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February 11, 2004

"CLEANSING" THE FILES....Back in late 2001 Dave Moniz and Jim Drinkard of USA Today wrote a series of articles about "ghost soldiers," soldiers who were kept on National Guard rolls even though they were no longer attending drills or getting paid. One of their sources for the article was Lt. Colonel Bill Burkett, who had investigated this problem in the Texas National Guard several years previously.

Which is just a bit of background to show that Moniz and Drinkard have worked with Burkett before and feel comfortable that he's a reliable source. At any rate, comfortable enough to publish his allegations that George Bush's National Guard records were "cleansed" back in 1997:

As Texas Gov. George W. Bush prepared to run for president in the late 1990s, top-ranking Texas National Guard officers and Bush advisers discussed ways to limit the release of potentially embarrassing details from Bush's military records, a former senior officer of the Texas Guard said Wednesday.

A second former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, was told by a participant that commanders and Bush advisers were particularly worried about mentions in the records of arrests of Bush before he joined the National Guard in 1968, the second official said.

Bill Burkett, then a top adviser to the state Guard commander, said he overheard conversations in which superiors discussed "cleansing" the file of damaging information.

There's more.

Posted by Kevin Drum at February 11, 2004 09:41 PM | TrackBack


Comments

She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie...

Posted by: J.J. Cale at February 11, 2004 09:43 PM | PERMALINK

The plot thickens......

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 09:46 PM | PERMALINK

The clever bastards probably inserted the drawing of his teeth at the same time they were cleansing the rest of his records. "A conspiracy so immense..."

Posted by: rd at February 11, 2004 09:47 PM | PERMALINK

This article mentions a "second former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity" -- very significant.

Posted by: aReader at February 11, 2004 09:47 PM | PERMALINK

Prove that these people were actually on the base!
Release their records!
I want Burkett's DD-214!
I want eyewitnesses
Bill Burkett was actually AWOL at the time! He's a deserter!

*snicker*

OK, this story is OFFICIALLY BOGUS.

Hey, did you all see that Bob "Torch" Torricelli (now a big Kerry fundraiser) was a big player in those anti-Dean ads (the ones morphing Dean into Osama) in Iowa? Bwahahaha!

Posted by: Al at February 11, 2004 09:53 PM | PERMALINK

What is going on here?

W's handlers had to know that any document that showed he was in 'Bama in '73 conflicted with the "official" timeline. So why release it?

What is going on here?

Posted by: mkultra at February 11, 2004 09:54 PM | PERMALINK

OK, this story is OFFICIALLY BOGUS.

Translation: I'm FUCKING TERRIFIED!

Posted by: Old Hat at February 11, 2004 09:55 PM | PERMALINK

.....And when you see it in the distance,
You will wring your hands and moan....

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 09:56 PM | PERMALINK

Just an attempt to be helpful, a repost of what I said on Eschaton:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, on the Fortunate Son angle, where GHWB had to bail sonny out "while he was UN ambassador"...so, connect that with the KRT article saying he "moved to alabama in May 1972."

On May 26, 1972, GHWB, who was UN ambassador at the time, was scheduled to appear on Dick Cavett, but cancelled. This is from a NYT abstract from lexis. I know its a long shot, but if someone (Atrios?) is keeping tabs of leads...who knows, maybe GHWB gave Cavett's booker a phony excuse...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, more with the tinfoil...

Calpundit notes that the pay records confirm the length of W's absence in 1972 - April 17, 1972 to Oct 27, 1972.

What if he was busted in May, say, on or about May 26th...GHWB flies back to TX, slaps W around, says, youre gonna go to alabama, dry out working for my candidate friend, I'll fix it with the judge. W moves immediately, puts in the (later denied) transfer request shortly thereafter, per pop's instructions.

Just a thought...


Posted by: John at February 11, 2004 09:56 PM | PERMALINK

One major fact about bush's character is certainly substantiated by the article:

Bush is intensely devoted to those who go to bat for him.

Thus we see this tidbit about James:

"Burkett says that the state Guard commander, Maj. Gen. Daniel James III, discussed "cleansing" Bush's military files of embarrassing or incriminating documents in the summer of 1997."

Is followed later in the article by this juicy fact:

"As president, Bush has since elevated James to be director of the Air National Guard for the entire country."

That is bush behavior to a T.

I believe Burkett is telling the truth. And the truth is so disgusting it makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: -pea- at February 11, 2004 09:57 PM | PERMALINK

Here is my favorite part:

The meetings were confirmed in a 2002 interview by USA TODAY with William Leon, who was the state Guard's freedom-of-information officer in the 1990s. He was involved in discussions about what to release. Leon declined to comment on the substance of the meetings except to say, "We were making sure we released it properly and made sure we did it in a timely manner."

Contacted at home Wednesday night, he refused to talk to a reporter. He said: "Don't ever call me again at home. I'll call your publisher and sue you."

Posted by: spocko at February 11, 2004 09:57 PM | PERMALINK

Well, regardless of what happens, USAToday going with a story like that is important. If this all turns out to be hype, Moniz and Drinkard have to know they're asses will be shut down.

So, you figure they took that into account before running with this story.

God, I cannot believe USAToday had the stones to go with it.

It's really put it on the line time, isn't it?

I sure hope they're not wrong. And I feel sick if they are right.

Posted by: SamAm at February 11, 2004 09:58 PM | PERMALINK

*snicker*

OK, this story is OFFICIALLY BOGUS.

Hey, did you all see that Bob "Torch" Torricelli (now a big Kerry fundraiser) was a big player in those anti-Dean ads (the ones morphing Dean into Osama) in Iowa? Bwahahaha

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.". --Ghandi.

Posted by: Jim Faith at February 11, 2004 09:59 PM | PERMALINK

"What is going on here?

W's handlers had to know that any document that showed he was in 'Bama in '73 conflicted with the "official" timeline. So why release it?

What is going on here?"

It appears that they do NOT want to release the medical records, so they released the dental exam as proof that he was physicaly fit (which he was not)?

McClellan ducked the reporters repeated questions on whether he took a physical by saying "this is gutter politics" repeatedly. Would not even address the question!

By doing so they shot themselves in the foot due to the discrepancy in dates in the time line. They are sinking slowly into quicksand. The more they struggle, the more they sink?

But what is their alternative? The truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Posted by: Young Turk at February 11, 2004 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

Translation: I'm FUCKING TERRIFIED!

Translation: We're praying to God that this AWOL thing will catch on, because, heaven knows, with a jackass like Kerry, if we have to start talking about issues like national security, we're gonna get SLAUGHTERED in November!

Posted by: Al at February 11, 2004 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

And let me say, it really is more important to be factually correct than anything. More than partisan shots or points. There are no substitutes for the facts.

And "their," not "they're."

Posted by: SamAm at February 11, 2004 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

If you haven't read the whole USA Today article, DO IT NOW.

Kevin cites only the most tame parts.

Posted by: mkultra at February 11, 2004 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

It will become OFFICIALLY BOGUS when there is finally a consistent story that doesn't conflict with itself or the evidence. Until then it has legs and no amount of wishing or asserting will make it go away. The truth is that during Vietnam the president was stateside, getting paid and playing hooky like Steve Cohen. He applied for permission to move to Alabama, was denied, moved to Alabama anyway, and applied again. It appears at one point the people in Texas thought he was in Alabama, and the people in Alabama thought he was in Texas. And the whole time he was getting paid. This takes balls. During Vietnam, no less. Why isn't he bragging about it? He probably does, to his friends.

Posted by: MillionthMonkey at February 11, 2004 10:06 PM | PERMALINK

Defend Bush's National Security Policy, please.

Let's see...

"Invade 3rd world countries before they can attack us with weapons they do not have, revealing for the world that a: The CIA sucks, b: you don't need nukes to deter the US, RPGs, carbombs, and tenacity will do, and c: we're not interested in democracy for you, and in fact are trying really really hard to get the hell out before the election. Oh, and by the way, your oil belongs to us, and will only be processed in Haliburton built facilities."

Because that's what I see his national security policy as being. Hollow. A fraud.

If Bush wants to run on his failed NatSec policy, I welcome that argument.

Next.

Posted by: Monkey at February 11, 2004 10:07 PM | PERMALINK

Translation:

I saw Bush's speech today about containing future security threats and he stressed the importance of using our intelligence networks and diplomatic relations.

OK, This Bush Doctrine of pre-emption IS OFFICIALLY BOGUS.


Now we just sit and wait for the Republicans to start returning fire, and accuse Kerry of selling out the remaining MIA in Vietnam...

Posted by: Tuna at February 11, 2004 10:08 PM | PERMALINK

"return fire..." Similar to the rumors about McCain in SC in 2000, no doubt. Gutter politics, McClellan has the nerve to say.

Posted by: Linkmeister at February 11, 2004 10:11 PM | PERMALINK

In my view during the Vietnam war you did your duty if you supported the war by fighting in it, and if you objected to the war you did your duty by resisting it and fighting against it. The cowards were the ones who just ran away or who did what Bush did, go into the guard so that you could "maintain your political viability".

Being in combat isn't a measure of bravery. Rather the willingness to put yourself on the line for a cause is. Kerry did that TWICE, Bush ran away from that. If Bush didn't believe in the war he should have joined the anti-war movement like Clinton did. If he did believe in it he should have fought in it. He did neither. He did the safe thing. Safe physically and safe politically. And then, he couldn't even really be bothered to do that!

Posted by: SW at February 11, 2004 10:12 PM | PERMALINK

If your guy is trying to say that service in the Texas Air Guard was not a vehicle to avoid going to Vietnam, he is a lying stinking sack of shit and he knows it and if you have a shred of honesty in you, you know it as well.

