especially angry at Bush and other chickenhawks and neocons) I have to call to mind, as quickly as I can, a spiritual axiom which holds that when I am angry at anyone or anything, it is always because I see in that person or thing something I don’t like about myself. And when I call that spiritual axiom to mind, I am gently guided away from more anger and I begin realize that whatever I believe is the source of my anger is actually my teacher. Thus, it is through my anger I am able to discover, and then release, another sliver of guilt in me. So, thank you for your post and I wish you peace and happiness.

Posted by: BillyJack at February 19, 2004 01:14 PM | PERMALINK

The world as we know in is made better by far by the benefits of science.Who can dispute this?I dare you!
This president has continually denied science to tell truths that have an impact in our everyday lives.How is it that hiding science is a good thing??How can we live in a world where we have the wool pulled over our eyes ALL THE TIME?
This issue of awol is pertinant in the fact that this president DOES hoodwink the American public not just on AWOL but on all important issues.
Deny it and die a slow death from polution and disease.

Posted by: smalfish at February 19, 2004 01:33 PM | PERMALINK

Stan --

I put no words into your mouth. You may not be especially comfortable with the position you've taken -- that it unequivocally is not denigrating to falsely suggest that Cleland caused his own injuries -- but that's your position. No one put you there but yourself.

You are, however, welcome to change it if you like. Let me suggest a more reasonable position: that it is denigrating to make such a false claim.

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that men such as Max Cleland and John Kerry, who served in combat in the service of their nation, are heroes. It does not denigrate others to acknowledge that fact. Certainly George Bush could have chosen to go to Vietnam, rather than to remain at home. His decision, and his behavior after making it, speak for themselves. There is always the possibility that some people may view John Kerry's service as being more praiseworthy than George Bush's, but that's just a consequence of the decisions the two men made long ago. What it reveals about their inner moral character is, of course, open to interpretation.

I suspect our interpretations might differ.

Posted by: Californian at February 19, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

BillyJack -

i'm sorry - from your earlier post i thought you said "With such an attitude by my commander it was not long before I too was torturing prisoners."

if that was just your way of providing a metaphor for the war, then you have my apologies for the reference to the Hague

i guess Slick Stan has accomplished his objective to divide and conquer -

i am not trying to lay a guilt trip on you or anybody else - my conscience is clean along with millions of others who served there - i mistakenly thought you were trying to lay a guilt trip on the rest of us - i'm proud of my service in Nam and hope you are too

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 02:29 PM | PERMALINK

If Bush was going to continue to fly, he would have to be trained in the new fighter, re-qualify, etc.

Given that his commitment was going to be up in '73, if he was not going to extend, then he should not have kept flying.

His unit in Texas kept flying the F-102 through 1974. There was no need for him to be retrained. He just needed to show up.

And since when is it up to a first lieutenant in a flying squadron who still has a couple of years left on his tour of duty to decide one day that he just doesn't want to fly any more?

Only in Bush-land.

Posted by: Basharov at February 19, 2004 03:31 PM | PERMALINK

Spotted Dog,

When I first saw the torture of prisoners and was outraged by it, I reported it to my immediate commander he blew it off, thus leaving me with more than just an impression that such behavior was condoned, but that it was encouraged, if not expected. I was 20 at the time. I soon saw first hand the atrocities of the VC (which excuses nothing), experienced the frustration of suffering casualties from being sniped at and from booby traps, being ambushed, and seldom seeing the enemy, taking fire from supposedly friendly villages, and upon searching those villages finding a population who was caught between two forces, both of whom said they were saving them from the other, but who in actuality made their lives miserable. And without a conscious decision, I found myself torturing prisoners. Had my commander been supportive of my initial outrage for the same acts, or had I been older and wiser, maybe I would not have done it; but I did and it was wrong.

I joined the Army and volunteered for infantry duty in Vietnam because I believed what the government was telling me. My father and my uncles fought for America and I felt it was my duty to do the same. I went in the Army at 18, was a second lieutenant by 19 and a first lieutenant in Vietnam at 20 and a Captain by 21. I went to Vietnam young and inexperienced and came home (after being wounded and medivaced) 21 going on 40 and well experienced in war and killing. And I am proud of the job I did. While I am not proud of everything I did in Vietnam, I am proud of serving my country there and doing the best I could; and I am proud of all of the other veterans, whether they were in country or not.

Notwithstanding the pride I felt and feel for my service in Vietnam, I came to believe that our government was wrong in getting the country involved in the war in Vietnam. And I acted accordingly by thereafter opposing the war, and I am proud of that as well. I am proud of other veterans, like John Kerry, who took the same path. For those Vietnam vets who still believe in the rightness of the war, I guess we can just agree to disagree, but nonetheless I remain proud of their efforts as well. Finally, I also believe we lost the war in Vietnam; notwithstanding the argument that we never lost a major battle. It simply was an unwinnable war. We won in Iraq, but the question remains, what have we won and at what cost?

Posted by: BillyJack at February 19, 2004 03:35 PM | PERMALINK

Basharov - you are my new hero

Billy Jack - you are my hero too - for the same reason Kerry is (both for serving and later opposing) - but if you tortured prisoners then i believe you need counseling or jail-time and should not be counseling others - regardless of your age at the time or regardless of what your superior officer did or didn't do

end-of-thread for me
there is serious Bush-bashing to do

Posted by: spotted dog at February 19, 2004 04:48 PM | PERMALINK

Orcinus has another good post on this subject---
dneiwert.blogspot.com

Posted by: marky at February 19, 2004 07:18 PM | PERMALINK

Bush's guard service isn't a surprise. That he didn't particularly want to go to Vietnam indicates a degree of common sense that I don't fault him for. That he seems to have been placed in the Air National Guard ahead of people with better academic credentials almost certainly owes a lot to political influence, but that was very much the way the game was played--especially in Texas in the sixties. Nothing remarkable there.

Where there is a question to be asked is, why did he fail to take the physical to certify that he was still ready to be a pilot? By taking that active inaction, Bush invalidated the implied contract entered into when he began pilot training. In exchange for learning to fly fighters he was supposed to continue flying them, both to improve his skills and to assist in developing the flight skills of his fellow pilots. The Air National Guard, and the Air Force, can get file clerks and manual readers easily. (Unless he was trying to get recategorized as a Safety Officer, though, it's hard to see how rading manuals could have counted toward service fulfillment, giving Calhoun the benefit of the doubt.) Good pilots, and Bush was reported to be a very good pilot, are far harder to come by.

He didn't shoot himself in the foot, but he might as well have. Without his flight certification he turned himself into a wing-wearing REMF--and didn't show up to perform even nonflying duties for several months. He has never said why. Did he suddenly become scared of flying? Did his blood contain chemical traces that would have led to bad consequences? Did he have a series of really hot dates, for several months? The only guy who seems to know the answer is sitting in Washington, attended by the man who carries the "football," and we all hope that he won't suddenly develop a new fear of flying.

Just tossing in one old fart's opinion, and the question he'd like to hear answered.

Posted by: Elric at February 20, 2004 07:11 AM | PERMALINK

Boys, this story is over. Here's a WaPo story from Nov 3, 2000:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4291-2000Nov2¬Found=true

--------quote---------
Two high-profile surrogates for Vice President Gore, in an 11th-hour attempt to exploit a dormant issue, yesterday castigated George W. Bush over allegations that he did not fulfill some of his National Guard duties in the 1970s.
[snip]

Bush had been notified that he needed to take his annual flying physical by his 26th birthday in July 1972, but the move to Alabama made that unnecessary. He had been trained to fly F-102 fighter-interceptors, and none of the units in Alabama had those planes. He could have taken the physical to preserve his pilot's status but chose not to do so. "Because he wasn't flying," Bartlett said.

On Aug. 1, 1972, Bush's commander in Houston, Col. Bobby W. Hodges, ordered him grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Some critics say this should have triggered a formal board of inquiry, but Hodges said in an interview that this was unnecessary because Bush accepted the penalty and knew "he couldn't fly again until he takes a physical."

"It happens all the time," Hodges said of the grounding. "That is normal when a Guardsman is out of state or out of the country."
--------endquote-------

Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan at February 20, 2004 07:33 AM | PERMALINK

Shoveling shit doesn't make the problem go away, Patrick. It's already been amply clear that some of Bush's superiors in the TANG were covering up for him, and giving him extra favors. The national headquarters did not agree with this preferential treatment. Nice try, though.

Posted by: Marky at February 20, 2004 07:53 AM | PERMALINK

Marky, why don't you just go ahead and accuse the whole Vast Right Wing Conspiracy for covering up for the president back in '72-'73. It would save a lot of bandwith.

Posted by: Meatss at February 20, 2004 11:38 AM | PERMALINK

Meatss,
The record we now have speaks for itself---and it's not a pretty tale.
You can ignore the evidence if you like, but one officer saying that Bush could skip the physical if he wanted, in contradiction to both written regulations and the testimony of other guardsmen and generals in the guard---that one officer's testimony isn't worth much.

You can use your brain, or you can vote for Bush.
The choice is yours.

Posted by: marky at February 20, 2004 11:51 AM | PERMALINK


For me the issue isn't was he AWOl, it isn't even did he massage the system to avoid Viet-nam. That was then, and 30 years makes one a different person (hell, the right single year, like those people above have discussed, re Viet-nam, or the people who've been to Iraq, can make one a different person).

The issue is about how he is handling the issue now.

One of the principles of AA, et alia, is that one must admit to one's errors. He hasn't addressed it.

Hes every action seems to me designed to keep people from knowing what happened. The stories have changed, he has waffled, made promises (to release all the records) which he has failed to keep.

I might even not care about that, but that he's made such a great deal about his honesty, his character... running against his last opponent on issues of honesty.

That he refused to distance himself from his advocates who engaged in dishonest behaviour (McCain's implied, "black love child," Gore's "lies") did nothing to help him in my estimation.

That he engaged in playing, "What 'is' is games" with claims about Iraq's attempts to gain unranium (after all, the CIA said the information wasn't credible, but we can say the British believe it, and not mention that we don't, so it "truthful," even though misleading), was probably the last straw in the issue of his character for me.

If that wasn't the way the Army made clear to me, and the rest of us, in Kuwait last March that we didn't really have anything to worry about (no that we weren't prepared, but the expectation was that there was no real risk) put him in the realm of the hopelessly dishonest, and so lacking in credibility (the trifecta comments, the playing games (we have more surplus than is predicted, and it will cover more than we've asked for and then saying, "we didn't ever have that money, it was just a projection (never mind that the tax cuts were built to hide the full size by not making them,
"premanent," and ajdusting the timeline to minimize the apparent costs) meant that he was untrustworthy on things at home too.

As it is said, look to how a man handles the little things and you will see how he handles the big things.

So far he's striking out on every front.

TK

Posted by: Terry Karney at February 20, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINK

Thank you Marky, I use my brain And vote for Bush. None of the Dem candidates have presented ANY policies on how they would handle the war on terror. You don't like what Bush has done concerning the war on terror, but a majority of the people do. That is going to be one of the defining questions as people go into the polling booth to vote. Who will do a better job at keeping us safe? The other major factor will be the economy. How well is my pocketbook doing? By most accounts, the economy is improving. Maybe not as fast as you desire, but it is improving. What do you think millions of taxpayers will be thinking in the next three months as the effects of the tax cuts become apparant with lower tax bills and larger refunds? That it was the Dems who cut thier taxes? Or is it the Dems who want to raise their taxes?

Did you see the new Gallup poll today? It showed a large majority of voters DON'T CARE about the National Guard story. The percentage that do is overwelmingly represented on this blog. So unless you can find pictures of the president goofing off while he should have been on duty, I think you're spitting into the wind. You haven't seen any of the Dem candidates talking about it recently. Edwards didn't serve at all and Kerry doesn't want the light shining on his antiwar activities from the same era. The ABB campaign has just one problem. There is very little substance to back up the rage. The voters want some substance. Have a good evening.

