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February 09, 2004

RELEASING THE BUSH RECORDS....So was President Bush serious yesterday when he said he'd be willing to release all his National Guard records? Keith Berry has the response from the White House when reporters pressed the issue at the daily briefing today.

The key point here is not Scott McClellan's polished blather, which is wholly unsurprising, but the fact that reporters didn't press back on his most obvious weak point by asking if Bush would authorize the release of records that are normally held back from FOIA requests because of privacy concerns. That's the natural place to start.

Really, all Bush has to do is contact the various archives — the Texas Air National Guard archives at Camp Mabry, the Air Reserve archives in Denver, and the national military archives in St. Louis — and tell them to simply assemble every scrap of paper they have regarding his military service and then release it. It's not so hard.

UPDATE: Plus IRS records too!

Posted by Kevin Drum at February 9, 2004 05:28 PM | TrackBack


Comments

And let's not forget the IRS, which has microfilms of Bush's tax returns for 1970-1973, including the W-2s that will show whether Bush did any National Guard service in 1973, and will release them at the taxpayer's request.

Posted by: Mark Kleiman at February 9, 2004 05:40 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe he didn't file returns for that period . . .

Actually, Mark makes a great point and that would probably be one of the easiest ways for him to verify this. The only problem is, Bush has to request them.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 9, 2004 05:42 PM | PERMALINK

FOIA requests for key military records are still being withheld to this day citing "privacy reasons". This means that Bush has not signed the normal privacy waiver as all other veteran presidential candidates have done since WWII.

This should be dead simple for the press. Russert got Bush to state he will do this and now he needs to be held accountable to his word. They need to stop getting distracted by "dog ate my homework" excuse. Once he authorizes the release the press can submit their requests and do the rest of the work to make them available to the public.

Posted by: Gryn at February 9, 2004 05:43 PM | PERMALINK

Our smirker-in-chief is just playing for time, hoping the issue will go away like in 2000. He thought he had DODGED the bullet Bruce Lee-style, and now he has to put up with THIS crap AGAIN ?

The records will never be released.

Posted by: ch2 at February 9, 2004 05:48 PM | PERMALINK

It may become moot in the campaign. I just heard Kerry over NPR, in Roanoke ? VA, asked about the issue of Bush's ANG record. He said, it didn't really matter much, that's not part of the focus of his message, etc. I think he and the Bush campaign have made a sort of deal, perhaps best for the country too, to just let Vietnam go (as I suggested elsewhere this venue.) Kerry is afraid of Bush supporters putting out all that stuff about him marching with Jane Fonda and "communists like Angela Davis", and Rush is talking about that while quoting Kerry saying that it doesn't matter how or whether people avoided 'nam. Two things though: the Kerry critics will push this on their own anyway. Also, what Kerry meant was: serving in the Guard wasn't to be criticised per se, but the issue with Bush is how well he served and how honest he was about it later.

Posted by: Neil at February 9, 2004 05:51 PM | PERMALINK

Bush = lying weasel.

Waiting for the Republicans who occassionally post here to step up to the plate and defend their Weasel-in-Chief. Come on guys, tell us about what an honorable man GWB is...

Posted by: Tim B. at February 9, 2004 05:52 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, I know, I know--it must be Clinton's fault somehow...

Posted by: Tim B. at February 9, 2004 05:53 PM | PERMALINK

"It may become moot in the campaign. I just heard Kerry over NPR, in Roanoke ? VA, asked about the issue of Bush's ANG record. He said, it didn't really matter much, that's not part of the focus of his message, etc. I think he and the Bush campaign have made a sort of deal..."

Naw. That's Kerry being presidential and above the fray. It's up to us to press the issue until it makes someone bleed. Let Kerry be president. We will be the attack dog.

Posted by: jri at February 9, 2004 05:54 PM | PERMALINK

This bullshit is backfiring:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/09/elec04.poll.prez/


Keep it coming, ladies.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 06:02 PM | PERMALINK

Why are you people pursuing this so much? Mr. Bush said that he released all of this information in 2000!

Oh wait -- that was bullshit.

Posted by: Austin at February 9, 2004 06:02 PM | PERMALINK

By the way - when is Clinton going to release his medical records?