Posted by: SW at February 11, 2004 10:14 PM | PERMALINK

The question isn't Vietnam. It is about the current "War on Terror" and its conduct. The question as it relates to Bush vs Kerry's Vietnam War experience is to suggest that one of these men is an "armchair warrior" who sends men to their deaths without exercising his duties in diplomacy.

The other is someone who's experience in combat causes him to view the commitmmet of American troops as a last resort, a failure of diplomacy, not a pre-ordained outcome supported by half truths and lies.

This is how the difference between Kerry and Bush's experience during the Vietnam War is relevant to the role of comander and chief in today's world.

Posted by: SW at February 11, 2004 10:16 PM | PERMALINK

Its not about the past its about the future and what your attitudes about committing American troops to combat imply about future behavior. I contend that George Bush's experience during the Vietnam conflict make it more likely that he will thoughtlessly commit American troops to combat. This is because he doesn't really know what combat is. Cowards are like that. They get real brave when it is somebody else's ass on the line.

Posted by: SW at February 11, 2004 10:17 PM | PERMALINK

From an interview on Democracy Now:

AMY GOODMAN: And what is Bath’s connection to the Bushes?

J. H. HATFIELD: Well he was also in the National Guard with George W. back in the 70’s which is interesting too because in 1972 in August, my publisher was able not too long ago to get hold of Bush’s national guard records. And in 1972, at the same time we alleged he was doing community service for cocaine arrest James Bath who was in the unit with him. Both of them were grounded for failing to show up for medical exam. 14:19...

AMY GOODMAN: Now how do you know he got arrested for cocaine?

J. H. HATFIELD: Because we have three sources in the book. Three confidential sources but nevertheless they’re close friends of Bush, they’ve been close friends for many years, all the way back to when he was a boy. And there were also sources that I used consistently through the book and other stuff that they’ve told me about was corroborated by secondary and third sources.

AMY GOODMAN: And what exactly did they say?

J. H. HATFIELD: Basically, essentially, the same thing each one of them. And I was very careful not to lead the other one on, and say “ok here’s the story here’s what the other person told me”. I would ask is it true about the cocaine in 1972 and they would tell me the story.

AMY GOODMAN: And what’s the story that they told you?

J. H. HATFIELD: That he was picked up. That he was taken to jail. He called his father of course. His father at the time was UN ambassador. There is some conflicting stories I have on whether he was actually in town in Houston at time or whether he was in New York. But the truth is, what they all say is that he contacted the judge that was gonna handle the case and he said look “I’m a benefactor of Project Pool, I support them. I’ll make sure George W does his time there in community service,’” and the judge let him out of there. And that’s where he spent the next year. 15:59

Posted by: patriotboy at February 11, 2004 10:18 PM | PERMALINK

Prediction, George W. Bush will be the first ex-president featured on "The Surreal Life."

Posted by: David Johnson at February 11, 2004 10:21 PM | PERMALINK

From Atrios, the bottom line in the "This is meaningless!" debate:

Lawrence Korb, a former assistant secretary of defense for personnel and a Navy flier in Vietnam, said a pilot losing his flight status was a serious matter.

"We spent $1 million to train him to fly," Korb said. "You're supposed to be ready to fly if we need you. If you didn't show up for your flight physical, good heavens!"

Not only that, but he blatantly lied in his book and said that he flew for all 6 years, when even the White House admits he was grounded.

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 11, 2004 10:22 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, what a tangled web we weave........

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 10:24 PM | PERMALINK

It sure is funny to see scott mcclellan twisting in the wind on this one. "Gutter politics"? If that's the best he can come up with, they'd better have something truly damning on John Kerry's career. Waving a photo with Fonda and the VVAW that predates her visit with the NVA by two years simply won't cut it.

McClellan's no Fleischer, that's for sure. Ari would have constructed a beautiful mosaic of junior's rich cultural experience in the Alabama guard, he would have rattled on for three or four minutes and fed so much bullshit to the journalists they wouldn't know what was relevant. McClellan's trying to stonewall by obviously not answering questions, which is just so much blood in the water to a pack of scoop-hungry journalists. I love the way he tries to shame them into compliance, doesn't he know that one prerequisite for a successful journalism career is having no sense of shame? In that respect, Scotty should recognize kindred souls when he sees them.

Yep, letting go of Fleischer sure was a stupid move, he could have gladhanded this AWOL thing away. Rove must be grinding his teeth at every press briefing these days.

Posted by: 0rganism at February 11, 2004 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

well, if nothing else the conflicting evidence and unsubstantiated claims (on both sides) makes it clear that this issue needs to be cleared up.

Right Mr president?

Bush: "yeah, absolutely."


Above all it seems to me that Mr. Bush has forfeited his claim to being a "straight talking" everyman who is going to bring honesty and integrity to the White House (because he is outside the corrupt D.C. establishment).

Instead, he has confirmed for everyone that he is more of an "insider" than anyone, who plays dirty politics, is unafraid to boldly pay off supporters with cushy titles, and is in bed with the most corrupt special interests.

Unless all these Trolls are from the top 1% of the USA's income levels, they are only hurting themselves by supporting Bush's fiasco of a presidency.

Posted by: chica toxica at February 11, 2004 10:28 PM | PERMALINK

For better or for worse, the blood is definitely in the water now.

Posted by: Anarch at February 11, 2004 10:29 PM | PERMALINK

I can't understand how our trolling friends can't really find this a facinating little puzzle. The little drips and drabs from the White House seem to just act as catylist to a freaky chemical reaction.

Speaking of freaky chemicals, exactly why did our young President-to-be skip his phisical, the one he needed to fly jets like he so bravely did last year?

Ah, well. I'm sure the fact that young Kerry was photographed sitting just a few rows behind Hanoi Jane at an anti-war rally proves that he was commie scum, much more than young Bush, even though Kerry fought in Nam and Bush partied, stole wreaths, drank and drive, and, you know, *sniff, sniff*...

Posted by: BatGuano at February 11, 2004 10:32 PM | PERMALINK

BatGuano, I don't get it either.

What's wrong with trying to find all the facts of a story? Perhaps the 'Wingers have a strong "lalala I can't hear you!" reflex.

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 11, 2004 10:39 PM | PERMALINK

My prediction: George W. Bush will be on every "worst President" list for the next 100 years.

Posted by: grytpype at February 11, 2004 10:40 PM | PERMALINK

The possible destruction of and tampering with legal documents and procedings against Bush Jr may extend further then just his service or lack there of. There are also some witnesses that claim Bush was arrested for possession of cocaine in 1972 in Texas, most likely in late November or December after his stint in Alabama. Bush was allowed to perform community service in 1973 by working for a minority children's program in Houston, Professionals United for Leadership League (PULL), chaired by his father. This volunteer deal was was considered a political plus for the kids of wealthy parents; something they could slap on their resume. According to one source,"The record of that arrest was expunged, meaning he apparently received the
equivalent of Youthful Offender status at the age of 26." It's not just Jr, but Sr who has played a part in covering things up for years, possible federal crimes have been committed by both.
do the terms "special treatment", "above the law", "elitism", "chickenhawk" come to mind.

Posted by: Yorktown at February 11, 2004 10:42 PM | PERMALINK

This is another example of USA Today actually having a better story than any single member of the so-called leading stories. Who would have thought we would have come to the day when the New York Times, Washington Post, La Times, Wall Street Journal would be regularly be outreported by the McPaper. Talk about taking a dive.

Posted by: Aeolus at February 11, 2004 10:44 PM | PERMALINK

For those of you who enjoyed Burkett's story in USA Today, I'd also recommend this companion article he wrote himself in March of last year. Here's a teaser:

We must now revert to the history of Europe to discern what to do. We must study the nemesis of France and how Napoleon was felled before understanding the damage a tyrant does to a nation and society. We must examine the ruthless and dictatorial rise of yet another of the three small men -- one whose name is not spoken out of fear of reprisal, but his name was Adolf. We must examine history, in order to not repeat it, and to understand the mesmerism of a public to a murderous scheme. Three small men who wanted to conquer . . . and vanquish. Each created a need for a balancing throng; history then recorded the damage from a far better perspective.

I mean, really, if you can't trust someone who explicitly compares Bush to Hitler to tell you the truth about Bush, who can you trust?
</sarcasm>

Seriously, though, isn't there some version of Godwin's Law that kicks in when you're down to Bush=Hitler types as your reliable sources?

Posted by: Shad at February 11, 2004 10:44 PM | PERMALINK

SW:

Being in combat isn't a measure of bravery. Rather the willingness to put yourself on the line for a cause is. Kerry did that TWICE, Bush ran away from that.

Yep.

And there is a far deeper emotional undercurrent at work here.

Kerry's victory is going to be the moment when America finally comes full circle on Vietnam.

There are some very powerful vibes at work here.

Via a man who was both a warrior and a peacenik, America is finally going to heal the wound that is Vietnam.

Yes it is healing time: where those who fought and those who fought in protest will be reunited as two sides of the same heroic coin.

It is a simple, deep, primitive urge to heal and mend. Nothing can be done to stop it. We are on a downhill slide to that November truth.


[Aside: And that my friends is why bush's Guard record is being so intensely perused. Clearly, he is the fly in the ointment. He is out of touch with where American is now trending.]

Posted by: -pea- at February 11, 2004 10:45 PM | PERMALINK

Lesson: don't fuck with Jane Fonda when Ted Turner's paper has your ass in lockdown.