Posted by: Meatss at February 20, 2004 07:09 PM | PERMALINK

Let's take a few of the issues Meatss raises.
First, did Bush keep us safe? Of course not.
9/11 happened on his watch, after 8 months of inattention--aggressive inattention, even.
Not only did Bush not want to hear about terrorism before 9/11, he stopped the flyovers with drones in Afghanistan where they were looking for Bin Laden.
The economy? Three years after the recession began, things are picking up somewhat; however, any positive effects are far outweighed by Bush's abysmal record on jobs, as well as the harmful effect of the huge deficits he's running (not due to 9/11---don't even say it. The tax cuts are the single largest cause of the deficit).
Tax cuts? Most americans say they haven't gotten much benefit from them, as you'd know if you did any research. His future tax cuts will be even more heavily top loaded and less noticeable by the average American. By the way, if you don't like taxes, move to Somalia. Even before Bush took office, the US had much lower tax rates than most developed countries; under Bush they have plummeted to levels not seen in 50 years here.
Clinton raised taxes (horror!) and the economy did fabulously. You may like having lower taxes---who doesn't---but lower taxes do not equate to economic prosperity.
Finally, what about the "war on terror"?
Well, all I can say is that after watching Bush bog down a huge percentage of our troops in a country which was no threat at all, terror-wise, and having virtually ignored numerous REAL nuclear threats, from North Korea and Pakistan to the black market in FSU fissile materials, all I can say is that I'd rather have Ronald Reagan as president than Bush---and by that I mean Ronald Reagan as he is today.
Bush is an absolute disaster. No president has ever done as much damage to our country: in the economic realm; in terms of foreign policy and standing; in terms of respect for civil rights; and not least in environmental terms and good stewardship criteria. Vote for Bush, but don't pretend you actually have reasons beyond a shortsighted attention to your own pocketbook via your tax rates. It won't wash.

Posted by: Marky at February 20, 2004 11:34 PM | PERMALINK

Oh please. More damage than Jimmy Carter and 18% interest rates? Do you actually think 5.6% unemployment is the worst in history? If you do you have very high standards.

Do you actually think we would have learned about the source of the nukes in Iran and N. Korea (thanks to CLinton) if Pakistan had not felt the pressure? Do you think Libya would have given up their nuke technology without us having gone into Iraq? Now we know a lot of the technology Pakistan got came from Europe in spite of export controls.
What international standing did we lose? France, Gernmany, and Russia were thumbing their noses at the U.S. and the U.N by selling prohibited items to Iraq. How many people did Saddam buy off trying to keep his power? Hundreds. After the USS Cole bombing, did the few cruise missiles Clinton launched into Afghanistan really deter Osama? Or did it embolden him to proceed with the plans for Sept. 11th? That and the crap in Somalia led him to believe the U.S. was a paper tiger. Our international standing was all ready low, thanks to the missteps of the Clinton administration. At least the president responded forcefully after 9/11 with more than a few missiles and protests to the UN.
Do you agree with Kerry that this is strictly a law enforcement and intelligence affair, not a war? That's why I'm voting for Bush. I don't like Kerry cause he going to get many more people killed.

Posted by: Meatss at February 21, 2004 10:23 AM | PERMALINK

Osama has been found!

Posted by: testing at February 21, 2004 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Meatss, please continue to display your colossal ignorance. Just one point, moron---the real unemployment rate is not 5.6%. That number only counts people that are collecting unemployment benefits, not all people who are out of work.
The fact is, the economy has lost over 2 million jobs under Bush, compared to gaining over 11 million jobs under Clinton. There's no president since Hoover with a record like that.

Posted by: Marky at February 21, 2004 02:02 PM | PERMALINK

You see I disagree with your 2 million jobs lost statistic. There is braod disagreement over which testing method is the more accurate. the employer's survey or the household income survey, which shows a much higher degree of employment. Have you gone out and counted those who are unemployed and not looking for work?
Here in N. Calif., you can't hire anyone for less than $2.00 over the Calif. minimum wage, much less the national minimum wage. Our classifieds here are lengthy with help wanted ads. I haven't seen any reports of vast new numbers of homeless. The 2 million jobs lost is just so much rhetoric in a campaign season. You cannot have economic improvement without jobs being created.
Last point. Many of the job losses you site occurred in the prior administration when a. the dotcom bubble burst and b. the following recession started 10 months before President Bush was inaugurated. Eight months later came the attacks. So the combination of these events foretold job loses. Just not as many as you articulate. If government regulations could be reduced, many more jobs could be created. That's one thing I dislike about the president. We're not making government smaller. But my business has been improving the past 2 years. I hired more employees. Housing construction is booming and we're the fastest growing county in the state and one of the fastest in the country.

Posted by: Meatss at February 21, 2004 05:23 PM | PERMALINK

Meatss---BULLSHIT
There is no vast disagreement about household vs. payroll survey.
Three points:
1) Greenspan says to trust the payroll survey, as do most economists

2) The difference is less than 200,000.

3) There is an illusion that there was a huge gain in the household survey between 2003 and jan. 2004; however, this was due to a change in baseline hypothesis. The BLS report specifically warns NOT to compare the 2003 and 2004 numbers.

I have to think that you just pull numbers and facts out of your ass. Why don't you take a primer in basic economics before you get back in the room.

Posted by: Marky at February 21, 2004 07:18 PM | PERMALINK


Just in the issue of, "You cannot have economic improvement without jobs being created. " and point out that things lie GP can, and do rise, on principles of measurement which allow for non job-increasing factors.

For a manageble paradigm, look at the restructuring of companies to lay off/completley dispose of, "excess jobs," and so show a greater profit.

If I have a machine shop and add have five employees, runing a total of five CNC mills, I can increase production by adding one machine, making one guy the leadman (in charge of doing things like setting up the machines) fire one guy and give each of the remaining guys two machines to run.

I have increased my economic productivity, and decreased the number of jobs.

As for Carter, if you want to blame the previous administration for the present recession, you'll have to be fair and look to the disastrous policies of Nixon (price controls anyone) which allowed the economy to get rediculously out of whack, and led to a greater pendulum swing than might have been otherwise expected.

TK

Posted by: Terry Karney at February 23, 2004 01:19 PM | PERMALINK

We provide a comprehensive list of e-pharmacies to help you get the best Online Levitra Cialis Viagra deals. Cheap Levitra, in all clinical trials, has proven to be extremely successful.Each Levitra pill may work in as quickly as 16 minutes and may work for up to 24 hours, far surpassing the length of Viagra's effects which is an average of 4 hours. Buy Levitra http://www.one-levitra.com http://www.one-cialis.com http://www.one-levitra.com

Posted by: levitra at March 18, 2004 03:14 PM | PERMALINK

Online Tramadol is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.top-tramadol.com!

Posted by: tramadol at March 18, 2004 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

Cheap Propecia http://www.one-propecia.com/ is a new and effective treatment for male pattern baldness. View Online Propecia News. It is a capsule taken by mouth vs. a cream. A net increase in scalp hair count and hair regrowth was seen in over 80% of men for whom it was prescribed. Buy Propecia Now!

Posted by: propecia at March 18, 2004 10:54 PM | PERMALINK

Ultram Generic Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.top-fioricet.com !

Posted by: fioricet at March 19, 2004 02:55 AM | PERMALINK

Online Cialis Levitra Viagra has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003.Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy Cialis through various registered pharmacies. Also try levitra , buy levitra cheap levitra http://www.one-levitra.com/ http://www.one-cialis.com/levitra.htm/ or visit these sites for news and side effects : cheap cialis http://www.one-cialis.com/

Posted by: cialis at March 19, 2004 06:35 AM | PERMALINK

Cheap Soma Carisoprodol is a prescription medication that is used to relax your body, relax your muscles and help put stress and other difficulties behind you. Online Soma is now available online with a prescription. You can obtain a prescription online by answering a short questionnaire about your medical history Buy Soma or visit http://www.top-soma.com.

Posted by: soma at March 20, 2004 05:11 AM | PERMALINK

Phentermine Online and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

Posted by: phentermine at March 20, 2004 05:21 AM | PERMALINK

Do you know the difference between a failed interview and an amazing interview? Do you want to be able to answer even the toughest, meanest, and most low-down interview questions that you could ever be possibly asked? Do you want to go though your interview with confidence? Do you want to feel prepared, impress the interviewer, and win the job interview of your dreams? We provide you with job interview tips, visit http://www.job-interview-questions-tips.com

Posted by: job interview questions at March 20, 2004 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Phentermine Online and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

Posted by: phentermine at April 21, 2004 02:27 AM | PERMALINK

Online Ambien, ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is invaluable for your mental and physical well being. If you suffer from insomnia, you may want to look into cheap Ambien (zolpidem tartrate), the most prescribed sleep medication in the U.S. Buy Ambien Now or visit this site: http://www.i-ambien.com!

Posted by: ambien at April 22, 2004 03:39 AM | PERMALINK

Online Wellbutrin, wellbutrin, wellbutrin XL, wellbutrin SR is prescribed for the treatment of depression, but it is not for everyone. If you take cheap WELLBUTRIN XL, there is a risk of seizure, which is increased in patients with certain medical problems or in patients taking certain medicines. Buy Wellbutrin XL Now or visit this site: http://www.i-wellbutrin.com!

Posted by: wellbutrin at April 22, 2004 03:49 AM | PERMALINK

Phentermine Online, Phentermine and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.x-phentermine.com/, phentermine diet pill, phentermine sale, phentermine free shipping, cheapest phentermine!

Posted by: phentermine at April 22, 2004 06:15 AM | PERMALINK

Cheap Soma Carisoprodol, Soma - Carisoprodol is a prescription medication that is used to relax your body, relax your muscles and help put stress and other difficulties behind you. Online Soma, Cheap Soma is now available online with a prescription. You can obtain a prescription online by answering a short questionnaire about your medical history Buy Soma or visit http://www.one-soma.com.

Posted by: soma at April 22, 2004 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Online Xenical, Xenical is one of the most prescribed treatments for weight loss in the world. cheap Xenical is used with a reduced-calorie diet to help significantly overweight persons lose weight. It also helps to prevent regaining weight previously lost. Orlistat works by blocking some of the fat normally digested by the intestine. Buy Xenical Now or visit this site: http://www.x-xenical.com!

Posted by: xenical at April 22, 2004 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Online Tramadol, Tramadol, Tramadol HCL is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Ultram Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.x-tramadol.com!

Posted by: tramadol at April 22, 2004 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Ultram Generic Fioricet, Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.x-fioricet.com !

Posted by: fioricet at April 22, 2004 01:01 PM | PERMALINK

Online Flexeril, flexerilis used to treat the pain and stiffness of muscle injuries, including strains, sprains and muscle spasms.Buy Flexeril, Cheap Flexeril Now or visit this site: http://www.online-flexeril.com!

Posted by: flexeril at April 23, 2004 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Online Skelaxin, skelaxin, 800 mg skelaxin, 800mg skelaxin,400mg skelaxin is used to treat the pain and stiffness of muscle injuries, including strains, sprains and muscle spasms. Cheap Xenical should not be used if you have ever had an allergic reaction to carisoprodol, meprobramate or tybamate. Buy Xenical Now or visit this site: http://www.x-xenical.com!

Posted by: skelaxin at April 24, 2004 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Viagra, Are you looking for cheap Viagra online? Then you are on the right place. We provide one of the largest databases of online pharmacies on Web to help you buy only the cheap drugs for your problems. online Viagra buy viagra generic viagraVisit this site: http://www.x-viagra.com

Posted by: viagra at April 24, 2004 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Good people strengthen themselves ceaselessly.