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 06:06 PM | PERMALINK

By the way - when is Clinto--

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Posted by: Old Hat at February 9, 2004 06:15 PM | PERMALINK

Who cares about Bill Clinton - when Kerry releases all of his PRIVATE MILITARY RECORDS, then we'll talk : )

Posted by: Charlie at February 9, 2004 06:18 PM | PERMALINK

RWV, who is this Clinton fella? Sounds like you are very concerned about his health. How lovely!

PS: Do you know how much tea costs in China right now?

Thanx!

Posted by: Gryn at February 9, 2004 06:19 PM | PERMALINK

I see no reason that he should have to release IRS records. It seems to me that there are limits to what should be public information. But he said he would release all military records and if all Presidents since WWII have signed this privacy release and he hasn't, then I feel like he should have to. Bush is building up a list of reasons to at the very least not vote for him. I can't vote for someone that doesn't support the Patriot Act, but if he said he was going to do it he needs to do it.

Between jobs estimates, the budget, Plame(I'm still waiting to find out the two staffers names or see Novak in jail), the intelligence commission ending after the election, this President is giving conservatives like myself no reason to vote for him. Hopefully, he will come to his senses.

Posted by: Chad Peterson at February 9, 2004 06:23 PM | PERMALINK

Kerry hasn't released his records? Why the heck would he not do that? Is he hiding something? I mean how much of a better record can you have.

Posted by: Chad Peterson at February 9, 2004 06:25 PM | PERMALINK

Kerry testified that soldiers in Nam cut off heads and ears, raped women, etc.

Maybe he was speaking of his own actions?

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 06:30 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

quite captures the nuisance.

I'd prefer...

bzzzzzzzzzzz.....

"SPLAT"

And one less mosquito.
The guys got the pugnaciousness of Tom Delay, and the intellect as well.

What a low-brow pest.

Anyways...onwards and upwards...let's leave the swamp:

What I'd like to know is why aren't these reporters keen to the questions that need to be asked? They always seem to be a step slow.

I'd like to try and answer that:

They don't read the relevant blogs.

Which is proof in a way, that the terrain of journalism has dramatically shifted, and some of the current dinosaurs are just too slow to adapt, and thus are doomed to perish.

Posted by: -pea- at February 9, 2004 06:33 PM | PERMALINK

It's obvious from the various GOP surrogates sent out to comment on this issue that Bush didn't report for duty for many months. Their responses -- e.g., this has been gone over and resolved in the past, the Democrats are resorting to smear tactics, Kerry is denigrating the National Guard, etc. -- all avoid the basic issue. Conspicusly absent from these defenses is "he served and here's the proof." Whoever's giving them their talking points has obviously instructed them to avoid any flat-out assertion that Bush did his time in Alabama and Texas.
As for the "what about Clinton" crowd, (1) Clinton never landed on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit, (2) until 9/11, most of us thought we'd never have another "war president",(3) National Guard units are now not only being sent into combat, but are being kept past their rotation time

Posted by: Richard at February 9, 2004 06:35 PM | PERMALINK

RWV, actually Kerry testified that others had testified to doing those things. Which is true.

Posted by: theCoach at February 9, 2004 06:36 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, as you so eloquently demonstrated over the last week or so, Bush can't do this. No way, no how. There's something there.

Bush knows that. Or, he'd release. Kerry needs to keep pushing this issue.

Tonight on Hardball former Senator Cleland was pretty good in laying out exactly what needs to be released. And why. The evidence and pressure will mount. Bush & Co. simply will have to do something about this.

Given the fix they're in, I don't know what that would be.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 06:39 PM | PERMALINK

Just to clarify, Bush did not say he would release his military records, exactly; what he said was (transcript via New York Times):

RUSSERT: But would you allow pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?

BUSH: Yeah. If we still have them, but you know, ...

As several people have pointed out, it is not just the military records that are pertinent. Scott McClellan pointed out that Bush probably does not have his tax returns from over 30 years ago, but I bet the IRS does.