Posted by: praktike at February 11, 2004 10:46 PM | PERMALINK

Shad, please fill in the gaps for W. He needs your help.

Posted by: patriotboy at February 11, 2004 10:46 PM | PERMALINK

I don't pretend to understand the complexities of this affair, nor do I know if Bush was technically AWOL or not.

One thing I do understand is that that little piece of shit who poses as commander-in-chief and prances around in uniform barely served his country, at best. He is a weasel and a coward, whose actions spit in the face of the military, and that has become clearly obvious.

Posted by: Lupin at February 11, 2004 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

btw, USA Today is a very under-rated paper, in my opinion. I link to their stuff all the time.

Posted by: praktike at February 11, 2004 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

Shad is silent

Posted by: patriotboy at February 11, 2004 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Lord knows that nothing could ever possibly resemble the rise of Nazism in any way.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 11, 2004 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

Looks like you and the media are going to ride this one all the way down to the ground. Sure, Burkett is telling the truth and all the other Guardsmen are lying. A few posts ago you had problems with some odd spots in Burkett's story yourself. What changed, factually? Or is it enough now for you that Moniz and Drinkard believe him? Or at least find his story politically useful?

Have you been just ignoring the new information that has been hitting the press for the past few days? Interviews with Turnipseed, the letter from a fellow Guardsman, and the rest?

Or do you just want so damn bad for it to be true?

Posted by: tbrosz at February 11, 2004 10:54 PM | PERMALINK

Well, now that enough documentation has been released to establish that Bush was neither AWOL nor refusing orders, now the records were either whitewashed, forged or inaccurate?

The pay records don't prove he was there? Well, if he hadn't gotten paid for being there I bet you'd treat that as incontrovertable proof that he hadn't been there at all. Kevin and commentators, your standards of proof seem to depend entirely on what conclusion you wish to reach.

On another but related note, could some non-tinfoil lefties please offer up some suggestions for major left-of-center blogs that don't generally engage in shrillness, Bush=Hitler, or conspiracy-theory mongering?

I already know about Talkleft and Armed Liberal, so you don't need to mention them, but I'm not certain they are actually considered left-of-center nowadays.

Thanks in advance,

Ryan Waxx (looking for opposing, but sane, viewpoints)

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 11, 2004 10:56 PM | PERMALINK

Organism: I think Ari got the hell out because he was smart enough to see that things were about to fall apart. Sure enough, the press response has been pretty much all downhill since he left. The few little whispers of negative stories back then are now turning into an all-negative all-the-time media feeding frenzy. Not before time, either.

But if you look back, the shark was jumped right about the time Fleischer left.

Posted by: Canadian Reader at February 11, 2004 10:56 PM | PERMALINK

Organism:

McClellan's no Fleischer, that's for sure. Ari would have constructed a beautiful mosaic of junior's rich cultural experience in the Alabama guard, he would have rattled on for three or four minutes and fed so much bullshit to the journalists they wouldn't know what was relevant.

True and yet...I don't think even Ari has enough fingers to plug these imploding dikes.

We are witnessing something of a higher magnitude.

The words of mass deception, the mounting deficit, the joblessness...it has all become too heavy to levitate and spin.

We are in the endgame...and the sky is falling on this administration.

Posted by: -pea- at February 11, 2004 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

A little test for the Bushites:

Tell us your views on the various Clinton "scandals".

Posted by: thomas at February 11, 2004 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz:

We are going to scrub the WH down with bleach when the draft dodger leaves town. You are invited.

Posted by: spotted dog at February 11, 2004 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

While plenty of Bush defenders (and a few less partisan observers) keep pointing out that this whole thing is rather a molehill, it's instructive to consider the administration's gross incompetence in controlling it. This is exactly the kind of story that could have been squelched in the early stages by a simple statement from Bush that, yes, those were the days of his misspent youth when he did things he wasn't proud of. He could have followed that with a touching comment about the love and support of his good wife, his personal relationship with Jesus, and his decision to give up booze (but no mention of cocaine because people need not be reminded of that). End of story, trying not to smirk.

Instead, the White House does all this ducking and weaving, the story has legs now, and its fundamental triviality has been transformed into an emblem of the administration's masterful ability to screw up.

Posted by: TonyB at February 11, 2004 10:58 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin: for those of us trying to follow along at home, do you know of any place where we can find the continually-revised timeline? Especially one where the dates and times are sourced? I can't keep track of who said what any more...

Posted by: Anarch at February 11, 2004 10:59 PM | PERMALINK

Shad speculates:
> isn't there some version of Godwin's Law that
> kicks in when you're down to Bush=Hitler types
> as your reliable sources?

Nope, not outside of Usenet there isn't.

That isn't to say the comparison is apt, in the current context. You gotta consider that Hitler did his stint in the WW1 Wermacht, even landed himself an Iron Cross, IIRC. Might have been better for the world if he'd been an AWOL chickenshit like bush, but it's way too late for that now.

Posted by: 0rganism at February 11, 2004 10:59 PM | PERMALINK

chica toxica

Unless all these Trolls are from the top 1% of the USA's income levels, they are only hurting themselves by supporting Bush's fiasco of a presidency.

Well said! I think about this all the time. Maybe they had a taste of money in the 90's and think they are part of that world.

But lying about money never really bothers the republicans as much as anything to do with sex. Drugs are bad, but they aren't as bad as sex. You have to see what freaked them out about Clinton the most to see what they really believe. Those that said, "It's not about the sex, it's the lying." do you suppose they will be saying the same thing when it is proved that Bush lied?

Actually I think that the administration is doing its best to make it so Bush himself won't be caught in an out and out lie. Others will take the hit (like the CIA is now, like the people working for Roveor Cheney will on the Plame affair). They will play word games with it suits them and then call people on playing word games when it doesn't. (e.g. Rummy saying "I never said that!" because he didn't say the exact words the reporter said (although he said something almost exactly like that). Using the phrase Grave and gathering instead of the I-word. Then when he is pinned down on Russet he said, "I think, if I might remind you that in my language I called it a grave and gathering threat, but I don't want to get into word contests."

Posted by: spocko at February 11, 2004 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

I think there is something to all this (witness the WH's idiotic reaction).

But I also think Burkett is probably not telling to whole truth. What can I say? I don't think you put very many chips on the guy. He's very likely one of those Sullivan letter writer types.

Or maybe he's a genuine Fox Mulder. But, what's the term of art? The signal to noise ratio with this guy seems too high. I simply don't trust him, and I hate to see the matter get lashed to his word.

Posted by: SamAm at February 11, 2004 11:03 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin sez,

"There's more."

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 11:04 PM | PERMALINK

for those of us trying to follow along at home, do you know of any place where we can find the continually-revised timeline?

Good question Anarch, I was wondering the same thing myself...

Posted by: forgetting at February 11, 2004 11:06 PM | PERMALINK

Just read the comments and it seems Kevin is becoming the new Eschaton for the trolls. They sit around hitting the refresh button waiting for him to post now. Maybe he ought to sell some Snapple or something since he has all these ditto-heads hanging out at his sight.

Posted by: Mario at February 11, 2004 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

Someday I'll be able to tell my kids that I used to read Calpundit BEFORE he started to play a role in bringing down the evil Bush regime by his relentless reporting on AWOL documents (when he--Calpundit--was mostly famous for creating the fad of Friday Cat Blogging).

Posted by: PanJack at February 11, 2004 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

I got a question, if the Republican party is the party pledged against wasteful government spending and welfare, shouldn't Bush, in all good conscience, return the money he was paid if it turns out he was a no show?

Posted by: forgetting at February 11, 2004 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

1. We now have Col. Burkett in the US media. backed up by notes and people he talked to at the time, saying he heard Bush's people discussing cleaning the files and saw them discarding some. The guys who call Burkett bogus were promoted by Bush despite incompetence. One was the General who cut down the number of planes on alert in the US from over 100 to less than 20 - who let a 15-minute hijack interception time go to over an hour on 9/11.

2. We have another sergeant on Mabry TX AFB who says he heard about and saw Bush records being destroyed.

3. We have the payroll and retirement records released by the White House which show a different story than the White House is trying to desperately spin. Bush had only 9 days of active duty in 1972. This is below the required 15 days but may be given an OK if due to special circumstances.

4. The inactive duty days from those records show an odd history - there is no record for the 3rd quarter where he was denied a transfer to Alabama but went anyway. There is a record for the 4th quarter where he got a transfer for an Alabama unit but it shows no days. With his last day being an inactive training day on April 16, 1972 Bush is past the RED ZONE - reserve nomenclature for a non-participant (AWOL) due to his not reporting for over seven months. This pay record is one way commanders spot this.

The first quarter of 1973 in addition to showing first quarter days also now retroactively shows Oct. 28, 29 and Nov. 11-14 1972 as IDT (inactive duty training) days. Did someone pull his butt out of the fire or were his records lost for awhile?

5. The Bush military biography obtained by a FOI request shows Dates of Service of 27 May 1968 to 21 November 1974. The past duty assignments and dates matches everything we know about his service except showing no Alabama. That is perhaps possible if he was kept on the Ellington rooster. The only problem is the end date. When he was at Harvard he was also in the ORS for twelve months, not six. His military service lasted an addition six months from his original enlistment but the extra time was simply being subject to call up if needed.

6. One possible very light punishment for a serious goof-off in the national guard is to extend his service and make him available if needed for regular active duty. Normal punishment is simply to place him in jail or on active duty.

The very strong implication is he went AWOL and they covered his ass but stuck six months onto his service. I could be wrong, maybe he screwed up some other way. Maybe this week his friends will discover all kinds of documents and friends from service and these records must be paperwork errors.