Posted by: Perlov George at May 3, 2004 09:04 AM | PERMALINK

Debt Counseling companies currently help over 1 million people to debt consolidation their unsecured loans, bills, and credit card debts into one easy payment, while saving thousands of dollars in unnecessary interest & credit fees. We can help you consolidate r debts with a  consolidation plan  that is just right for you! This free debt consolidation could save you 50% or more in monthly credit card payments. http://www.free-debt-consolidation-free.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 12, 2004 05:39 AM | PERMALINK

Keno, Bingo, Slots, Poker and other all-time favorite games delivered by top-notch software at only trusted and certified casinos. A comprehensive online bingo and unique casino games portal. Select your game with the best bonuses and payouts!  http://www.i-online-bingo.com

Posted by: bingo at May 12, 2004 05:40 AM | PERMALINK

Here is the story: BlackJack originated in French casinos around 1700 where it was called "vingt-et-un" ("twenty-and-one") and has been played in the U.S. since the 1800's. Online BlackJack is named as such because if a player got a Black Jack of Spades and internet black jack an Ace of Spades as the first two cards (Spade being the color jack black of course), the player was additionally remunerated. http://www.888-blackjack.com/

Posted by: blackjack at May 12, 2004 09:00 AM | PERMALINK

Whether you have a rigid poker strategy in mind before you hit the table or whether you play it by ear, having a strong foundation of poker knowledge is important to every player. If you know and understand something about this game (video poker, strip poker, online poker )that your opponent does not, you will play a better game. http://www.888-online-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 12, 2004 02:08 PM | PERMALINK

Do you need urgent cash till pay day? Now? Payday loan online is alot easier faster and less hassle then going to your bank for a personal loan or credit card.Payday on your paycheck, usually ranging from $100 to $500. What is a payday loan? Payday loans are meant to help tie you over when you are short on cash between paychecks. http://www.payday-loan-payday.com

Posted by: payday at May 12, 2004 06:02 PM | PERMALINK

All Online Casino Gambling sites chosen & recommended here at Online Casino have been thoroughly tested by us for fairness, reliability, online casino game play realism, casino payout percentages, game speed, and bonuses. We have tested hundreds of casino sites ourselves in an effort to bring you the very best online casino promotions. The following is a small sampling of internet casino - only the best from Online Casino Rewards. http://www.666-casino.com

Posted by: casino at May 12, 2004 06:02 PM | PERMALINK

Credit, debt and loan are all different words that boil down to the same thing: borrowing money from someone with a promise to pay it back, usually with interest.  Personal loan allow you to borrow a fixed amount and then pay it back according to a fixed schedule. The same is for car loan, home loan, auto loan and college loan.Sometimes a loan will require collateral, which is basically property or assets that you promise to give the lender in the event that you are unable to repay the loan. Often, borrowers use personal online loan to pay for big purchases. http://www.i-loan-online.com

Posted by: loan at May 13, 2004 03:08 AM | PERMALINK

Our best online gambling review pages will surpass all your expectations offering the best online casino sites on the web. Look no further, whether it's online sports betting, progressive poker, free games, flash downloads or fast casino downloads, we have the best online gambling reviews to meet anyone's needs. Looking for online gambling news? you'll find everything in once place including online gambling online tips, reviews and promotions. http://www.666-gambling.com

Posted by: gambling at May 13, 2004 06:36 AM | PERMALINK

We offer online personals ads services for dating singles with many free services such as: anonymous dating email addresses, relationship advice for marriage, dating or singles, personal ads posting, match, and many more free online Dating Singles Personals: Personal ad Services... for all men and women. Our Dating Singles Personals site is more than those matchmaker, marriage, pen pals or photo match personal ads sites; we're much more! Want more than the strictly dating service, online personal ads and matchmaker dating singles sites? Then. http://www.dating-service-dating.com

Posted by: dating at May 13, 2004 07:44 AM | PERMALINK

With today’s low mortgage rates, many people are finding that owning a home is often as affordable as renting.Check home mortgage. If you have the funds for mortgage loan saved up to put together a downpayment as well as cover off various closing costs, then the ability to afford monthly mortgage online, property tax, insurance and utility payments, then home ownership is a great way to build up equity over time.http://www.i-mortgage-online.com

Posted by: mortgage at May 14, 2004 06:02 AM | PERMALINK

phentermine online and adipex is the fastest growing online source for buy phentermine and buy adipex prescription medication that phentermine you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for cheap adipex and cheap phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

Posted by: buy phentermine at May 15, 2004 01:23 PM | PERMALINK

There has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003.cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. Also try levitra best pill, or visit these sites for news buy levitra  and side effects. Try tramadol for pain relief. Please be patient soma best prices. Best scheme is fioricet that go to. Also you can buy cheap propecia for hair loss. Try to loose weight with the best  phentermine pill , the best choice also is adipex pill. Also do not forget to  start your phentermine diet pills.  Please look at your wardrobe at see if youhave a dose of cialis or big feet levitra drug. But many many time ago cialis is best. Dont you think. I reallylike buy cialis because it makes me feelgood.

You can go online to apply for payday loan, you can also try to  get a loan , but best for you will be mortgage application.  Try to get  your free debt consolidation service here! Please advise if you have the money.Try to see if you free credit report is good. I really recommend you startr workinng, because this will improve very much your money and with this i hope you can get much high  free credit report score. That's for sure.

If you do not have them, please try gambling online , you have pretty good chances in this casino Las Vegas , you can try all the games in the casino, but I prefer to play poker and also you can try the best online game blackjack even more go to the board and play bingo too best wishes.

You can try the to contact ne if you want on best  personals dating service sites. It is pretty populat to go chatting in those dating sites.

Posted by: phentermine at May 15, 2004 01:28 PM | PERMALINK

Do you need urgent cash till pay day? Now? Payday loan online is alot easier faster and less hassle then going to your bank for a personal loan or credit card.Payday Loan on your paycheck, usually ranging from $100 to $500. What is a payday loan? Payday loans are meant to help tie you over when you are short on cash between paychecks. http://www.payday-loan-payday.com

Posted by: payday loan at May 26, 2004 12:59 AM | PERMALINK

Dating and picture personal dating ads services for singles looking for love, romance, dating dates pen pals or relationships. Personals for the online dating and singles community. Post Your Free Dating, Singles, Picture Personal ads today. Visit us to chat with singles, look through personals, and read up on all the hilarious and heart-rending tribulations of dating service and romance today. http://www.dating-free-dating.com

Posted by: dating at May 26, 2004 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

They offer a variety of casino great online games, fabulous colorful graphics, music, other familiar
online casino gambling sounds.
http://www.i-live-casino.com

Posted by: casino at May 31, 2004 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.site-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

They offer a variety of casino great online games, fabulous colorful graphics, music, other familiar
online casino gambling sounds.
http://www.i-play.casino.com

Posted by: casino at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

Learn what more home poker players are learning. Low limit casino
video poker is fun,
affordable, and easier than online poker you think.
http://www.444-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.own-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

Learn what more home poker players are learning. Low limit casino
video poker is fun,
affordable, and easier than online poker you think.
http://www.555-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

Learn what more home poker players are learning. Low limit casino
video poker is fun,
affordable, and easier than online poker you think.
http://www.i-free-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.live-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

They offer a variety of casino great online games, fabulous colorful graphics, music, other familiar
online casino gambling sounds.
http://www.nonstop-casino.com

Posted by: casino at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

We are an payday loan lender guide offering access to
payday loan online personal loans, and cash
advance loans over the Internet. http://www.cheap-payday-loan.com

Posted by: payday loan at May 31, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

We are an payday loan lender guide offering access to
payday loan online personal loans, and cash
advance loans over the Internet. http://www.i-payday-loan.com

Posted by: payday loan at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

The worlds best known Internet Casino you bet
black jack online, trust our 24hr live support security, and
the best online black jack casino games on the Internet.
http://www.i-black-jack.com

Posted by: black jack at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.fastest-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

The worlds best known Internet Casino you bet
black jack online, trust our 24hr live support security, and
the best online black jack casino games on the Internet.
http://www.i-play-blackjack.com

Posted by: black jack at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.max-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

We are an payday loan lender guide offering access to
payday loan online personal loans, and cash
advance loans over the Internet. http://www.cheapest-payday-loan.com

Posted by: payday loan at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

The worlds best known Internet Casino you bet
black jack online, trust our 24hr live support security, and
the best online black jack casino games on the Internet.
http://www.blackjack-play-blackjack.com

Posted by: blackjack at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

Credit quality and debt-to-income-ratio affect the
mortgage terms of your loan through your FICO Score. If you have good
mortgage loan credit and your monthly income.
http://www.i-buy-mortgage.com

Posted by: mortgage at May 31, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

Credit quality and debt-to-income-ratio affect the
mortgage terms of your loan through your FICO Score. If you have good
mortgage loan credit and your monthly income.
http://www.i-cheap-mortgage.com

Posted by: mortgage at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Credit quality and debt-to-income-ratio affect the
mortgage terms of your loan through your FICO Score. If you have good
mortgage loan credit and your monthly income.
http://www.site-mortgage.com

Posted by: mortgage at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Whether you are looking for a free satellite TV system from the
Dish Network or direct tv free, you won’t be disappointed with the quality service that
satellite tv each provider accommodates.
http://www.i-free-satellite-tv.com

Posted by: satellite tv at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Credit quality and debt-to-income-ratio affect the
mortgage terms of your loan through your FICO Score. If you have good
mortgage loan credit and your monthly income.
http://www.i-online-mortgage.com

Posted by: mortgage at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Whether you are looking for a free satellite TV system from the
Dish Network or direct tv free, you won’t be disappointed with the quality service that
satellite tv each provider accommodates.
http://www.install-direct-tv.com

Posted by: direct tv at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

But the increased number of online bingo cards was exactly what was needed to make bingo a staple at churches. http://www.i-play-bingo.com

Posted by: bingo at May 31, 2004 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Whether you are looking for a free satellite TV system from the
Dish Network or direct tv free, you won’t be disappointed with the quality service that
satellite tv each provider accommodates.
http://www.i-direct-satellite-tv.com

Posted by: satellite tv at May 31, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Learn what more home poker players are learning. Low limit casino
video poker is fun,
affordable, and easier than online poker you think.
http://www.i-play-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 31, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

But the increased number of online bingo cards was exactly what was needed to make bingo a staple at churches. http://www.i-win-bingo.com

Posted by: bingo at May 31, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Learn what more home poker players are learning. Low limit casino
video poker is fun,
affordable, and easier than online poker you think.
http://www.333-poker.com

Posted by: poker at May 31, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

But the increased number of online bingo cards was exactly what was needed to make bingo a staple at churches. http://www.e-play-bingo.com

Posted by: bingo at May 31, 2004 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

But the increased number of online bingo cards was exactly what was needed to make bingo a staple at churches. http://www.x-bingo.com

Posted by: bingo at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

If you are looking for a debt consolidation loan There is no obligation to the debt consolidation credit counseling, it is just a educational consultation of debt assistance. http://www.inet-debt-consolidation.com

Posted by: debt consolidation at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

This is the online ambien to go there , big surptice men ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is of great dental need for your health. Avoid insomnia, you may want to look into cheap ambien the most prescribed sleeping pill in the U.S today . Ya is true buy ambien But visit this site for more info: http://www.top-ambien.com

Posted by: ambien at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

a href='http://www.i-buy-ambien.com'>online ambien to go there , yes that is true ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is invaluable for your mental and physical well being. If you suffer from insomnia, you may want to look into cheap ambien top (zolpidem tartrate), the most prescribed sleeping pill in the U.S. Tha is true buy ambien Now or visit this site: http://www.i-buy-ambien.com

Posted by: buy ambien at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

Got here Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.x-fioricet.com

Posted by: fioricet at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

Go there guys Cheap Soma Carisoprodol is a prescription medication that is used to relax your body, relax your muscles soma and help put stress and other difficulties behind you. Online Soma is now available online with a prescription. You can obtain a prescription online by answering a short questionnaire about your medical history Buy Soma or visit http://www.top-soma.com

Posted by: soma at May 31, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

Best deal everywhere Soma - Carisoprodol is a prescription medication that is used to relax your body, relax your muscles and help put stress and other difficulties behind you. Online Soma, to do Cheap Soma is now available online with a prescription. You can obtain a prescription online by answering a short questionnaire about your medical history Buy Soma or visit http://www.one-soma.com

Posted by: soma at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Best before buy Online Ambien, yeaj hthe buy ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is invaluable for your mental and physical well being. If you suffer from insomnia, you may want to look into cheap Ambien (zolpidem tartrate), the most prescribed sleep medication in the U.S. Buy Ambien Now or visit this site: http://www.i-ambien.com

Posted by: ambien at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

They offer a variety of affiliate software great online games, fabulous colorful graphics, music, other familiar
affiliate program software gambling sounds.