Posted by: Joseph at February 9, 2004 06:40 PM | PERMALINK

Can't you see what your frantic pleas are doing to your own candidate? You want records?
You want to look at the past? Fine, let's get it on, starting with Hanoi John Kerry and his 'war hero' status followed closely by an inquiry as to why he was discharged early. Perhaps there is a plausible explanation such as his desire to join the VVAW. You do remember that don't you?
There are still plenty of 'archives' showing hippy Kerry throwing medals over the wall while surrounded by his peace loving fellow 'heros'. Here's a good place to start your journey to enlightment. They seem particularly interested in the merit of the decision to award Kerry those hero medals. Still interested in records? Our next trip with be one that takes us through the Senate archives. Sounds like fun. Stay tuned.

Posted by: Randall at February 9, 2004 06:41 PM | PERMALINK

Between jobs estimates, the budget, Plame [etc]...this President is giving conservatives like myself no reason to vote for him.

A toast for the honest conservatives out there.

Hopefully, he will come to his senses.

I predict the electorate will come to its senses before GWB does. Hopefully bigger shit doesn't hit the fan while these weasels are still in power. These are serious times and we need a leader that doesn't use national disasters as a pretext for implementing policies he never ran on.

Accountability, honesty and concern for people, not corporations--give me these in a candidate and I don't care about the political party. Bush just fails on so many important tests.

Posted by: Tim B. at February 9, 2004 06:46 PM | PERMALINK

And, after he's done with THAT Randall, yesterday at National Review Online posted a piece by NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson titled, "Seeing One When There Are Two: Laci Peterson's Mother Tries to Set John Kerry Straight," regarding the statements of Senator John Kerry (D-Mass.) on the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a bill that is soon to come before the U.S. Senate for the first time ever. The essay and links to the documentation are here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johnson200402050947.asp

Posted by: Charlie at February 9, 2004 06:47 PM | PERMALINK

What a bunch of wankers. They let Scottie off the hook everytime. If one of them ever woke up and acted like a journalist I think I'd die of shock.

The exception to that is Helen Thomas, who is heroic each and everyday.

Posted by: four legs good at February 9, 2004 06:50 PM | PERMALINK

Well Charlie, then why dont you get on over to your blog and start blogging about that Kerry thing.
It seems that this thread is about Bush's record.
Nice tryat diversion.

Posted by: steveo at February 9, 2004 06:57 PM | PERMALINK

Senator Cleland is just bitter bitter man who thought that his disabilities were a ticket to a lifetime in the Senate.

He did not obtain his injuries in a heroic fashion... more like via a "Jackass" stunt involving a live grenade.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 06:58 PM | PERMALINK

Randall--
Keep on frothing. Why do you find Kerry's participation in VVAW dishonorable? He himself is not ashamed of it, he even mentions it in his ad that in running in Wisconsin now. (You know, not everyone who opposed the Vietnam War was a "commie". You're a troglodyte even by 1972 standards. Go back to writing letters to Soldier of Fortune. That's where your "insights" belong.)
Bush, however, is visibly visibly ashamed of his military record. That in itself should tell you which side should be worried.

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:04 PM | PERMALINK

Steveo:

I don't have a blog - if Kevin tells me stop posting at his, I will : )

Posted by: Charlie at February 9, 2004 07:08 PM | PERMALINK


RWV, Randall, Charlie,

So, you guys think the best defense is an offense? Well, this lib says "bring it on!" and let the fur fly.

By all means. Let their records speak for themselves.

Posted by: bobbyp at February 9, 2004 07:09 PM | PERMALINK

gulp...
CANT BREATH....
gulp...
drowning in froth...
real classy, rwv. maybe you yourself would like to sustain some injuries in an "unheroic" fashion, since you seem to know so much about heroism.
but again, why are you avoiding the issue, which is about bush's record? is it perhaps because you...gasp...have nothing to say?

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:10 PM | PERMALINK

Good lawdy lawdy: what are you Bush haters gonna do with the fact that Scott Ritter seems to dig underage pussy?

Posted by: s hussein at February 9, 2004 07:11 PM | PERMALINK

On "Meet the Press," Bush said that he would release his records, and since all previous veterans who were presidential candidates have done so, why would anyone expect that he wouldn't release his?