#1 on Google for Liberal News

Posted by: Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest at February 11, 2004 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

Can someone explain to me the purpose of having a message thread on a blog? Is it to get people more committed to being in a place? It just seems that only a small fraction of visitors actually engage in the message threads.

When they're open like this, they all seem to have trouble with devolving into little battles.

It would be nice if someone could clarify the whole idea.

Posted by: thomas at February 11, 2004 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

Looks like you and the media are going to ride this one all the way down to the ground.

(Also see: Please stop. Please. Think of the children, the children! Won't someone please think of the children!)

Interviews with Turnipseed, the letter from a fellow Guardsman, and the rest.
(Sing along: With Gilliagn, the Skipper too. A millionaire and his wife, a movie star and the rest...)

I read the fellow Guardsmans letter. It ain't proof. What else ya got? There are still the notations IN HIS FILE from the Commander's at the time.
(I kinda want to say, "Bring it On", but I believe that phrase is trademarked by the George W. Bush dynasty and I don't want to get sued or smeared.)

Posted by: spocko at February 11, 2004 11:19 PM | PERMALINK

This is the best you guys have? Missing national guard paperwork from the early 70's? Yer kiddin', right? At least the VRWC after Clinton had MENA,black helicopters and Vince Foster getting offed by Hillary but this is the best you can do? How very sad.

Posted by: gavin at February 11, 2004 11:19 PM | PERMALINK

You are right thomas,

Maybe it should be REGULATED?

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 11:20 PM | PERMALINK

Thomas:

The reasoning behind message boards is that battles over ideas are a GOOD thing. Also, new sources of information can be introduced, for or against the blogged viewpoint.

Unfortuately, thoughtful battles over ideas and serious consideration of new information don't happen all that often on (anyone's) comments, rather devolving to groups of people choosing to believe exactly what they believed before the discussion started, dismissing contradictory information.

Its value to you depends on what use you make of it. For determining "the one universal truth", its not very good. But for exposing what particular lines of argument are easily rebutted, its near invaluable.

I hope this answers your question. Oh, and are there any suggestions for me re: my eariler request?

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 11, 2004 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

gavin remarks:
> This is the best you guys have?

Jebus, no! This is just the funniest and most entertaining bit! There's mountains and mountains of crap this administration has pulled, ranging from public lies about weapons stashes in Iraq to treasonous outings of CIA operatives, from Halliburton quid-pro-quos to the Cheney-Scalia hunting trip improprieties. This stuff has tons of substance, unlike the VRWC allegations, but unfortunately it's sufficiently complicated and contemporary to be unfunny and disturbingly real.

So we'll go with this until it gets boring. Okay with you?

Posted by: 0rganism at February 11, 2004 11:29 PM | PERMALINK

"the purpose of having a message thread on a blog?"

A public service if you ask me. Everybody likes to have their say and let off a little steam. I like blogs that don't have them too. Tbogg(the king of snark which is a good reason not to have one) and Tapped come to mind though I'm no big fan of Matthew Yglesias. But they definitely increase readership and are interesting to read by themselves I think. Some Freeper threads are great fun to read though I can't post(ex. any thread they have on Limbaugh's problems).

(previous post "sight" should have site:)

Posted by: Mario at February 11, 2004 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

Ryan Waxx,

In answer to your question,

You are a troll.
No more, no less.
(Well, maybe less)

Go back to freeperville and "devolve."

Because nobody here gives a rat's ass what you think.

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

Mac:

Do you actually know what a 'troll' is?

Free Bonus Hint: "Someone who disagrees with me" is not the right answer.

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 11, 2004 11:36 PM | PERMALINK

Much as I hate to do this, I must. TonyB wrote:

This is exactly the kind of story that could have been squelched in the early stages by a simple statement from Bush that, yes, those were the days of his misspent youth when he did things he wasn't proud of.

That did sort of work for Clinton, but his base was liberal. Forgive & forget. There but for the grace of God go I. The other side continued to take issue with it.

[Snicker]

Posted by: bad Jim at February 11, 2004 11:38 PM | PERMALINK

The pay records don't prove he was there? Well, if he hadn't gotten paid for being there I bet you'd treat that as incontrovertable proof that he hadn't been there at all. Kevin and commentators, your standards of proof seem to depend entirely on what conclusion you wish to reach.

Wow, what an illogical person. Yes, if there were no pay records at all that would be incontrovertible proof. The existence of pay records, OTOH, is not incontrovertible proof the other way. They are a necessary piece of evidence for establishing his presence, but not a sufficient piece of evidence for doing so. Pay records were never meant to certify anything, like whether someone was actually working. While all soldiers who lack pay records were probably not performing Guard duty, having pay records doesn't automatically mean you were working.

You are essentially claiming that his performing his duty and not getting paid for it would be just as plausible as his not performing his duty and getting paid for it. We already have an example from the latter category- Richard Cohen has confessed to contemporaneously playing hooky and being paid for his Guard service. Nobody has come forth from the former category- claiming that they did Guard service for free. The U.S. has abolished slavery, and although the U.S. Armed Forces doesn't pay its employees much, if they do service, a pay record exists. So your argument is demonstrably stupid.

Posted by: MillionthMonkey at February 11, 2004 11:39 PM | PERMALINK

"Well, now that enough documentation has been released to establish that Bush was neither AWOL nor refusing orders, now the records were either whitewashed, forged or inaccurate?"

Yeah, pretty much a troll.

Idiot.

Posted by: mac at February 11, 2004 11:41 PM | PERMALINK

Calpundit has been flypaper for trolls for weeks. The crew at Atrios drove away all but the most obnoxious trolls, and it appears that the host there has implemented pest eradication technology program related activities.

For the moment, this is the best place for fresh trolls, who insist, over and over and over and over, this is a dead issue.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 11, 2004 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder how much longer before the offical line becomes "he was undercover doing intelligence gathering for reasons of national security"

creative story developers are Bush Handlers, Inc.

"...playin with matches in a pool of gasoline..." - Swamp Mama Johnson

Posted by: daCascadian at February 11, 2004 11:51 PM | PERMALINK

Basically OT here...

Ryan Waxx: On another but related note, could some non-tinfoil lefties please offer up some suggestions for major left-of-center blogs that don't generally engage in shrillness, Bush=Hitler, or conspiracy-theory mongering?

You'll need to clarify two points to get a really good answer:

1) Do you care whether the comments are free of such things, or only the main poster? If you're only interested in lurking, there are a number that come to mind... but see the next question.

2) While "Bush=Hitler"-mongering is fairly easy to identify, I'm not sure what you mean by "shrillness" or "conspiracy-mongering". I would argue that Brad DeLong, for example, doesn't really engage in either. The crux is that although he makes many arguments that were labelled "shrill" when Paul Krugman made them and one could, I suppose, construe some of what he says as "conspiracy-mongering", he's got the chops to justify what he's saying. YMMV.

[Oh, and I'd be a little careful in saying you want "sane" discourse when dismissing "shrill" viewpoints. I think I know what you mean, but there's a real chance of misinterpretation.]

Regardless, the blogs that I can think of offhand that are indubitably worth reading are:

* Body and Soul, by Jeanne d'Arc. A truly lefty blog, in the best sense of the word, with some of the best writing on the net.
* Orcinus, by Dave Neiwert. Not really a lefty blog qua lefty blog, but I have a feeling you'd likely categorize it as such. His stock and trade is "conspiracy-mongering" in the honorable sense of the word, and his research tends to be very good. Might make your toes curl upon first read, but stick with it; it'll be well worth the rewards.
[BTW: Kevin, is there a reason why Orcinus isn't on your blog roll?]
* Pandagon, by Jesse Taylor and Ezra Klein. Snarkilicious lefty goodness.
* Talking Points Memo, Josh Marshall's weblog, is always worth the read. Given that he, like Dave Neiwert, is an actual reporter you might regard some of his posts as being "conspiracy-mongering", but I'd disagree -- he's not always right, but he's got a better grip on how this stuff works than most.
* Slacktivist is an excellent site, and is worth reading solely for the take-down of the Left Behind series.
* Speaking of take-downs, Brad DeLong's website by, uh, Brad DeLong, is worth reading. It's been a little sparse of late -- mainly dittoing -- but you won't find a better analysis of the Bush budget at ready access.
* Crooked Timber's got the highest academic firepower of any blog I know, save maybe the Volokh conspiracy, even if the comment threads occasionally defray.
* I really like Philosoraptor. Winston Smith's counter-post to the famous DuToit screed was, I think, one of the absolute best, and I've been digging him ever since.
* Finally, I'd recommend Obsidian Wings. It's not a lefty blog by any stretch -- certainly not now that Katherine's gone -- but von and Moe consistently churn out good stuff, and will hopefully find a worthy successor to Katherine. In the meantime, you get a gamut of commentators and the Terrible Twosome are really good about keeping the discussion lively-yet-civil.

There are numerous others, of course, but that ought to get the ball rolling.

PS: I'd say both TalkLeft and Armed Liberal are "lefty blogs", although AL is closer to the center than most. As always, YMMV.

PPS: If you're not comfortable diving directly into the deep end of lefty blogdom, the comment threads of Tacitus are a good place to mix it up with some of the better lefty commenters. There are the occasional loons, of course, but you'll have the massed firepower of Tac's conservative bloc at your back should you need it... or not.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Booyah!

Posted by: Anarch at February 11, 2004 11:54 PM | PERMALINK

Go back to freeperville and "devolve." Because nobody here gives a rat's ass what you think.