Posted by: affiliate software at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Best Cialis and Online Cialis has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003. Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. cheap cialis  http://www.top-cialis.com/

Posted by: cialis at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Best Cialis and Online Cialis has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003. Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. cheap cialis  http://www.new-cialis.com/

Posted by: cialis at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Best Cialis and Online Cialis has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003. Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. cheap cialis  http://www.hot-cialis.com/

Posted by: cialis at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

We provide a comprehensive list of e-pharmacies to help you get the best Levitra that is true Cialis Viagra deals. Cheap Levitra, in all clinical trials, has proven to be extremely successful.Each Levitra pill may work in as quickly as 16 minutes and may work for up to 24 hours, far surpassing the length of Viagra's effects which is an average of 4 hours. Buy Levitra  http://www.hot-levitra.com

Posted by: levitra at May 31, 2004 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Bet the dumb out oif up online black jack thus we can get rid of it.

Posted by: online blackjack at June 7, 2004 06:38 AM | PERMALINK

Fuck you all, fuck my siter and all online poker this is the case.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:38 AM | PERMALINK

Great Poker texas holdem poker thar is trye http://texas-holdem.666-casino.com/texas-holdem.htm

Posted by: texas holdem at June 7, 2004 06:38 AM | PERMALINK

Whether you have a rigid online poker strategy in mind before you hit the table or whether you play it.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:38 AM | PERMALINK

Gambling sites chosen recommended here at Online Casino have been thoroughly tested by us for fairness, reliability!

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:38 AM | PERMALINK

A comprehensive online bingo and unique casino games portal.

Posted by: online bingo at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

God the fuck online casino are you sure.

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

Great Blog online poker
this is the true that is right http://poker.666-casino.com/poker.htm

Posted by: poker at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

Great Blog. I love it
casino
best bonuses
http://casino.666-casino.com/casino.htm

Posted by: casino at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

Why you are not so bad
online casino trust me.

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

The poker I have ever played
online texas hold em
that is the beginning!
http://www.online-texas-hold-em.us

Posted by: online texas hold em at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

God damn it, you are such an online casino
then ever 'http://online-casino.666-casino.com/online-casino.htm

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

Ohhh this is strange fucker online casino gambling sounds.
http://www.i-play-casino.com

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

Go there and try this
online casino highly recommeded by me.

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

Drugs are wrong opportunity, be aware of that
texas hold em play the casino here! http://www.i-texas-hold-em.com

Posted by: texas hold em at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

Try this fun men online poker you think.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

news all aroung the world online poker try it for free that right.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK


Best regards from the casino played
texas holdem be all the way near!

Posted by: texas holdem at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

They offer a variety of
online casino gambling sounds.

Posted by: online casino at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

But the increased number of online bingo cards was exactly what was needed to make.

Posted by: online bingo at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

Learn this from me, never online poker play it you think.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:40 AM | PERMALINK

To do this go there and see of that
online texas hold em do allow
this! http://www.online-texas-hold-em.net

Posted by: online texas hold em at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Try this and feel it online bingo not to be missed.

Posted by: online bingo at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Back to track online blackjack casino games on the Internet.

Posted by: online black jack at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Play at the best dumb online bingo not hte rest.

Posted by: online bingo at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Surely not a chance for you but online poker nevertheless try this.

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Great Poker Rooms I suggest too online texas holdem poker thar is trye http://online-texas-holdem.666-casino.com/online-texas-holdem.htm

Posted by: online texas holdem at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

Got here and seen this right  online poker
but do not go there
http://online-poker.666-casino.com/online-poker.htm

Posted by: online poker at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

By the way ever played the casino played
texas holdem poker nice happenings all the ewya!
http://www.texasholdem-poker.us

Posted by: texas holdem at June 7, 2004 06:41 AM | PERMALINK

why play it as you can online bingo feel free with this opportunity.

Posted by: online bingo at June 7, 2004 06:42 AM | PERMALINK

Online, trust our 24hr live support security, and
the best online black jack casino games on the Internet.

Posted by: online black jack at June 7, 2004 06:42 AM | PERMALINK

Good site debt consolidation loan that is right. The http://www.all-debt-consolidation.org

Posted by: debt consolidation at June 7, 2004 06:42 AM | PERMALINK

We are as God made us, and often a great deal worse.

Posted by: Primack Gretchen at June 30, 2004 10:36 AM | PERMALINK

We provide a comprehensive list of e-pharmacies to help you get the best Levitra that is true Cialis Viagra deals. Cheap Levitra, in all clinical trials, has proven to be extremely successful.Each Levitra pill may work in as quickly as 16 minutes and may work for up to 24 hours, far surpassing the length of Viagra's effects which is an average of 4 hours. Buy Levitra http://www.one-levitra.com http://www.one-cialis.com http://www.one-levitra.com

Posted by: levitra at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry to keep you  Tramadol, but there Tramadol HCL is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Ultram Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.x-tramadol.com

Posted by: tramadol at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

Best buy ultram fioricet reversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 and thus online fioricet yeah, because this is the true Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others fioricet explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.fioricet-online-fioricet.com

Posted by: buy fioricet at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

That is the case tramadol is one of the best pain ever treatments the world. Most think and use ave taken cheap tramadol is best to relieve all kind of buy tramadol pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By reducing the amount of pain signals that travel throughout the body, tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! buy tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.i-buy-tramadol.com

Posted by: buy tramadol at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

Online Tramadol is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.top-tramadol.com

Posted by: tramadol at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

Ultram Generic Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability fioricet of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.top-fioricet.com

Posted by: fioricet at July 1, 2004 01:38 PM | PERMALINK

Best Cialis and Online Cialis has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003. Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. cheap cialis Also try levitra , buy levitra cheap levitra http://www.one-levitra.com/ http://www.one-cialis.com/levitra.htm or visit these sites for news and side effects :  http://www.one-cialis.com/

Posted by: cialis at July 1, 2004 01:39 PM | PERMALINK

Really interesting forum

Posted by: Buy Codeine Online at July 21, 2004 07:01 PM | PERMALINK

Very much enjoyed reading the posts

Posted by: Buy Darvon Online at July 22, 2004 04:37 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/animalsex/index.html animalsex index html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/celeberties-pictures-de-celebs-fotos-naughty-butt-nude-celebrates-celebirty-asian-sucking.html celeberties pictures de celebs fotos naughty butt nude celebrates celebirty asian sucking html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/animalsex/index.html animalsex index html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/kara-adult-cunt-playground-creamy-pics.html kara adult cunt playground creamy pics html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/site-pictures-hot-sex-porno-video.html site pictures hot sex porno video html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/sexe-gros-pornographie-sexy-photo-gallery-tres-seins.html sexe gros pornographie sexy photo gallery tres seins html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/sex-sexe-oral-nichons-maso-hardcore-penetration-handjobs-jeunes-photo-libre-sperme-asiatiques-d-hommes-salope-abruti-teen-europ-poitrine-lesbienne-lesbien-de.html sex sexe oral nichons maso hardcore penetration handjobs jeunes photo libre sperme asiatiques d hommes salope abruti teen europ poitrine lesbienne lesbien de html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/pussy-camera-indian-realaudio-cat-mpg-up-shows-snakefuck-feet-vivo-african.html pussy camera indian realaudio cat mpg up shows snakefuck feet vivo african html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/xxx-books-catalog-lesbian-desire-impotence-remedy.html xxx books catalog lesbian desire impotence remedy html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/pic-kara-adult-playground-free-screwing-pics.html pic kara adult playground free screwing pics html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/kara-playground-picture-porn-adult-free-pics.html kara playground picture porn adult free pics html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/kara-adult-cunt-playground-creamy-pics.html kara adult cunt playground creamy pics html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/adult-playground-pics-kara-group.html adult playground pics kara group html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/kara-playground-eater-cum-adult-pics.html kara playground eater cum adult pics html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/kara-adult-playground-pic-blow-pics-job-free-of.html kara adult playground pic blow pics job free of html http://www.amateurgirlsnake.com/gallery-kara-adult-playground-free-pussy-pics.html gallery kara adult playground free pussy pics html

Posted by: mpeg boy babies top feet beatiful soft teen african playboy zoophilia cindy crawford stud animalvide at July 24, 2004 07:25 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beast-woman-sex-sites-animal-dogsex-no-beastailty-free-penises-of-animals.html beast woman sex sites animal dogsex no beastailty free penises of animals html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/mamadas/index.html mamadas index html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beauty-beastiality-beastly-farmanimal-animalfarm-animalsex-movies-women-farmanimals-lesbians-fuking-insertion-hardcore-porno-free-animal-sex.html beauty beastiality beastly farmanimal animalfarm animalsex movies women farmanimals lesbians fuking insertion hardcore porno free animal sex html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beastality-oics-animal-beast-xxx.html beastality oics animal beast xxx html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/jpg.html jpg html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/zoophilia-stories-extreme-gay-babes-body-pics-male-baby-cumshot-anderson-gif-als-ponnyfuck-avi-schoolgirl-up-hustler-erotica-nudes-masturbation-dildo-penthouse-celebrities-games-zoo-pass.html zoophilia stories extreme gay babes body pics male baby cumshot anderson gif als ponnyfuck avi schoolgirl up hustler erotica nudes masturbation dildo penthouse celebrities games zoo pass html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/anamal-of-cartoons.html anamal of cartoons html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/farmsex-beastiality-beastly.html farmsex beastiality beastly html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/www-wwwfucking-beauty-beast-beastiality-animals-sex-beastly-whores-fucking-farm-animales-free-animal-beastality-pictures-of-snakes-com-beastialiy-dogfuck.html www wwwfucking beauty beast beastiality animals sex beastly whores fucking farm animales free animal beastality pictures of snakes com beastialiy dogfuck html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beauty-of-doing-sexanimals-dogs-beast-beastiality-beastialuty-free-pics-nude-girls-animal-farmanimals-porn-animalsex-women-sex-pic-ians-isreal-porno-withanimals.html beauty of doing sexanimals dogs beast beastiality beastialuty free pics nude girls animal farmanimals porn animalsex women sex pic ians isreal porno withanimals html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beast-free-fucking-amatuer-girls-photos-movie-bestiality-beauty-beastiality-sex-farmanimals-beastility-animals-drink-farmsex-freepics-animal-xxx-gallery.html beast free fucking amatuer girls photos movie bestiality beauty beastiality sex farmanimals beastility animals drink farmsex freepics animal xxx gallery html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/mom-fuck-beast-hair-beauty-for-havingsex-with-sex.html mom fuck beast hair beauty for havingsex with sex html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beastiality-mom-sexand-suck-unzensored-scatgallery-havingsex-with-animals-animal-girlssex-girls-sexanimal.html beastiality mom sexand suck unzensored scatgallery havingsex with animals animal girlssex girls sexanimal html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/beastiaity-beauty-beast-beastiality-farmanimal-love-women-fucking-sex-animales-animalsexstories-beastility-mpgs-xxx-animals-dog-pictuer-rooster-animal-farmsex-chat-rape.html beastiaity beauty beast beastiality farmanimal love women fucking sex animales animalsexstories beastility mpgs xxx animals dog pictuer rooster animal farmsex chat rape html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/asian-farmanimal-passion-fucking-beastsex-farm-animals-beauty-beast-beastiality-animallust-pics-animal-sex-beastility-animalrape-men-grils-beastialitycom-beastialityphotos.html asian farmanimal passion fucking beastsex farm animals beauty beast beastiality animallust pics animal sex beastility animalrape men grils beastialitycom beastialityphotos html http://www.analxxxgarden.com/video-animalsex-beauty-beast-freesex-animal-femalesex-wwwanimal-pornography-download-free-www-farmanimals-beastalitystories-beastiality-pages.html video animalsex beauty beast freesex animal femalesex wwwanimal pornography download free www farmanimals beastalitystories beastiality pages html