Right.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 07:12 PM | PERMALINK

He said he'd release the records, but they've already been released. Kind of Clintonesque, I'll admit. But his answer was his answer. End of story.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 07:16 PM | PERMALINK

This thing with military service is a joke. Lee Harvey Oswald, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Timothy McVeigh were all military veterans.

In fact, the McVeigh-Kerry parallel is uncanny, because both were decorated in battle, but then came back as America-hating traitors.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 07:18 PM | PERMALINK

kokblok
No need for me to froth, I merely want to be fair and get at the truth. Isn't that what you want?
And Communists. Where did that come from?
I don't recall mentioning anything about Communists. I'd best take a google tour and see what comes up for the keywords "kerry" "communist" and "vvaw"
Very interesting
Bring on the RECORDS.

Posted by: Randall at February 9, 2004 07:19 PM | PERMALINK

If this breaks thread purity, so be it, it's worth it; Drudge is going crazy with revelations about the Plame etc. investigations, topped with

"Prosecutors conduct series of meetings described as 'tense, combative'... Armed with handwritten White House notes, detailed cell phone logs, e-mails between presidential aides and reporters, prosecutors demand explanations of conversations... Developing..."

The headline itself reads:

CIA LEAK PROBE HEATS; WHITE HOUSE EMPLOYEES APPEAR BEFORE GRAND JURY

Well, only Scott McClellan is mentioned per se (Drudge hype), but this is big. I think the National Guard stuff is simply getting irrelevant. Who cares what Bush did decades ago - this is now, and it's bad.

Posted by: danderous at February 9, 2004 07:20 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: s hussein at February 9, 2004 07:23 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks, RWV.
I'm glad you're on the case.
That's a load off my mind.
Whoo-eee! You're a funny guy!

I'll give you a little piece of advice, though. The Bush team's defense is soon going to be that "it doesn't matter" what Bush did in Vietnam. That is the position you should be defending, not this funny stuff about Bush having nothing to hide. I thought I'd help you out, even though I'm sure Rush will help clarify what your position should be in the coming weeks. It's tough being a foot soldier, ain't it?

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:25 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, good, RWV
I see you've already felt the need to shift your arguement in exactly the way I predicted you would. Just like clockwork, my good little soldier boy.

Randall--
What particular records are you speaking of? What you're saying is not making any sense to me. Maybe I misunderstood your first post...

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:28 PM | PERMALINK

Just days after heroic action that led to a Silver Star commendation, Max Cleland, exiting a helicopter in an area of conflict, reached for a grenade that he thought had come free from his gear.

It belonged to a soldier new to the theater who had improperly rigged it for hair-trigger detonation and who had dropped it when he earlier exited the helicopter.

You, Right-Wing Vegetarian, deserve the MTV title.

Posted by: Dixie at February 9, 2004 07:30 PM | PERMALINK

s hussein--
well im not going to do anything, since whether or not scott ritter likes underage pussy has nothing to do with the fact that he was right about weapons of mass destruction.

Funny, last time I checked Scott Ritter wasnt running for president.

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:31 PM | PERMALINK

RWV, i thought you were just a know-nothing, like Randall, but your remarks about Senator Cleland are despicable. I regret ever paying any attention to your ignorance. You are an embarassment to whatever cause you think you are advancing. Talk about a jackass.

Randall, if you'd care to refight the vietnam war, let's have at it; if not, your slimy remarks are pathetic. We know what John Kerry was doing, both in vietnam and after, and it didn't include hiding out because daddy had influence and then pretending you were a brave soldier....

Posted by: howard at February 9, 2004 07:33 PM | PERMALINK

Kerry is an America-hating traitor? That's very reasoned and temperate, and completely on-topic.

Bush, of course, did not release his military record: that is, he did not provide a waiver which would allow the military or the IRS to release his records.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 07:33 PM | PERMALINK

Randall,

Don't stop now. There's plenty more if you google "bush + nazi". Have fun.

Posted by: bobbyp at February 9, 2004 07:34 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: CSAFC at February 9, 2004 07:35 PM | PERMALINK

I'm really sorry to see the caliber of the right-wing opposition on Calpundit has gone down so much. What happened to the decent folks like Sebastian and so forth?