God, would you guys please cut this junior high school shit out? Some of us who have been regulars here for a very long time are actually interested in getting to the bottom of all of this and skeptics are a necessary part of that process. Namecalling, however, doesn't move anything forward one inch. It is neither clever nor entertaining. These comment threads are a long slog already without all the simian-style feces flinging. If the above is the most substantive comment you can make, then it isn't the object of your post that is doing the trolling.

And feel free to call me a troll, too, but you'll just be making yourself look even more uninformed.

Posted by: apostropher at February 11, 2004 11:55 PM | PERMALINK

And feel free to call me a troll, too, but you'll just be making yourself look even more uninformed.

A troll? I've flamed trolls, I've insulted trolls, I've even been friends with trolls... and you, sir, are no troll!

;)

Posted by: Anarch at February 12, 2004 12:01 AM | PERMALINK

Might have been better for the world if he'd been an AWOL chickenshit like bush, but it's way too late for that now.

Never forget that the Nazi's rose to power by winning democratic elections, and that Hitler was appointed Chancellor by a democratically elected president.

he was undercover doing intelligence gathering for reasons of national security

Maybe it's the truth, and when they are forced to reveal it, that will wipe out any chance that the Plame scandal has of sticking to him.

Posted by: Boronx at February 12, 2004 12:14 AM | PERMALINK

Republicans (whose motto is lets throw a bunch of shit and see what sticks) say this is gutter politics while at the same time they're working overtime trying to dig up dirt on Kerry(see Kerry and Fonda teamed up in Detroit to slander U.S. troops. Well right back at you guys, and we haven't even started on Cheney's "war" record yet.

Posted by: Mario at February 12, 2004 12:18 AM | PERMALINK

Forgive the delay. Getting blogspot to cough up archives takes time, bribe money, and vital sections of your anatomy.

Millionthmonkey, you are indeed correct to establish the importance of classifying evidence as either necessary or sufficient. I suggest other commentators pay as much attention to this distinction as you have. But I'm afraid you don't correctly evaluate the evidence to put it into the proper bin.

You are essentially claiming that his performing his duty and not getting paid for it would be just as plausible as his not performing his duty and getting paid for it.

Actually, I'm claiming that it's self-evident that 'performing his duty and not getting paid for it' is more plausable than 'not performing his duty and getting paid for it'.

Get serious: How many employers, the government included, orients their individual payroll so that overpayment is more likely than underpayment? The military has a record of overpaying its CONTRACTORS, not its SOLDIERS. Big difference.

I'll assume your 'overpayment' example is valid. Allow me to present a counterexample.

I won't pretend my example singlehandedly proves how likely underpayment is, if you do likewise for your example re: overpayment. Deal?

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 12:27 AM | PERMALINK

Anarch-There's a link of the timeline you were asking about earlier over at Slate, under the Yeoman section.

As for all the sniping, I think its kind of funny, but I've only been reading blogs for (let's see, a week and a half or so). Maybe after a while it'll get old. As for now I'm content to grin and bear it.

Plus, I'm getting the valuable experience of watching a blog somehow influence the media (and don't ask me how). Maybe the added satisfaction of seeing a man I've long felt a poser getting some just scrutiny. Anyway, this is a record length post for me. blah blah blah

Posted by: forgetting at February 12, 2004 12:36 AM | PERMALINK

I recall seeing footage of an old military film that seems to capture what has happened to the WH on in the last couple of weeks.

In the film, there are a group of soldiers grabbing ropes dangling from a blmp or large balloon, trying to land it and tie it off, or perhaps launch it. At some point, all of the soldiers let go of the ropes except one guy, and he quickly starts rising with the balloon, holding onto the rope. He had about a two second window to let go before he rose too high to be able to let go without being killed from the fall. And he kept rising until he could hold on no longer, and then dropped to his death. It was chilling footage I will never forget.

Bush may have a small window of time left to come clean on his NG record/service before it will be too late for him to do so (or maybe it's too late already). He is still grasping the lies, believing initially that he had himself sufficiently covered, they worked so well the last 3 times. But by the time he realizes(ed) that the lies will not hold the story back this time, it's too late to let go of them. The fall would kill him.

I think the turth is going to come out one way or another on this, and bush will be finished. His approval ratings will never break 50% again.
The funny thing is, none of this would have happened if they had not been so desperate that they put the shrub on MTP as the WAR PRESIDENT. In a moment reminiscent of his "bring 'em on" moment, he boldly agreed to open his file totally to prove these viscious rumors untrue. Once you make a promise like that on national TV, and then stonewall and refuse to carry through, you're history. It's like running away from a hungry pack of wild dogs with a napsack full of fresh killed meat. They're not going to quit till they get their chops on that meat.

Posted by: obe at February 12, 2004 12:38 AM | PERMALINK

Anarch:

Thank you for taking my request seriously, the links you provided are really enough in and of themselves.

To answer your questions:

1) Only the blogger, really. I prefer unmoderated comments, despite the price of getting the occasional loon.

2) I don't really have a hard-and-fast definition for those terms, since they can be subjective. I was basically asking for your best judgement. I know that one man's sane can be another man's shrill, to paraphrase rueters' famous dictum on terrorism, but sometimes the answer is pretty clear.

To give a personal example, I consider the AWOL discussion 'shrill' and 'conspiracy-mongering' given the fact that going AWOL, disobeying lawful orders and doctoring records are serious charges of serious crimes, for which I would expect serious proof. And if what's been presented was actually serious proof, where are the police and the special investigators? The impeachment? The revocation of honorable discharge?

I'm sorry if I ruffle a few feathers with that definition, but certainly you realize that if these accusations go mainstream, the public is going to expect some proof from those who bear the burden of proof, not a bunch of sinister maybe's.

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 12:50 AM | PERMALINK

The most best AWOL article yet :

President Bush's August 1972 suspension from flight status in the Texas Air National Guard -- triggered by his failure to take a required annual flight physical -- should have prompted an investigation by his commander, a written acknowledgement by Bush, and perhaps a written report to senior Air Force officials, according to Air Force regulations in effect at the time.[...]

Two retired National Guard generals, in interviews yesterday, said they were surprised that Bush -- or any military pilot -- would forgo a required annual flight physical and take no apparent steps to rectify the problem and return to flying. "There is no excuse for that. Aviators just don't miss their flight physicals," said Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard, in an interview.

Brigadier General David L. McGinnis, a former top aide to the assistant secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs, said in an interview that Bush's failure to remain on flying status amounts to a violation of the signed pledge by Bush that he would fly for at least five years after he completed flight school in November 1969.

"Failure to take your flight physical is like a failure to show up for duty. It is an obligation you can't blow off," McGinnis said.[...]

McGinnis said he, too, thought it possible that Bush's superiors considered him a liability, so they decided "to get him off the books, make his father happy, and hope no one would notice."

But McGinnis said there should have been an investigation and a report. "If it didn't happen, that shows how far they were willing to stretch the rules to accommodate" then-Lieutenant Bush.


Posted by: Reader of blogs at February 12, 2004 12:51 AM | PERMALINK

Sorry. My comment should have read best not most best.

Posted by: Reader of blogs at February 12, 2004 12:53 AM | PERMALINK

Rereading my last post, I think I need to clarify:

My example (of my considering the AWOL thread 'shrill' and 'conspiracy-mongering') was intended as an example of YMMV, that is to say it is an example of something that I would consider shrill, and that you would likely consider sane.

Now back to your reguarly scheduled program...

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 12:59 AM | PERMALINK

Actually, I'm claiming that it's self-evident that 'performing his duty and not getting paid for it' is more plausable than 'not performing his duty and getting paid for it'.
Get serious: How many employers, the government included, orients their individual payroll so that overpayment is more likely than underpayment? The military has a record of overpaying its CONTRACTORS, not its SOLDIERS. Big difference.

Argument from incredulity. Enough said about this.

I won't pretend my example singlehandedly proves how likely underpayment is, if you do likewise for your example re: overpayment. Deal?

Fine. Although this is irrelevant; the likeliness of these things happening isn't as important as their plausibility. If it's plausible that Bush might be able to produce pay records, despite not having showing up for his Guard duty, it means that his producing pay receipts is not proof of his Guard duty.

What you basically did in your parent post was insinuate that we should take the pay receipts as proof and be satisfied. You did this by arguing that if there were no pay records for Bush to produce, his opponents would claim it to be proof of his failure to serve. You have now shown that the Democrats would not have met their burden of proof if they did say that. This is a statement about an alternate reality, and might have political ramifications in that reality. In this universe the pay records were produced and no Democrat made any claims about their absence implying anything (even though they might reasonably be entitled to). This is just words placed in the mouths of Democrats by your conjecture, so the point is moot. And my point remains, that the presence of the pay records does not constitute proof of George's service as you were insinuating.

Posted by: MillionthMonkey at February 12, 2004 01:15 AM | PERMALINK

Hooray for Pea!

"There are some very powerful vibes at work here."

Very, very, very good. Very good indeed. Perfect cosmological/sociological/historical overview. Way to go, man (?).

Damn. Wish I'd said all that stuff.

Posted by: John H. Farr at February 12, 2004 01:15 AM | PERMALINK

According to the documents that were originally released, the 187th Tac Recon Group that Bush was supposed to take his "equivalent training" with held their "Unit Training Assemblies" only once a month.

Bush was denied his original Alabama request, because the unit he wanted to sign up with did not provide the "Ready Reserve" training he was supposed to get.

Bush missed both of the "Unit Training Assemblies" for the 187th Tac Recon Group that he was ordered to attend (Oct 7-8, and Nov 4-5).