Posted by: The Best Porno on the NET at July 24, 2004 07:53 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.analbondagegames.com/thumbnail-anal-chatte-sexe-et-couple.html thumbnail anal chatte sexe et couple html http://www.analbondagegames.com/of-zoolofilia-women-male-teen-animal-nude-free-celebrity-pictures-sexy-celebraties-celebrities-thumbnails-50-bestiality-naked-beastiality-dog-beastality.html of zoolofilia women male teen animal nude free celebrity pictures sexy celebraties celebrities thumbnails 50 bestiality naked beastiality dog beastality html http://www.analbondagegames.com/breast-demi-movies-teenager-xxx-photography-feet-baby-foot-avi-pics-pre-fucking-blond-hardcore-hot-girls-shave-show-hair-best-cow.html breast demi movies teenager xxx photography feet baby foot avi pics pre fucking blond hardcore hot girls shave show hair best cow html http://www.analbondagegames.com/hentai.html hentai html http://www.analbondagegames.com/sluts-pictures-midteen-hot-black-whom-suck-illegal-mpeg-shaved-little-nude-thumbs-fucking-pussy-men-cum-thumbnail-free-banned-cunt.html sluts pictures midteen hot black whom suck illegal mpeg shaved little nude thumbs fucking pussy men cum thumbnail free banned cunt html http://www.analbondagegames.com/cb-pornographie-anal-adulte-masturbation-rencontre-jeunes-gays-jeune-mec-bien-membr-photo-sodomies-mecs-porno-homo-gay-adultes-hommes-homme-partouzes.html cb pornographie anal adulte masturbation rencontre jeunes gays jeune mec bien membr photo sodomies mecs porno homo gay adultes hommes homme partouzes html http://www.analbondagegames.com/erotic-wife-male-pornstories.html erotic wife male pornstories html http://www.analbondagegames.com/hentai-tits-teens-avi-pics-pussy-cartoon-fun-amateur-shaved-3x-sexe-small-sex-hardcore-snuff.html hentai tits teens avi pics pussy cartoon fun amateur shaved 3x sexe small sex hardcore snuff html http://www.analbondagegames.com/shows-anal-women-live-sex-hardcore-pictures-nude-free-site-chat-pics-oral-xxx.html shows anal women live sex hardcore pictures nude free site chat pics oral xxx html http://www.analbondagegames.com/japan-livesex-bondage-rooms-facials-black-nasty-pretty-livevideo-white-cunts-you-suck-milk.html japan livesex bondage rooms facials black nasty pretty livevideo white cunts you suck milk html http://www.analbondagegames.com/girl-adult-zoophilia-fucking-dog-cow-sex.html girl adult zoophilia fucking dog cow sex html http://www.analbondagegames.com/sales-law-books-time-virginia-how-san-public-pictures-breasts-engineering-studren-avi-anal-robert-health-japanese-engine-small-marketing-ftp-america-february-free-sex-the-nude.html sales law books time virginia how san public pictures breasts engineering studren avi anal robert health japanese engine small marketing ftp america february free sex the nude html http://www.analbondagegames.com/sexo-sexe-femmes-anal-seins.html sexo sexe femmes anal seins html http://www.analbondagegames.com/anal-realaudio-amateur-black-fake-dogsex-nudity-intercourse-playboy-photos-pussy-body-schoolgirl-orgy-nipples-zoo-adult-tit.html anal realaudio amateur black fake dogsex nudity intercourse playboy photos pussy body schoolgirl orgy nipples zoo adult tit html http://www.analbondagegames.com/eels-pussy-tit-freepics-lion-beastiality.html eels pussy tit freepics lion beastiality html http://www.analbondagegames.com/and-of-cumshots-extreme-hardcore-pictures-spread-open-vaginas.html and of cumshots extreme hardcore pictures spread open vaginas html

Posted by: animal porn free incest stories bizzarre free pics at August 1, 2004 12:01 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.licknudecat.com/human-bestiality.html human bestiality html http://www.licknudecat.com/small-boobs/index.html small boobs index html http://www.licknudecat.com/free/index.html free index html http://www.licknudecat.com/freie-sex-kanal-der-porno-girl.html freie sex kanal der porno girl html http://www.licknudecat.com/perfect-ass.html perfect ass html http://www.licknudecat.com/youngs-nude-girl.html youngs nude girl html http://www.licknudecat.com/girl/girl/index.html girl girl index html http://www.licknudecat.com/black-fucking.html black fucking html http://www.licknudecat.com/xxx-picture.html xxx picture html http://www.licknudecat.com/pictures-sex-pics.html pictures sex pics html http://www.licknudecat.com/sex-umsonst-hardcore-flittchen-muschi.html sex umsonst hardcore flittchen muschi html http://www.licknudecat.com/buraco-nackte-wahrheit-damler-benz-negro.html buraco nackte wahrheit damler benz negro html http://www.licknudecat.com/horse-fucking-woman.html horse fucking woman html http://www.licknudecat.com/anal-sex-free-pic.html anal sex free pic html http://www.licknudecat.com/cul-femme-histoire-breast-nudistes-photo-nudisme-la-beaux.html cul femme histoire breast nudistes photo nudisme la beaux html http://www.licknudecat.com/fetiche-teens-historias-fotos-videos-con-de-sexo-parejas-gratis-spics.html fetiche teens historias fotos videos con de sexo parejas gratis spics html

Posted by: foot sex pictures free erotic photos of womens feet at August 1, 2004 12:19 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.licknudecat.com/photo-simplement-seins-erotique-belgique-sexe-celebrites.html photo simplement seins erotique belgique sexe celebrites html http://www.licknudecat.com/oral-intercourse-foot-mpeg.html oral intercourse foot mpeg html http://www.licknudecat.com/ass-to-mouth.html ass to mouth html http://www.licknudecat.com/celeb-nudes-britney-free-picture-singapore-models-spear-woman-celebrity-nude-pic.html celeb nudes britney free picture singapore models spear woman celebrity nude pic html http://www.licknudecat.com/asian-celebrity-pubescent-britney-pic-young-nude-woman-celeb-spear-picture.html asian celebrity pubescent britney pic young nude woman celeb spear picture html http://www.licknudecat.com/password-sights-picture-anima-movie-free-xxx-video-story.html password sights picture anima movie free xxx video story html http://www.licknudecat.com/sexo-gratis-foto.html sexo gratis foto html http://www.licknudecat.com/sex-rooms.html sex rooms html http://www.licknudecat.com/porno-free/porno.html porno free porno html http://www.licknudecat.com/free-bondage-story/index.html free bondage story index html http://www.licknudecat.com/gros-woman-demeures-de-et-nu-sexy-asian-petite-charme-filles-femmes-boules-plage-bikini-photo-rousses-nues-culotte.html gros woman demeures de et nu sexy asian petite charme filles femmes boules plage bikini photo rousses nues culotte html http://www.licknudecat.com/free-bestiality-sites/index.html free bestiality sites index html http://www.licknudecat.com/free-live-sex/free-live-sex.html free live sex free live sex html http://www.licknudecat.com/anal-sex-free.html anal sex free html http://www.licknudecat.com/site-ol-cul-de-sexo-en-espa-chicas-espanol.html site ol cul de sexo en espa chicas espanol html http://www.licknudecat.com/girls-pute-film-pornographie-spice-nues-petites-annonces-rencontres-lesbiennes-the-odd-couple-nu-life.html girls pute film pornographie spice nues petites annonces rencontres lesbiennes the odd couple nu life html

Posted by: foot sex pictures free erotic photos of womens feet at August 1, 2004 01:00 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/swinger-pics-bilder.html swinger pics bilder html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/girl-huge-tits-free-woman-porn-pussy-cock-sex-black-star.html girl huge tits free woman porn pussy cock sex black star html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/fat-ladies-porn-hot-ass-black-star-woman-free-pussy-girl-cock.html fat ladies porn hot ass black star woman free pussy girl cock html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/pussy-porn-naked-thumbnails-ass-sex-hot-black-woman.html pussy porn naked thumbnails ass sex hot black woman html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/ass-sex-black.html ass sex black html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/cock-star-hot-pics-woman-freeblack-free-porn-black-girl-pussy.html cock star hot pics woman freeblack free porn black girl pussy html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/action.html action html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/sex-porn-free-black-cock-ass-girl-woman-hot-star.html sex porn free black cock ass girl woman hot star html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/porn-black-pussy-girl.html porn black pussy girl html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/girl-hot-lotita-porn-star-black-free-ass-woman-pussy-cock-sex.html girl hot lotita porn star black free ass woman pussy cock sex html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/girl-black-porn-cock-star.html girl black porn cock star html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/amateurdog-his.html amateurdog his html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/sexe-rencontres-gros-en-france-femme.html sexe rencontres gros en france femme html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/sexo-chatte-noire-et-enceinte-mouillie-sexe-oral-anal-femme.html sexo chatte noire et enceinte mouillie sexe oral anal femme html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/giga-tits-black-ass-girl-free-porn-pussy-sex-star-hot-woman-cock.html giga tits black ass girl free porn pussy sex star hot woman cock html http://www.schoolgirlsexgayman.com/stories-fuentes-com-penis-cindy-pink-lee-phone.html stories fuentes com penis cindy pink lee phone html

Posted by: Adult Sex at August 1, 2004 03:41 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.analbondagefun.com/sexo-seins-normes-nue-sexe-et-chatte-mouillie-oral-anal-ses-sein.html sexo seins normes nue sexe et chatte mouillie oral anal ses sein html http://www.analbondagefun.com/kara-playground-pics-sex-movie-adult-anal.html kara playground pics sex movie adult anal html http://www.analbondagefun.com/la-manequin-europ-cumshots-supermodel-lesbienne-chatte-cul-jeunes-femmes.html la manequin europ cumshots supermodel lesbienne chatte cul jeunes femmes html http://www.analbondagefun.com/oral-jeune-chatte-fille-sexe-sexo-et-mouillie-anal-galerie-france-erotique.html oral jeune chatte fille sexe sexo et mouillie anal galerie france erotique html http://www.analbondagefun.com/pics-gia-kara-adult-playground.html pics gia kara adult playground html http://www.analbondagefun.com/thumbnail-magie-celebrites-nues.html thumbnail magie celebrites nues html http://www.analbondagefun.com/babes-rm-avi-best-animals-xxx-exhibitionism-fuck-you-ejacuations-farmsex-bestiality-realvideo-zoo-nudity-dogsex-pig-snakefuck-feet-fisting-intercourse-foot-nude-studren-picture-supermodels-blowjobs-masturbation-shave-close-bodybuilder.html babes rm avi best animals xxx exhibitionism fuck you ejacuations farmsex bestiality realvideo zoo nudity dogsex pig snakefuck feet fisting intercourse foot nude studren picture supermodels blowjobs masturbation shave close bodybuilder html http://www.analbondagefun.com/ejaculation-mouillie-lesbiennes-lesbian-sexo-oral-et-les.html ejaculation mouillie lesbiennes lesbian sexo oral et les html http://www.analbondagefun.com/sexe-d-a-interacial-penthouse-europ-tr-s-penetration-photo-scories-lesbien-cumshots-sex.html sexe d a interacial penthouse europ tr s penetration photo scories lesbien cumshots sex html http://www.analbondagefun.com/teen-clicnic.html teen clicnic html http://www.analbondagefun.com/show-ass-amateurs-sex-fuck-mpg-animalvideo-video-voyeurism-rm-schoolgirl-movies-men-snake-brunette-hidencamera-suck-cunts.html show ass amateurs sex fuck mpg animalvideo video voyeurism rm schoolgirl movies men snake brunette hidencamera suck cunts html http://www.analbondagefun.com/mistress-master-slave-slaves-sexual-slavery.html mistress master slave slaves sexual slavery html http://www.analbondagefun.com/japanese-snake-fucking-fuck-teen-gynecologist-xx-zoo-camp-hiden-nudes-gays-animals-model.html japanese snake fucking fuck teen gynecologist xx zoo camp hiden nudes gays animals model html http://www.analbondagefun.com/rm-blondes-eel-gif-video-red-petsex-oral-soft-orgy-games-girls.html rm blondes eel gif video red petsex oral soft orgy games girls html http://www.analbondagefun.com/kara-adult-playground-pics-free-fat-chick-nude.html kara adult playground pics free fat chick nude html http://www.analbondagefun.com/oral-anal-picture-sexo-et-chatte-mouillie-sexe-rencontres.html oral anal picture sexo et chatte mouillie sexe rencontres html

Posted by: handcuffs hard core titanic amatuers foot sperme cum sm fetish pics orgy big tits pamela and tommy l at August 1, 2004 08:58 AM | PERMALINK

Really enjoyed the posts

Posted by: Buy Valium online at August 1, 2004 06:46 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/the-best-schwanz.html the best schwanz html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/the-porn-in-rope-bondage.html the porn in rope bondage html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/better-animal-live-free-sex-porn-video.html better animal live free sex porn video html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/squirting-long-huge-tit-mpegs-sex-penis-pee-cunt-tits-female-masturbation-videos-pornstar-old-nudes-sexy-bikini-babes-russian-girls.html squirting long huge tit mpegs sex penis pee cunt tits female masturbation videos pornstar old nudes sexy bikini babes russian girls html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/kostenlos-bilder-ficken-bumsen-bollern-nackt-erotik-nudepics-vogeln-schwanz.html kostenlos bilder ficken bumsen bollern nackt erotik nudepics vogeln schwanz html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/beastality.html beastality html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/photo-de-nue-blonde-pornstars-japanese-sexe-self-bondage-lingerie.html photo de nue blonde pornstars japanese sexe self bondage lingerie html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/the-porn-muschi.html the porn muschi html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/xxx-rouges.html xxx rouges html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/free-and-gay-private-sex-twink-thumb.html free and gay private sex twink thumb html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/housewives-beastility-free-picture-the-best-ever.html housewives beastility free picture the best ever html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/adult-sites-net.html adult sites net html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/wet-gays-japanese-amateur-voyeurs-cindy-mpg-madonna-virtual-zoo-hiden-celebrities-brunette-fuck-off-livesex-dirty-schoolgirls-real.html wet gays japanese amateur voyeurs cindy mpg madonna virtual zoo hiden celebrities brunette fuck off livesex dirty schoolgirls real html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/the-best-porn-argentinas-en.html the best porn argentinas en html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/ians.html ians html http://www.live-shower-shows-free.com/and-private-free-gay-twink-boy-pics.html and private free gay twink boy pics html

Posted by: black nude girls for ebony teens lovers at August 2, 2004 06:36 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/crawford-cow-african-hiden-lion.html crawford cow african hiden lion html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/beastyality.html beastyality html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/sex-girls-having-animals-with-horses.html sex girls having animals with horses html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/photo-filles-nus.html photo filles nus html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/beastility.html beastility html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/fotografias-de-imagenes-buenas-gratis-alyssa-fotos-sexo-oral.html fotografias de imagenes buenas gratis alyssa fotos sexo oral html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/video-samples-chat-illegal-little-teens-nude-free-gallery-teen-hardcore-movies-japanese-sex.html video samples chat illegal little teens nude free gallery teen hardcore movies japanese sex html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/women-links-older-piss-free-nude-mature-pics-naked-celebrity-girls-wavs-transvestite-naughty-cartoon-jpg-celebrities-tit-milky-nipples-dripping-wet-pussy.html women links older piss free nude mature pics naked celebrity girls wavs transvestite naughty cartoon jpg celebrities tit milky nipples dripping wet pussy html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/flat-pics-teenage-nude-teens-hardcore-video-free-japanese-movies-gallery-amateur-teen-sex.html flat pics teenage nude teens hardcore video free japanese movies gallery amateur teen sex html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/amateur-password-samples-free-nude-teen-movies.html amateur password samples free nude teen movies html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/cuzinho/index.html cuzinho index html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/mature-hardcore-men-rape-voyeur-cheerleaders-and-sex-pictures-naked-straight-sexy-older-women-free-blowjob-mpegs-super-heroines-in-bondage-woman-hidden-masturbation-gallery-anal-sindhi-babes.html mature hardcore men rape voyeur cheerleaders and sex pictures naked straight sexy older women free blowjob mpegs super heroines in bondage woman hidden masturbation gallery anal sindhi babes html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/celebrites-history-france-bild-prostitution-jeune-picture-nude-of-les-page-pour-travesti-quebec-pornographie-sexe.html celebrites history france bild prostitution jeune picture nude of les page pour travesti quebec pornographie sexe html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/pictures-mujer-clitoris-mirada-de-apretada.html pictures mujer clitoris mirada de apretada html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/beast.html beast html http://www.passwordspussynudity.com/com-voyeurweb.html com voyeurweb html

Posted by: Zoo sex Girl fuck dog beast fucking Beast porn pet sex animalsex dogsex at August 2, 2004 08:29 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.adultcocksucking.com/girls-porn-japan-wet-lesbians-red-ponnyfuck-bondage-pics-liveshow-intercourse-vivo.html girls porn japan wet lesbians red ponnyfuck bondage pics liveshow intercourse vivo html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/voyeur-up-zoophilia-vivo-snakefuck-avi-big-animalvideos-real-dog-toys-photography-girl-pass-ponnyfuck-exhibitionism-live-bears-cats-livesex-pig-movie-wet-close-voyeurism-zebra-masturbation-stroking-pussy-male.html voyeur up zoophilia vivo snakefuck avi big animalvideos real dog toys photography girl pass ponnyfuck exhibitionism live bears cats livesex pig movie wet close voyeurism zebra masturbation stroking pussy male html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/download-beast-beastiality-for-beauty-videos-bizare-sex-free-picture-of.html download beast beastiality for beauty videos bizare sex free picture of html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/cocks-liveshow-blowjobs-hustler-amateur-nudes-indian-animal-girl-cow-demi-schoolgirls-nudity-toys-nipples-supermodels-celebrities-teenager-gays-movie-schoolgirl-white-exhibitionism.html cocks liveshow blowjobs hustler amateur nudes indian animal girl cow demi schoolgirls nudity toys nipples supermodels celebrities teenager gays movie schoolgirl white exhibitionism html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/farm-fucking-free-beast-beastiality-mateing-with-weman-family-animals-100-video-of-people-sex-beastialty.html farm fucking free beast beastiality mateing with weman family animals 100 video of people sex beastialty html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/ass-hidencamera-playboy-small-dog-drink-fucking-animalvideos-woman-porn-farmsex-teen-games-rm-lion-girl-dogsex-gay-japan-red-zoophilia-top-pass-model-moore-fuck-pig.html ass hidencamera playboy small dog drink fucking animalvideos woman porn farmsex teen games rm lion girl dogsex gay japan red zoophilia top pass model moore fuck pig html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/schoolgirls-dominatrix-gigantic.html schoolgirls dominatrix gigantic html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/anal-blowjobs-cock-porn-bondage.html anal blowjobs cock porn bondage html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/comic-personal-ads-honeybee-horny-bitch-underwater-asian-nude-gay-porn-swingers-drew-barrymore.html comic personal ads honeybee horny bitch underwater asian nude gay porn swingers drew barrymore html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/show-sperma-hot-anderson-xx-off-freepic-cock.html show sperma hot anderson xx off freepic cock html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/sucking-teen-fuck-penthouse-drinking-best-show-dildo-school-japanese-movie-large-milk-hair-cat-woman-drink-avi-hard-early-gynecologist-chat-spam-ejacuations-amateurs.html sucking teen fuck penthouse drinking best show dildo school japanese movie large milk hair cat woman drink avi hard early gynecologist chat spam ejacuations amateurs html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/live-warez-erotica-pictures-farmsex-gays-cunts-realvideo-photo-livesex-hustler-animals-cyberporn-shows-fuck-you-cats-porn-top-bestiality-dirty-sexxx-teens-man-xx-vagina-real.html live warez erotica pictures farmsex gays cunts realvideo photo livesex hustler animals cyberporn shows fuck you cats porn top bestiality dirty sexxx teens man xx vagina real html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/pussy-breasts-amp-hot-nude-teens-porn-xxx-sex-young-asian-girls.html pussy breasts amp hot nude teens porn xxx sex young asian girls html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/fake-stroking-models-hard-teenage-hustler-celebrities-pamela-anderson-zoophilia-cat-voyeurs-cindy-crawford-photography-warez.html fake stroking models hard teenage hustler celebrities pamela anderson zoophilia cat voyeurs cindy crawford photography warez html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/woman-pictures-meeting-point-butt-lover-cartoon-hentai-clitoris-nude-blowjob-dick-marina-sirtis-japanese.html woman pictures meeting point butt lover cartoon hentai clitoris nude blowjob dick marina sirtis japanese html http://www.adultcocksucking.com/chicks-gay-animals-with-hardcoresex-fuckin-farm-www-sexoanimal-freepictures.html chicks gay animals with hardcoresex fuckin farm www sexoanimal freepictures html