If he did show up at Danelly on Oct 28-29, and Nov 11-14, it could NOT have been to take part in the "Equivalent Training" that was required of Bush.

Being in the National Guard consists of more than showing up at a military base whenever you feel like it, and doing some busy-work. Nor does it consist of showing up for a dental examination and getting paid for doing so---which is what Bush apparently did on January 6th, 1973 (the date on his dental exam---and one of the dates he was paid for serving in the Guard).

Posted by: paul lukasiak at February 12, 2004 01:24 AM | PERMALINK

"...but certainly you realize that if these accusations go mainstream..."

The controversy has finally hit the mainstream, for good reason. Bush is lying...again. Cut to the chase and just let us know: Do you think Bush should release his service records or not? Why or why not? Step up to the plate and go on record, friend.

Mr. Waxx, while we're at it, do you believe his budget numbers this year? And can I sell you a bridge in Brooklyn?

Posted by: Tim B. at February 12, 2004 01:28 AM | PERMALINK

MM:

Incorrect. You may seem to feel the unlikely but plausible is a vaild argument, but instead that's very nearly the definition of a conspiracy theory.

If your only standard is plausibility, I have a job at the National Enquiror for you. And just for good measure, plausibility and proof aren't even distant cousins. Would you feel comfortable in a country whose burden of proof was 'beyond a plausibile likelihood'?

And why exactly do you doubt that this group would have regarded the abscence of pay records as proof of Bush's AWOL-ism? Blind faith? Ouija board?

Tell me, before the pay records were released, did Kevin Drum ever cite their abscence as evidence that Bush was lying? If so, check and mate.

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 01:41 AM | PERMALINK

To answer your 'challenge', Tim B... not that it will change your mind, and not that you are actually interested in an answer, but rather interested in attacking said answer...

1. I think that it would be SMART for Bush to release enough of his records to disprove the current accusations, which he has already done. Actually, the honorable discharge was enough, since you can't GET a honorable discharge after going AWOL, "sooper sekkret rekords changin ninja turtles" theories aside. At that point, the burden of proof falls to the accuser.

2. I've never believed any budget number by any politican. Your point?

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 01:56 AM | PERMALINK

Incorrect. You may seem to feel the unlikely but plausible is a vaild argument, but instead that's very nearly the definition of a conspiracy theory.

Oh please. You wouldn't know a conspiracy theory if all your family friends and neighbors were in on it.

So it's a "conspiracy theory" to suggest that a rich kid who scored 20% on his aptitude test but leaped to the front of a long waiting list to get into the Guard- to keep him out of Vietnam, let us not forget- might have been received pay on several occasions when he shouldn't have, with enough likelihood that we cannot simply accept his pay receipts as proof of his service? Oh, but that would be crazy, like a conspiracy theory. After all, you seem to think this is unlikely. I'm sure you believe that he didn't cash the checks for the dates when he was fucking off.

You have yet to produce anything other than argument from incredulity to support your positions.

Posted by: MillionthMonkey at February 12, 2004 01:58 AM | PERMALINK
...a rich kid who scored 20% on his aptitude test but leaped to the front of a long waiting list to get into the Guard- to keep him out of Vietnam, let us not forget-

Ohh... look... its an argument from increduality! Or do you have proof? No? Imagine that.

I'm providing argument from common sense. It is plausible (to use your standard) that someone pulled some strings to get G.W. into the Guard, but are they going to go through the effort and risk of pulling strings to play around with a couple of hundred dollars worth of paychecks? Especially given that such a deliberate redirecting of funds would be a crime? That defies common sense, but MORE then that, its up to YOU to prove, not me to disprove.

Call it a argument-by-burden-of-proof, if you like. Or call it shishkebob. I care not.

Posted by: Ryan Waxx at February 12, 2004 02:19 AM | PERMALINK

obe:

You are wise ... love the post.

Posted by: Birch Bayh For President at February 12, 2004 02:20 AM | PERMALINK

Wise up, Ryan. Richard Cohen says he got paid for drills he didn't attend, and I don't suppose he was unique. It follows that simply showing pay stubs is not sufficient to prove that you attended drills.

Posted by: Jesurgislac at February 12, 2004 02:24 AM | PERMALINK

Or do you have proof? No? Imagine that.

Umm, weren't we just talking about Richard Cohen a short while ago?

The burden of proof isn't on me to prove that Bush did fuck off and still got pay receipts. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this is impossible.

The real question here is, if a bratty rich kid does his National Guard service in a forest, does he generate a pay record?

Posted by: MillionthMonkey at February 12, 2004 02:25 AM | PERMALINK

Crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside. I love that in a president.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 12, 2004 02:40 AM | PERMALINK

Posted by baldilocks at 10:09 PM in Bark and Bite
Okay, I backslid. Happy? I’m sure some of you are gloating right now, but you could at least keep reading to find out how I slipped.

I cannot stop beating my head up against brick walls. I am powerless over the rant.

Kevin Drum of Calpundit made me relapse. Here, he posts a copy of George W. Bush’s Air National Guard point earnings (attendance records) from October 1972 to July 1973. (This page shows only October to May):


Drum: “My guess is the latter: they don't show much of anything related to the National Guard. Rather, they are records of something that counted as drills in the Air Reserve, although it's not clear what.”

BZZZTTT!!!! Your guess is wrong, Kevin. What else would this record be related to besides Guard Service? A point run-down of a game of tiddly-winks? The points listed are for attendance: drill (or Unit Training Assembly as we Air Force Reservists call it; that required single weekend per month) or active duty. In other words, you have to actually be there for something other than a goose egg to be listed under “points.”

Also, the only thing that counts as drill is….wait for it…..drill. However, as mention above, points are also accumulated for the two-week active duty period (fourteen days) that each Guard member/Reservist is required to serve each year. By the way, those fourteen days need not be served consecutively. You figure it out.

Drum: “But whatever they show, both records show the same thing. Even if we're not sure exactly what that is… [Bold mine]

Have truer words ever been typed on a keyboard? At least he admits it.
…..the mainstream media needs to at least understand what evidence is currently available and what its possible interpretations are.” [Bold mine]
Why am I not surprised to find out that the “mainstream media” cannot manage to dig up one of their number who is/was a Guardsman/Reservist? (I can help them: FoxNews reporter Greg Kelly is a Marine Reservist. Wonder if he’s been asked about this matter? Heh.)

Interpretation? What is there to interpret? The document shown isn’t some obscure scroll written in a long dead language, found during an archeological dig at the foot of the Himilayas. It’s an objective document showing the amount of attendance points that President Bush earned during the last part of his ANG stint--the part that a certain segment of the population just can’t get out of their minds.

Drum: “POSTSCRIPT: By the way, the actual point of Romano's story is that the Defense Department is requesting Bush's payroll records from "a DOD archive in Colorado." Why is DOD doing this? And why just payroll records? Very peculiar.”
It’s only seems peculiar if one doesn’t know how things work in the military, as, apparently, you do not, Kevin. Such records are the minimal needed to disprove the assertions that George W. Bush was “AWOL” from or “deserted” from the Air National Guard. Hopefully, after that, people like you will STOP TRYING TO PEDDLE SIMILAR CROCKS OF SHIT TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

There's always hope.

Posted by: Terry Lenzner lives at February 12, 2004 03:02 AM | PERMALINK

So to clarify, you do not believe a President has any ethical obligation to tell the truth or release his records in their entirety, as promised, for scrutiny by the Public? Just what is the basis for his legitimacy as leader then? A smart capacity for manipulating the public's perception and confidence? An excellence in lying by omission? Your points are devoid of an ethical compass--a vexing malady that seems to be shared by many on the Right these days. In your world of expediency, a president has no obligation to disclose the truth in its entirety, only enough cherry-picked records to support his assertions. Does honesty matter to you?

I've never believed any budget number by any politican. Your point?
This is an unclever way of avoiding the ethical gist of the question: Is it acceptable for the budget to bear no resemblance to reality, and in fact be the equivalent of accounting fraud? In what other areas of your life would such dishonesty be acceptable, nay, expected? Your jaundiced, realist's eye regarding government budget estimates is fine and good--but give a straight answer: are you in favor of accounting fraud with the national budget? I expect an honest count, or at least an honest effort. Bush, of course, has provided neither. Your pithy dismissal is an evasion.

...not that it will change your mind...
You've made no argument that Bush's behavior is ethical--so, how could my mind be changed? He could easily quell all doubts by releasing his records in their entirety. That he conspicuously does not speaks volumes and legitimately increases scrutiny. And, Mr. Waxx, his burden of proof is much higher as a public leader in the court of public opinion vs. the average criminal defendant who can legitimately refuse to incriminate himself and say no more. Does a President have no obligation to maintain a basic level of public trust and veracity?

...not that you are actually interested in an answer, but rather interested in attacking said answer...
Your "answer" is inadequate to the gravity and reality of the issues involved. Again, start adressing the ethics of evasion--and drop the Machiavellian bullshit and dissembling. Furthermore, you're not a victim my friend. Anyone who replies to other postings with references to "check and mate" should be perfectly capable of being criticized without whining about the perceived animus of an opponent. Absurd.

Posted by: Tim B. at February 12, 2004 03:03 AM | PERMALINK

FROM BILL HOBBS.COM

I Was Right - and Way Ahead of Big Media
On May 8, 2003, in my second blog post ever on the Was Bush Awol? controversy, I wrote this:

More problematic is the recollection of one colonel who says he doesn't remember Bush ever being on the base in Alabama. But that's one man, looking back 31 years, and there's little reason he should have singled out Bush back then for special notice in his memory file. Bush back then was just a kid whose dad was sort of famous in Texas - not famous in Alabama. Bush's father had not yet been president, vice president or CIA director. In fact, in 1970, the senior Bush, a two-term congressman from Texas, lost a Senate race. He wasn't even that big in Texas!