Posted by: 100 MASTURBER gay transex ressources teen boy partie film nue changiste at August 2, 2004 02:43 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.amateursexlogins.com/suck-beatiful-top-tit-little-avi-video-teen-school-crawford-masturbation-madonna-stroking-blowjob-hot-bears-cindy-camera-shows-chat-babes-redheads-sucking-bmp-dog-sexxx-pig-photography-teens-sex-animals-nipples.html suck beatiful top tit little avi video teen school crawford masturbation madonna stroking blowjob hot bears cindy camera shows chat babes redheads sucking bmp dog sexxx pig photography teens sex animals nipples html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/shemale-wife-picture-bizarre-stories-org-escorts-over-40-pics-cartoon-animal-free-bondage-girls-japanese-asian-beastiality-bizzare-facials-sex-pic-post.html shemale wife picture bizarre stories org escorts over 40 pics cartoon animal free bondage girls japanese asian beastiality bizzare facials sex pic post html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/cul-chatte-et-mouillie-sexo-nackte-sexe-oral-anal-chat-adulte-cette-putain-de-machine.html cul chatte et mouillie sexo nackte sexe oral anal chat adulte cette putain de machine html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/tit-porn-animalsex-cyberporn-soft-body.html tit porn animalsex cyberporn soft body html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/shot-vivo-rm-redheads-supermodels-fuck-real-bondage-african-nasty-orgy-cats-pissing-fisting-blowjobs-toys-cindy-cum-demi.html shot vivo rm redheads supermodels fuck real bondage african nasty orgy cats pissing fisting blowjobs toys cindy cum demi html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/beast-beauty-beastiality-beastility-fucking-zoogirls-animale-girles-clips-farmanimals-gorilla-animal-sexe-beastialiy-dogs-women-fetish-sexanimal-farm-free-beastality.html beast beauty beastiality beastility fucking zoogirls animale girles clips farmanimals gorilla animal sexe beastialiy dogs women fetish sexanimal farm free beastality html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/sexo-sexe-oral-huge-mouillie-et-anal-picture-clitoris-gallery.html sexo sexe oral huge mouillie et anal picture clitoris gallery html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/pigs-cows.html pigs cows html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/de-nage-erotique-x-m.html de nage erotique x m html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/pictures-women-anime-beauty-beast-beastiality-beastialiy-previews-womansex-sex-with-animal-animalcocks-free-beastailty-dogs-men-xxx-photos.html pictures women anime beauty beast beastiality beastialiy previews womansex sex with animal animalcocks free beastailty dogs men xxx photos html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/mouillie-sexo-nackte-oral-bizarre-s-chatte-sexe-et-anal-game-bisexual-couple-bianca-masturbation-index.html mouillie sexo nackte oral bizarre s chatte sexe et anal game bisexual couple bianca masturbation index html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/with-free-beauty-beast-beastiality-beastiliaty-beastility-sites-woman-having-sex-farmanimal-ronchy-animal-farm-zoo-amsterdam-gay-animals-canadian-porn-pics-farmanimals.html with free beauty beast beastiality beastiliaty beastility sites woman having sex farmanimal ronchy animal farm zoo amsterdam gay animals canadian porn pics farmanimals html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/gynecologist-picture-japanese-realaudio-penthouse-nasty-teen-blond-cocks-toys-large-shows-male-oral-female-pregnant-lesbians-xxx-small-milk.html gynecologist picture japanese realaudio penthouse nasty teen blond cocks toys large shows male oral female pregnant lesbians xxx small milk html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/mouillie-sexe-sexo-oral-et-anal-chinoises-nue-chatte-rasee-noire-ras-e.html mouillie sexe sexo oral et anal chinoises nue chatte rasee noire ras e html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/fucking-sexual-crawford-model-small-fuck-masturbation-vagina-teenage-xx-snake-dogsex-petsex-erotica-close-nipples-sperma-sex-demi-hair-orgy.html fucking sexual crawford model small fuck masturbation vagina teenage xx snake dogsex petsex erotica close nipples sperma sex demi hair orgy html http://www.amateursexlogins.com/et-sexo-sexe-chatte-nackte-oral-anal-bizarre-image.html et sexo sexe chatte nackte oral anal bizarre image html

Posted by: hardcore sex hardcore sex online and hardcore pictures with hardcore live video sex at August 2, 2004 04:23 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.analbondageshows.com/fred-france-femmes-gar-couple-foutre.html fred france femmes gar couple foutre html http://www.analbondageshows.com/gif-zoo-movies-close-real-sperma-shawed-teens-small-red-voyeur-fake-eel-snakefuck-breast-amateurs-white-stories-school-models-dildo-studren-pig-chat-photography-nipples-mpeg-farmsex-baby-fuck.html gif zoo movies close real sperma shawed teens small red voyeur fake eel snakefuck breast amateurs white stories school models dildo studren pig chat photography nipples mpeg farmsex baby fuck html http://www.analbondageshows.com/culotte-femme.html culotte femme html http://www.analbondageshows.com/is-live-megapussy-site-for-this-your-sex-pussy.html is live megapussy site for this your sex pussy html http://www.analbondageshows.com/pussy-site-is.html pussy site is html http://www.analbondageshows.com/body-voyeurism-bestiality-pre-shot-teens-realvideo-animalvideos-movie-show-penis-supermodels-petsex-mpeg-zoophilia-zebra-hardcore-blond-blowjobs-teenager-top-lesbians-cam-ass-sexxx-cumshot-off.html body voyeurism bestiality pre shot teens realvideo animalvideos movie show penis supermodels petsex mpeg zoophilia zebra hardcore blond blowjobs teenager top lesbians cam ass sexxx cumshot off html http://www.analbondageshows.com/thumbnail-gallery.html thumbnail gallery html http://www.analbondageshows.com/teen-lesbian-pictures-passion-flower.html teen lesbian pictures passion flower html http://www.analbondageshows.com/sexe-en-nues-et-france-cb-belles-photo-sans-gar-ons-de-femmes-lesbianas.html sexe en nues et france cb belles photo sans gar ons de femmes lesbianas html http://www.analbondageshows.com/free-pics-teenagers-amature-xxx-pictures-emails.html free pics teenagers amature xxx pictures emails html http://www.analbondageshows.com/fetish-bizarre-passion-flower.html fetish bizarre passion flower html http://www.analbondageshows.com/bondage-video-milk-hot.html bondage video milk hot html http://www.analbondageshows.com/cb-et-ons-jeunes-filles-exibitionnistes-en-nues-sexe-france-sans-belles-femmes-gar-naturistes.html cb et ons jeunes filles exibitionnistes en nues sexe france sans belles femmes gar naturistes html http://www.analbondageshows.com/www-pigs-com.html www pigs com html http://www.analbondageshows.com/youngs-spank-barefoot-pussy-feetlovers-women-nude-celebrities-pamula-anderson-lee-muscle-girls-minors-rape-show-swedish-naked-gay-sex-samples.html youngs spank barefoot pussy feetlovers women nude celebrities pamula anderson lee muscle girls minors rape show swedish naked gay sex samples html http://www.analbondageshows.com/en-sans-cb-belles-gar-nu-pics-france-nues-femmes-sexe-et-ons-bizarre.html en sans cb belles gar nu pics france nues femmes sexe et ons bizarre html

Posted by: pigs at August 2, 2004 07:05 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/de-films.html de films html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/backdoors-model-links-dvd-passwords-movie-site-cartoon-adult-chat-video-free.html backdoors model links dvd passwords movie site cartoon adult chat video free html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/site-model-toy-cartoon-japanese-av-star-free-links-dvd-chat-adult.html site model toy cartoon japanese av star free links dvd chat adult html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/passwords-sex-toy-model-free-links-cartoon-site-porn-adult-movie-dvd-video.html passwords sex toy model free links cartoon site porn adult movie dvd video html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/sexpages-masos-lingeries-enculer.html sexpages masos lingeries enculer html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/to-softcore-asian-nookie-gallery-with-links-sites.html to softcore asian nookie gallery with links sites html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/faire-enculer-stars-les-doigter-une-salopes-veulent-par-dans-voiture-se-routiers-en-plusieurs-vacances.html faire enculer stars les doigter une salopes veulent par dans voiture se routiers en plusieurs vacances html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/faire-bureau-ses-routiers-plusieurs-et-se-jouir-par-au-nathalie-copines-veulent.html faire bureau ses routiers plusieurs et se jouir par au nathalie copines veulent html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/le-clito-rocco-se-par-toilettes-une-la-dans.html le clito rocco se par toilettes une la dans html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/cartoon-links-toy-news-adult-check-dvd-groups-video.html cartoon links toy news adult check dvd groups video html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/model-links.html model links html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/com-nookie-galleries-nookie2000-asian-by.html com nookie galleries nookie2000 asian by html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/woman/index.html woman index html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/bizarre-fetish/index.html bizarre fetish index html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/doigter-enculer-se-faire-patron.html doigter enculer se faire patron html http://www.lesbiansmodelman.com/sexpages-masos-suceuses-mettre.html sexpages masos suceuses mettre html

Posted by: Free Porn at August 3, 2004 05:15 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/fucking-asian-hot.html fucking asian hot html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/picture-gay-chat-teen-free-lesbian-porn.html picture gay chat teen free lesbian porn html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/celebrities-personals-shemale-domina-nude-mature-old-woman-porn-over-40-animal-sex-pics.html celebrities personals shemale domina nude mature old woman porn over 40 animal sex pics html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/sexy-film-sex-biggest-cunt-nudes.html sexy film sex biggest cunt nudes html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/story-free-picture-lesbian-chat-porn-sex.html story free picture lesbian chat porn sex html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/best.html best html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/men-animal-pornografia-asian-celeb-nude-latin-picture-celebridades-orgy-mom-photos.html men animal pornografia asian celeb nude latin picture celebridades orgy mom photos html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/teens-bikini-free.html teens bikini free html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/links2.php/blonde/index.html links2 php blonde index html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/zoophilia.html zoophilia html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/bikinis-stories-ladies-topless-domina-teens-sex.html bikinis stories ladies topless domina teens sex html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/mpegs-pregnant.html mpegs pregnant html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/pic-cartoon-girl-free-animated-xxx-funny-picture-animal-sex.html pic cartoon girl free animated xxx funny picture animal sex html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/di-humiliation-clits-guzzling-sesso-videos.html di humiliation clits guzzling sesso videos html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/chat.html chat html http://www.nakedadultxxx.com/story-free-picture-lesbian-chat-porn-sex.html story free picture lesbian chat porn sex html

Posted by: Zoophile Pictures the sick beast sex farmfucking sexual animal farm sex now alice in wonderzoo at August 3, 2004 02:34 PM | PERMALINK

Great looking Blog Keep up the good work!

Posted by: Debt Consolidation Loans at August 4, 2004 02:53 PM | PERMALINK

Ambien medication brings back the much required sleep. Try Ambien medication now.

Posted by: Ambien at August 4, 2004 10:16 PM | PERMALINK

Great forum, really enjoyed reading some of the posts

Posted by: Buy Vicodin Online at August 5, 2004 05:30 PM | PERMALINK

Try the Phentermine for instant weight loss. Buy Phentermine today and become a slim-beauty now.

Posted by: Buy phentermine at August 9, 2004 05:23 AM | PERMALINK

Great forum, really enjoyed reading some of the posts

Posted by: Buy Hydrocodone Online at August 9, 2004 07:46 PM | PERMALINK

Lovn the blogs,
keep em goin....

Posted by: Buy Ambien Online at August 9, 2004 07:58 PM | PERMALINK

Interesting site some good reading keep up the blog!

Posted by: Buy Vicodin Online at August 9, 2004 09:45 PM | PERMALINK

Excellent site. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: casino at August 10, 2004 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Is it true or not? Could the pill work for me? Get more information!

Inform about possible penis enlargement exercises

Read the truth about penis enlargement pills

Penis enlargement

For webmaster: if you consider that the comment is unapropiate I'm sorry and please remove it from your database. Contact me at georgeadams1978@yahoo.com.

Posted by: penis enlargement at August 10, 2004 04:41 PM | PERMALINK

Really enjoyed the posts

Posted by: Cheap Vicodin prescription at August 11, 2004 03:43 PM | PERMALINK

You brought up
some valid points there...
Nice One..