... Would a colonel in Alabama know who George W. Bush's father was way back in 1972? It seems unlikely. So his inability to recall, 31 years later, that Bush was on base, is not all that surprising. I doubt that colonel today could name most of the people who were on that base in 1972. The anti-Bushies spin his lack of memory as proof Bush wasn't on the base, when all it merely proves is the colonel can't remember Bush being on the base.

Now, read this from a story posted a few hours ago today at MSNBC.com, based on an interview with the colonel, who is now a brigadier general:
In an NBC News interview this week, the general expressed surprise that his remarks caused such consternation. "George Bush wasn't even famous back then, so why would I notice this outsider showing up at a couple of meetings. I just wouldn't."
I was right. And one more key piece of "evidence" the Bush-haters used to "prove" Bush was "AWOL" has evaporated.

The lie of the Left has been exposed. All that's left now is to explore why the journalists who were supposed to find the truth took so long to do it.

I'm sure there will be much more to say about that in the weeks ahead, but this article by Thomas Lipscomb in the Chicago Sun-Times, titled "Media failed to find facts behind Bush's service record," provides an excellent starting point for analyzing the media's failure to find the truth and/or it's complicity in spreading the lie that Bush was "AWOL."

Lipscomb writes:

It all started with a report by the Boston Globe during the 2000 presidential election questioning Bush's National Guard service. Walter Robinson cited retired Turnipseed, of the Alabama Air National Guard, as his source.

But in an interview , Turnipseed states that Robinson's reporting of their conversation was either distorted or based upon his misunderstanding of how the military functioned at the time of Bush's service. For Bush to be "AWOL" or "away without leave," he would have had to have been assigned to a unit and under its command.

Turnipseed states Bush was never ordered to report to the Alabama Air National Guard. He points out that Bush never transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama Air National Guard. He remained in the Texas Guard during his stay in Alabama. This was confirmed by the Texas Guard. And Turnipseed added that Bush was never under his command or any other officer in the Alabama Guard.

Turnipseed added that Bush was informed of the drill schedule of the Alabama Guard as a courtesy so he could get credit for drills while in Alabama for his service record in the Texas Guard. There was no compulsory attendance.This was also confirmed by the Texas Guard.

Sen. John Kerry got in on the act on Sunday, asking, "was he [Bush] present and active on duty in Alabama at the times he was supposed to be? I don't have the answer to that question." But as Turnipseed points out, Bush was never "supposed to be" anything in Alabama. And Kerry doesn't have "the answer" because he is taking advantage of a partisan political fantasy that has stayed aloft this long because of the lousy job done by the press in reporting on it.

Now, Robinson is beginning to have second thoughts. His latest column states: "President Bush received credit for attending Air National Guard drills in the fall of 1972 and spring of 1973 - a period when his commanders have said he did not appear for duty at bases in Montgomery, Ala., and Houston - according to two new documents obtained by the Globe." How could Robinson have gotten it so wrong?

The most charitable explanation for this distortion is the almost total ignorance the press of the realities of military service and its record-keeping. Yet Turnipseed has been repeatedly called by news organizations since the Globe reporting four years ago, and no one has chosen to correct the errors he has tried to point out or cover his denials.

The most startling aspect of this story is that the press has continually treated this affair as a political debate rather than a matter of fact.

The Boston Globe also comes under fire for it's big story this week citing "new" documents in the case.
There was already an exhaustive look at Bush's National Guard records published and available on the Internet to any reporter who has written on this in the last week. None of whom bothered to look it up. It's title? "The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, But Not AWOL, Either." It was "the first full chronology" and concludes "he did accumulate the days of service required of him for his ultimate honorable discharge."

The article included the pasteup pay records just released by the White House. It also included the "two new documents obtained by the Globe" by Robinson.

It was published four years ago in George Magazine. Its publisher was that well-known GOP supporter - the late John F. Kennedy, Jr.

It's worth noting that those "two new documents" the Globe touted were also breathlessly hyped this week by blogger Kevin Drum, a/k/a the CalPundit, as if they were smoking-gun proof that Bush shirked his duties. Other Bush-hating bloggers then hyped Drum's post. South Knox Bubba, for example, called it "Pulitzer Prize stuff."

Hardly.

The records Drum hyped as proof instead proved only that he knows too little about the military's recordkeeping to be writing about this stuff. I handled the documents differently. I posted a link to Drum's blog post here at HobbsOnline and invited my readers to assist me in figuring out what they really meant. And through collaborative blog-journalism we found the truth.

Posted

Posted by: heh heh at February 12, 2004 03:07 AM | PERMALINK

That's really nifty!

Posted by: bad Jim at February 12, 2004 03:12 AM | PERMALINK

"since you can't GET a honorable discharge after going AWOL"

This statement is factually inaccurate. You can be charged with being AWOL, sentenced, punished and subsequently receive an honorable discharge. I know of several cases where this has occurred, including my own. Lot's of servicemen are disciplined and complete their enlistment's honorably. Bush is attempting to prove the converse through illogic - since I got an honorable discharge - there was nothing unseemly about his service. This is the equivalent of Clinton not having sexual relations and is an old Bush trick. Releasing just the dental record information is the equivalent of Nixon's missing 20 minutes on the tape. If Bush had nothing to hide he would release the medical & disciplenary records. He IS hiding something, great work keeping this alive Kevin.

Posted by: FarmerJack at February 12, 2004 03:12 AM | PERMALINK

Yeah, well, since all of us are drugged-out slackers, who gives a shit?

There has to be a pony in there somewhere.

* Grounded

* Community service

On a classy blog like Calpundit it's expected that you know the preliminary antecedents. It's not like Atrios where you'd merely be nibbled to death by ducks.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 12, 2004 03:18 AM | PERMALINK

Chew on This
This letter to the editor is going to confuse the hell out of Kevin Drum:

George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.
It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.


Nah- more fun to blame the GreatSatan,and easier when facts are malleable tools in a partisan fight against the President. This will leave Kevin utterly flummoxed- it was he who was hypothesizing about Bush being placed in a disciplinary unit:

Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.
Kevin hates Bush, and thus, despite any evidence to the contrary, and despite his appalling lack of knowledge regarding the Reserves and how the Guard actually works and worked, he is going to keep spouting off at the mouth. Today, when the evidence is coming together to prove the negative that he and those like him have been trying Bush to prove, he has moved on. Now he, in Dean-like fashion, is floating a new 'doctored records' meme.

This is what happens when you drink the anti-Bush kool-aid- any charge of wrongdoing instantly becomes a fact, while any facts to prove the accusers wrong becomes an opinion that they can readily dismiss. As far as I am concerned, I am done with the 'opinions' of novices and fools regarding this issue. Like my Drill Sergeant told me- "Opinions are like assholes- everybody's got one." I wonder what Kevin's drill sergeant told him?


Filed under Democrat Stupidity
by John Cole

Posted by: heh at February 12, 2004 03:20 AM | PERMALINK

To heh,

THOSE AREN'T THE YEARS IN QUESTION. Now if you can find me someone from 72-73 (Which are the years in dispute) then I'll gladly agree with you.

Posted by: Imperiousrex at February 12, 2004 03:43 AM | PERMALINK

Please be courteous and post a link to the aforementioned article and not the whole thing. We have all seen it and it is not relevant to the discussion

Posted by: FarmerJack at February 12, 2004 03:46 AM | PERMALINK

Hey wingnuts, you can post as much long-winded, echo-chamber, Faux News conflated bullshit as you want--but why not release the records? And not the dental records, although that has been truly funny. Bush is such a card...

It's a simple question: Why not release the records?

Does the public have no right to scrutinize W's past? Seriously, why not release the records? Oh right, because you are afraid of the truth because you know Bush is full of shit. Don't conservatives stand for honesty and upright public service? Suuuure they do.

Middle America is finding out slowly that Bush is a walking falsehood. This house of cards will fall. What a beautiful day it will be when the frog-marches begin.

Release the Records, Mr. Bush

Posted by: Tim B. at February 12, 2004 03:51 AM | PERMALINK

Let's be kind; we do appreciate the attention. By now we know that you don't actually find us attractive; you're wasting your blandishments upon us.

Dork.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 12, 2004 04:05 AM | PERMALINK

I want a man who has been to combat for my president.

A man who has been in the trenches, who has seen the elephant.

A man who knows what it means when he sends word that men are going into combat.

A man who only goes to war when he has the backing of allies.

A man who went willingly when his country called him.

A decorated combat veteran.

Any man who has done that, is fit to be our leader.

Yes, the man for me is Adolph Hitler. He did all those things. John Kerry will do in a pinch.

Funny, when Bob Dole ran in '96, and GHW Bush ran in '92 against Brave Sir Robin, who bravely ran away from Viet Nam, actual draft dodging was an irrelevancy, as was GHWB's and Dole's actual heroism under fire. Now having served in Viet Nam was the most important thing ever, and anything less than getting shot at a couple times, makes a man unfit for being president.

I guess it's just time for a big switch in politics. I'd swear I heard John Kerry ranting about states' rights the other day, with respect to the Kennedy/Bush education bill, AKA No Child Left Behind. Wierd days...

Posted by: Al Maviva at February 12, 2004 04:21 AM | PERMALINK

Nice to see that so many trolls go to calpundit.com for their news! If they could only accept the truth. Blindly supporting our pathetic President gives them absolutely no credibility.

Posted by: JimO at February 12, 2004 05:30 AM | PERMALINK

Chew on This
This letter to the editor is going to confuse the hell out of Kevin Drum:

George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.
It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.


Nah- more fun to blame the GreatSatan,and easier when facts are malleable tools in a partisan fight against the President. This will leave Kevin utterly flummoxed- it was he who was hypothesizing about Bush being placed in a disciplinary unit:

Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.
Kevin hates Bush, and thus, despite any evidence to the contrary, and despite his appalling lack of knowledge regarding the Reserves and how the Guard actually works and worked, he is going to keep spouting off at the mouth. Today, when the evidence is coming together to prove the negative that he and those like him have been trying Bush to prove, he has moved on. Now he, in Dean-like fashion, is floating a new 'doctored records' meme.

This is what happens when you drink the anti-Bush kool-aid- any charge of wrongdoing instantly becomes a fact, while any facts to prove the accusers wrong becomes an opinion that they can readily dismiss. As far as I am concerned, I am done with the 'opinions' of novices and fools regarding this issue. Like my Drill Sergeant told me- "Opinions are like assholes- everybody's got one." I wonder what Kevin's drill sergeant told him?


Filed under Democrat Stupidity by John Cole

Posted by: Chew on This at February 12, 2004 05:35 AM | PERMALINK

Who's the idiot who keeps putting up that letter from that asshole weekend warrrior who has been thoroughly discredited?

Posted by: SW at February 12, 2004 05:47 AM | PERMALINK

If this asshole is trying to imply that ducking into the Texas Air National Guard at the time was anything other than a way to avoid going to Vietnam, he is a lying sack of steaming shit. He knows it, the fraud who wrote this letter knows it, and everyone else who served in the guard at the time knows it.

Posted by: SW at February 12, 2004 05:55 AM | PERMALINK

Wow. The echo chamber is deafening. Everyone, do yourselves a favor and go outside. I don't care if you think Bush is the best thing since sliced bread or the type of person who would slice a kitten like a loaf of bread. Get up and go outside. Enjoy the world outside of the echo chamber of the blogosphere, at least for a little while.
The sun will come up tomorrow. Cartoon Network will have another all-day Dexter's Lab marathon. Charisma Carpenter will appear in Playboy next month. And this country will survive, and continue to thrive, whether GWB drilled with his unit, RST'd with another, skipped a physical, or shot heroin after a gang-bang with a crack whore. The US survived being invaded by Britain. It survived the Civil War. It survived Vietnam. It survived Nixon. It will survive Bush. Hell, it will survive 8 years of GWB.
You know how I know it will survive such a thing? Because the US is bigger than the President. It's bigger than the legislature, or any "activist" judge. The Constitution is a very rugged document which will not be subverted. No matter how many USAPATRIOT acts are passed this country will survive.
So push away from the keyboard, close the laptop, and get a breath of fresh air. Hell, maybe getting some oxygen into the brain will cut down on the ad homium. Or at least make it wittier than what passes for a personal attack right now. C'mon, insult their mothers people!

Posted by: SSG B at February 12, 2004 06:10 AM | PERMALINK

this is life and death stuff sparky. If you can't get worked up over this, you may as well pack it in.

Posted by: SW at February 12, 2004 06:23 AM | PERMALINK

Burkett's story is making Karl Rove shit pablum today, I guarantee it.

Up to now, the mainstream press was giving Bush 90% of the benefit of 90% of the doubts on this and every other issue.

But now, Burkett -- a longtime Bush buddy -- steps forward to say that BushCo tampered with the ANG documents. Suddenly, EVERYTHING Bush and his defenders show or say is called into question. Nothing of theirs can be taken at face value any more.

And suddenly, the fact that there are scribbles on the copy of the 'torn document' that Bush released to George magazine has scribbles on it -- scribbles that are not on any other copies of that document -- looms very large.

Posted by: Phoenix Woman at February 12, 2004 06:28 AM | PERMALINK

Notice the influx of desperate RW trolls ever since Burkett's story hit the front page of USA Today?

So the NYT and USA Today are 'echo chambers', too?

The trolls will do anything to distract from the proof that their boy lies the way the rest of us breathe.

And speaking of which: Watch as a Bush defender gets his own ass handed back to him, in a nice béchamel sauce:

http://www.oliverwillis.com/entries/0204/owcom_exclusive_bill_campenni_talks.html

Posted by: Phoenix Woman at February 12, 2004 06:32 AM | PERMALINK

But you know, I keep thinking that these must be second or third string trolls. They just don't seem to have any "Spunk" in them. Just random spittle.

Posted by: SW at February 12, 2004 06:39 AM | PERMALINK

SW, your tinfoil hat needs replacing. This story is as bogus as the claim that Max Cleland "left his limbs on the battlefield".

Posted by: Stan at February 12, 2004 06:58 AM | PERMALINK

I'd second the comments of people above who've noted the importance of the source here - USA Today - as much as the content. This is the house newspaper for the Bush Administration, the one that they think is more important than NYT and WaPo in terms of getting their message out. It's read by the small businessman who is catching a flight between Cincinnati and Chicago, or the woman attending a convention in Orlando - the moderate, dispassionate middle.

If NYT ran this story today, they would decry 'liberal media.' They can't make the similar charge about USA Today. Which tells you there's probably something here.

Posted by: CB at February 12, 2004 07:08 AM | PERMALINK

The day that this issue developed legs was when AWOL "W" landed dressed as a "hero" on the deck of the Lincoln. IMHO, we need to ask ourselves do we ant to re-elect a lying drunken fool who doesn't understand the difference between reality and the pap that this handlers feed him. HOW MANY TIMES do people have to ask: do we want a country in which corporate folks call all the shots; a tax policy based on leaving no billionaire behind and screwing working stiffs; no national health plan when even a third rate country like Mexico has an affordable health plan - hey even an American can buy into that national health plan for like $400 a year; an economic policy based on exporting jobs abroad; AND last but not least do we want to have a foreign policy predicated on the illusions sitting in AWOL W's coked up brain?

Posted by: El Pocho at February 12, 2004 07:59 AM | PERMALINK

"The last action documented was Mr. Bush's discharge from the Air Force Reserve on November 21, 1974.


http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/slpcreply.jpg

How do we know it was honorable?

Posted by: Martin Heldt at February 12, 2004 08:55 AM | PERMALINK

Yikes! The first person account swearing to have served in the Guard with Bush has yet another person signing on, and trying to pass it off as their original work, so far as I read their post. Hasn't this perjury been discredited enough without another lying liar's signature?

From another angle: If we assume that GWB WAS in fact where he said he was during those days, we must accept that our current President was at the time a totally friendless sap-- inconspicous, so soft-spoken that no one noticed. That's not consistent with his frat president, party-boy past, though, is it? But I offer that fall-back defense to the Loyalists: Bush was indeed in Alabama in 1972 but was a complete (drunk? coked out?) loser whom people failed to even notice as he shuffled past.

Next question: Does anyone recollect him working on the Blount campaign? When? How often was he around? There's supposed to be a news report available on the Internet that has an aide saying Bush was working in Florida in 1972 as well as helping the campaign work in Alabama. I don't have Nexis--would someone like to search Gearge W. Bush-Florida-1972? Both the D and R national conventions were in Miami that year, with a heavy National Guard presence. Was GWB on assignment for either the Guard or the GOP in Miami? The possiblilites intrigue...

Posted by: Radio Head at February 12, 2004 04:40 PM | PERMALINK

For better or for worse, the blood is definitely in the water now.

looks like our courageous SLACKER strayed out to the DEEP END...

Posted by: metapatriot at February 12, 2004 04:49 PM | PERMALINK

What possible purpose does it serve to discuss the sins of "W"? Even if a video tape of him haveing intimate relations with an under age male goat while snorting coke in the oval office was released the "W" supporters would say "So What" cause he da man. I mean apparently this guy can do no wrong. All he has to do is not fall down when he chews gum and the majority of "us" think he has walked on water.

I have nothing against him personally and I do think it was damn polite of him to stay out of the way prior to 9/11 by vacationing and golfing. What I do have a problem with is that he is allowing some pretty scarry people do some pretty scary stuff. Think about the ramifications of the inaptly named USA PATRIOT ACT, or the enhanced powers of the FISA Courts.

Also of concern is the fate of those murdering scum sucking bastards languishing at Gitmo. I mean what the hell happened to "Truth Justice and the American way"? If they did participate in the atrocity of 9/11 then execute them. If they did not then send them home. Shit we at least gave the NAZI's a trial and then rightly hung the bastards. It seems wrong to keep prisoners indefinately. (I will refrain from mentioning the plight of Jose Padilla, an AMERICAN CITIZEN who has not been allowed to speak to an attorney, or been told what crime he is charged with[personally if I knew for a fact that he was involved with the perpetrators of 9/11, I would not hesitate to send him to allah))

But it is more heinous to invade Iraq because some SAUDI ARABIAN fanatics who may have possibly visited Afghanistan prior to embarking on their heinous attack against the innocent people working at the World trade Center and the Pentagon.

It is however more heinous that the "POILTICAL" hacks that our president has allowed to be appointed, use the attacks of 9/11 as an excuse to implement changes to the fundamental values of this country. No terrorist could take away our freedom the way we are throwing it away in the name of security.

Posted by: cogito, ergo cogito sum at February 13, 2004 08:19 PM | PERMALINK

"Maybe he ought to sell some Snapple or something since he has all these ditto-heads hanging out at his sight."

Thanks, Mario - I laughed so hard I've wet myself.

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