Posted by: ADT Security at August 11, 2004 06:48 PM | PERMALINK

http://sacki-and-more-siteson-for-html.analbondagegames.com/sacki-and-more-siteson-for.html sacki and more siteson for html http://asiatiques-supermodel-sexe-voyeur-res-libre.analbondagegames.com/asiatiques-supermodel-sexe-voyeur-res-libre-sluts.html asiatiques supermodel sexe voyeur res libre sluts html http://pics-brunette-picture-baby-early-big.analbondagegames.com/pics-brunette-picture-baby-early-big-petsex-latex-shot-top-zoophilia-pig-nipples-stories-zoo-celebrity-gayman-games-anal-men-penthouse.html pics brunette picture baby early big petsex latex shot top zoophilia pig nipples stories zoo celebrity gayman games anal men penthouse html http://lesbians-oral-livesex-sex-cyberporn-hiden.analbondagegames.com/lesbians-oral-livesex-sex-cyberporn-hiden.html lesbians oral livesex sex cyberporn hiden html http://pornographie-poitrine-blonde-sexe-platinum-sexo.analbondagegames.com/pornographie-poitrine-blonde-sexe-platinum-sexo-chatte-mouillie-oral-et-anal-picture-nue.html pornographie poitrine blonde sexe platinum sexo chatte mouillie oral et anal picture nue html http://animalfarm-index-html.analbondagegames.com/animalfarm/index.html animalfarm index html http://virgins-sex-pics-asian-teen-html.analbondagegames.com/virgins-sex-pics-asian-teen.html virgins sex pics asian teen html http://sexo-chatte-mouillie-sexe-oral-et.analbondagegames.com/sexo-chatte-mouillie-sexe-oral-et-anal-fesses-rouges-sexy-femmes-obsure.html sexo chatte mouillie sexe oral et anal fesses rouges sexy femmes obsure html http://illegal-movies-black-thumpnail-teens-html.analbondagegames.com/illegal-movies-black-thumpnail-teens.html illegal movies black thumpnail teens html http://xxx-sex-teen-and-pictures-free.analbondagegames.com/xxx-sex-teen-and-pictures-free-porn-pics-mp3.html xxx sex teen and pictures free porn pics mp3 html http://exhibitionist-exibitionist-erotische-erwachsen-erwachsene-escort.analbondagegames.com/exhibitionist-exibitionist-erotische-erwachsen-erwachsene-escort-exhibitionismus.html exhibitionist exibitionist erotische erwachsen erwachsene escort exhibitionismus html http://lesbians-fuck-xxx-brunette-body-blowjobs.analbondagegames.com/lesbians-fuck-xxx-brunette-body-blowjobs-gymnast.html lesbians fuck xxx brunette body blowjobs gymnast html http://femme-large-japanese-teenporn-cumshots-teens.analbondagegames.com/femme-large-japanese-teenporn-cumshots-teens-gay-transexual-links-nues-breasts-nude-erotica-couples-sex-slut-chat-ladies-fucking.html femme large japanese teenporn cumshots teens gay transexual links nues breasts nude erotica couples sex slut chat ladies fucking html http://male-sex-gaysex-teens-free-anders.analbondagegames.com/male-sex-gaysex-teens-free-anders-gay-pics-pamela-make-money-wwwgay.html male sex gaysex teens free anders gay pics pamela make money wwwgay html http://rape-bondage-tasteless-got-news-incest.analbondagegames.com/rape-bondage-tasteless-got-news-incest-teens-femdom-name-erotica-controversial-usenet-decoding-torture-you-we-it.html rape bondage tasteless got news incest teens femdom name erotica controversial usenet decoding torture you we it html http://orgy-photo-indian-schoolgirl-amateurs-pre.analbondagegames.com/orgy-photo-indian-schoolgirl-amateurs-pre-shaved-petsex-animalsex-japan-penis-pics-virtual-babes-camp-breast-mpeg-schoolgirls-vivo-fake-ass-photos-feet-animalvideos-dog-blond-eel-extreme-body-top.html orgy photo indian schoolgirl amateurs pre shaved petsex animalsex japan penis pics virtual babes camp breast mpeg schoolgirls vivo fake ass photos feet animalvideos dog blond eel extreme body top html

Posted by: animal porn free incest stories bizzarre free pics at August 12, 2004 02:45 PM | PERMALINK

http://horse-porno-index-html.analpornliveshow.com/horse-porno/index.html horse porno index html http://dogfuck-index-html.analpornliveshow.com/dogfuck/index.html dogfuck index html http://animal-free-animal-free-html.analpornliveshow.com/animal-free/animal-free.html animal free animal free html http://wife-erotic-story-html.analpornliveshow.com/wife-erotic-story.html wife erotic story html http://cell-picture-html.analpornliveshow.com/cell-picture.html cell picture html http://gratis-teens-html.analpornliveshow.com/gratis-teens.html gratis teens html http://sex-story-html.analpornliveshow.com/sex-story.html sex story html http://free-lesbain-sex-html.analpornliveshow.com/free-lesbain-sex.html free lesbain sex html http://teen-movie-html.analpornliveshow.com/teen-movie.html teen movie html http://free-farm-pic-index-html.analpornliveshow.com/free-farm-pic/index.html free farm pic index html http://animalsex-sample-html.analpornliveshow.com/animalsex-sample.html animalsex sample html http://animalsexbestiality-index-html.analpornliveshow.com/animalsexbestiality/index.html animalsexbestiality index html http://free-farm-porn-html.analpornliveshow.com/free-farm-porn.html free farm porn html http://historias-erotica-index-html.analpornliveshow.com/historias-erotica/index.html historias erotica index html http://latin-teens-html.analpornliveshow.com/latin-teens.html latin teens html http://porn-mpeg-mpeg-html.analpornliveshow.com/porn-mpeg/mpeg.html porn mpeg mpeg html

Posted by: FREE BIG TITS at August 13, 2004 03:30 AM | PERMALINK

http://fucking-on-the-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/fucking-on-the.html fucking on the html http://hardcore-landing-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/hardcore_landing.html hardcore landing html http://pantie-fine-chicks-free-desnuda-cam.cumshotshowcyber.com/pantie-fine-chicks-free-desnuda-cam-orgy-celeberties-their-oral-amateur-black-butt-celeb-missing-sexo-pussy-celebrites-pics-thumbnails-nude-celebs-celebrities-amature-live-net-big.html pantie fine chicks free desnuda cam orgy celeberties their oral amateur black butt celeb missing sexo pussy celebrites pics thumbnails nude celebs celebrities amature live net big html http://body-painting-body-painting-painting-body.cumshotshowcyber.com/body-painting/body-painting/painting-body.html body painting body painting painting body html http://movies-animal-sex-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/movies-animal-sex.html movies animal sex html http://photos-l-meilleurs-vieille-cochonnes-cochonne.cumshotshowcyber.com/photos-l-meilleurs-vieille-cochonnes-cochonne-annuaire-des-sites-de-nouvelle.html photos l meilleurs vieille cochonnes cochonne annuaire des sites de nouvelle html http://free-animalporn-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/free-animalporn.html free animalporn html http://farm-girls-index-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/farm-girls/index.html farm girls index html http://horse-cumshot-index-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/horse-cumshot/index.html horse cumshot index html http://teens-whore-anal-nude-first-dream.cumshotshowcyber.com/teens-whore-anal-nude-first-dream-sesso-big-booty-videos-donkey-cock-free-busty-vegas.html teens whore anal nude first dream sesso big booty videos donkey cock free busty vegas html http://bestiality-pics-index-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/bestiality-pics/index.html bestiality pics index html http://secrets-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/secrets.html secrets html http://horse-pussy-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/horse-pussy.html horse pussy html http://zoofilia-suruba-contos-index-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/zoofilia-suruba-contos/index.html zoofilia suruba contos index html http://porn-slut-cheerleaders-fat-women-movies.cumshotshowcyber.com/porn-slut-cheerleaders-fat-women-movies-voyeur-hard-core-black-gay-men-nude-highschool-camera-sexy-naked-beautiful-fucking-free-celebrity-tits-lesbian-lust.html porn slut cheerleaders fat women movies voyeur hard core black gay men nude highschool camera sexy naked beautiful fucking free celebrity tits lesbian lust html http://movies-animal-sex-html.cumshotshowcyber.com/movies-animal-sex.html movies animal sex html

Posted by: Asian Porn Pics Archive Asian girls listed for ease of veiwing at August 13, 2004 08:13 AM | PERMALINK

http://chattes-html.licknudecat.com/chattes.html chattes html http://hot-ass-index-html.licknudecat.com/hot-ass/index.html hot ass index html http://riesenbr-ste-lesbianas-negras-sanft-html.licknudecat.com/riesenbr-ste-lesbianas-negras-sanft.html riesenbr ste lesbianas negras sanft html http://where-can-i-find-free-erotic.licknudecat.com/where-can-i-find-free-erotic-story-online/index.html where can i find free erotic story online index html http://software-sex-and-html.licknudecat.com/software-sex-and.html software sex and html http://photo-porno-index-html.licknudecat.com/photo-porno/index.html photo porno index html http://free-woman-movie-html.licknudecat.com/free-woman-movie.html free woman movie html http://extreme-facial-cum-html.licknudecat.com/extreme-facial-cum.html extreme facial cum html http://porno-infantil-index-html.licknudecat.com/porno-infantil/index.html porno infantil index html http://s-ian-bestiality-links-html.licknudecat.com/s-ian-bestiality-links.html s ian bestiality links html http://britney-spear-model-giirl-asian-celeb.licknudecat.com/britney-spear-model-giirl-asian-celeb-pic-free-picture-celebrity-nude-girl.html britney spear model giirl asian celeb pic free picture celebrity nude girl html http://sweden-spear-girl-nude-woman-pic.licknudecat.com/sweden-spear-girl-nude-woman-pic-free-picture-celebrity-britney.html sweden spear girl nude woman pic free picture celebrity britney html http://fat-ass-index-html.licknudecat.com/fat-ass/index.html fat ass index html http://small-boobs-index-html.licknudecat.com/small-boobs/index.html small boobs index html http://tits-index-html.licknudecat.com/tits/index.html tits index html http://pleasures-xxx-animal-pictures-movies-stories.licknudecat.com/pleasures-xxx-animal-pictures-movies-stories-pics.html pleasures xxx animal pictures movies stories pics html

Posted by: foot sex pictures free erotic photos of womens feet at August 13, 2004 09:29 AM | PERMALINK

Really enjoyed the posts

Posted by: Buy Xanax Online at August 14, 2004 05:23 PM | PERMALINK


Thats very impressive..
What will they think of next?
.

Posted by: Buy zolpidem Online at August 15, 2004 05:37 PM | PERMALINK

Great blog here I like the design, keep up the good work :)

Posted by: Buy Hydrocodone APAP Online at August 15, 2004 07:19 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks so very much for taking your time to create this very useful and informative site. I have learned a lot from your site. Thanks!!

Posted by: herrys at August 16, 2004 02:40 AM | PERMALINK

This was very informative, some good reading

Posted by: Buy Viagra Online at August 16, 2004 08:57 PM | PERMALINK

Great site as always, i love coming here

Posted by: Penis Enlargement at August 17, 2004 09:55 AM | PERMALINK

If this blog is rockn
don't come a knockn

Posted by: Pheromones at August 17, 2004 05:19 PM | PERMALINK

Great forum, really enjoyed reading some of the posts

Posted by: Web Position Gold 3 at August 22, 2004 04:46 PM | PERMALINK

Very interesting....

Posted by: Buy Buspar Online at August 22, 2004 05:54 PM | PERMALINK

I love your blog very interesting reading thank you :)

Posted by: Buy Diazepam Online at August 23, 2004 09:38 PM | PERMALINK

I love your site keep on rocking yeah!

Posted by: Alesse 28 at August 23, 2004 09:40 PM | PERMALINK

I agree

Posted by: Buspar at August 23, 2004 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

Love this site

Posted by: Buy Celebrex at August 23, 2004 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

Congrats on the nice design!

Posted by: Cheap Cialis at August 23, 2004 11:26 PM | PERMALINK

I agree

Posted by: Flextra 650 at August 24, 2004 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

Buy Cheapest Phentermine & Compare Legitimate Suppliers at a Glance, also, if you want to Order Cheap Phentermine from Top trusted Pharmacies, Go Now!! As well you can Buy more Cheapest Adipex, Phentermine, Xenical and other diet pills at Lightmeds. On the other hand you can experiment the World Business By Refinance Mortgage for More Home, More Loan, and More Value!

Posted by: Wolfy at August 24, 2004 06:08 AM | PERMALINK

I had the same thing happen not long ago

Posted by: Buy Fluoxetine at August 24, 2004 08:41 AM | PERMALINK

Love this site! Keep on the good work!

Posted by: Cheap Imitrex at August 24, 2004 09:28 AM | PERMALINK

LOL How ironic

Posted by: Levitra at August 24, 2004 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

Love this site! Keep on the good work! Ortho tricyclen

Posted by: Ortho-TriCyclen birth control at August 24, 2004 11:01 AM | PERMALINK

Interesting site some good reading thank you !

Posted by: Vicodin ES at August 25, 2004 09:35 PM | PERMALINK

I did enjoy reading through these posts, will come back and post something more interesting soon.

Posted by: Online Teen Porn Pictures at August 26, 2004 06:57 PM | PERMALINK
Navigation
Contribute to Calpundit



Advertising
Powered by
Movable Type 2.63

Site Meter