Posted by: kokblok at February 9, 2004 07:36 PM | PERMALINK

I hope Bush DOESN'T release his records. I hope he keeps trying to say it doesn't matter, etc.

That would suit me just fine. It looks like he's hiding something to a rational person, so hopefully enough voters will be swayed by that to put him out of office. That and all the other "honor and integrity releated program activities" he is so good at, like feloniously leaking the name of a CIA operative to the press, and then not doing a damn thing about finding out who it was until the press picked up the story a few months later.

I really don't care if he served honorably or not. I don't think he did, but I don't really care.

What amuses me is that people who would defend him seem to feel that by attacking John Kerry, who is not yet the nominee, they feel that they are defending Bush.

Well, you're not. You just look like ignorant asses. This is not ABOUT John Kerry, this is about George W. Bush and any discrepancies that might or might not exist in his record with the Texas and Alabama Air National Guard.

There seems to be a pattern here, like with the Plame investigation. Bush could have gotten to the bottom of that with a few phone calls to his staff, but no, he needs a Grand Jury investigation to find out what is going on in the White House. He could have had the perpetrators resignation on his desk in one hour, with a single phone call. But he sat on that bit of info (that there had been a leak to the press) for several MONTHS, before finally coming out with a non-denial denial.

Makes a reasonable person wonder what is going on, doesn't it?

He could settle this National Guard issue with a single phone call to the National Guard.

In both cases, that he hasn't, and apparently won't, is interesting to me.

Posted by: Monkey at February 9, 2004 07:39 PM | PERMALINK

his answer was his answer. End of story.

God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

That was truly one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time.

Still searching for an honest conservative, maybe one day I'll find one. (But I think we'll find Saddam's stockpiles of WMD first.)

Posted by: 16 at February 9, 2004 07:39 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: rsa at February 9, 2004 07:39 PM | PERMALINK

That reminds me, hee hee: Scott Ritter was right about WMD, and said early tht there wasn't any. Is this stuff about overly youthful felines the product of a mutant bot out of the RNC virus lab?

Posted by: danderous at February 9, 2004 07:43 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, it appears Kevin has hit a nerve.

Posted by: alias at February 9, 2004 07:43 PM | PERMALINK

This is sad.

The freepers are out in force, eh? We've got RWV who can say little beyond "you're ladies" and "you're America-hating traitors", and Saddam, or whoever, spamming crap.

You know, as little as they claim to care about this, it has seriously struck a nerve, hasn't it?

"It's coming down, it's coming down, it's coming... down..."

- Cake

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 9, 2004 07:47 PM | PERMALINK

And what's really funny is that what they're so worked up over is an indisputable fact.

"Really, all Bush has to do is contact the various archives — the Texas Air National Guard archives at Camp Mabry, the Air Reserve archives in Denver, and the national military archives in St. Louis — and tell them to simply assemble every scrap of paper they have regarding his military service and then release it."

How can they argue with that? Answer: they can't.

So, they make idiots out of themselves. Well, okay, that's kind of redundant.

Posted by: scarshapedstar at February 9, 2004 07:50 PM | PERMALINK

If Bush doesn't release his records, there's a chance the issue will just go away, though with rabble-rousers like Michael Moore and *gasp* Kevin Phillips around, it's not a good chance.

If he does release his records, it will probably turn out that he just blew off his Guard duty in 1972, which will hurt, since it makes him a liar as well as a shirker.

Today the Washington Post proclaimed that he would release his records, which renews his bind. He'll probably just release again what he's released in the past and claim that he's come clean.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 08:02 PM | PERMALINK

alternate fantasy world:

Matt Drudge keeps a running countdown, "Truth About President's Military Service Records Held Hostage, DAY 43! Breaking... Bush promised to release military service records in his appearance on MTP, 43 days ago today, with still no FOIA privacy release issued..."

Posted by: melior at February 9, 2004 08:07 PM | PERMALINK

I've suspected from the first post of his that I read that Right-Wing Vegetarian was some sort of incredibly droll satire. Nobody could sincerely be that stupid.

Kevin may need to prune the thread a little. The repetitive Ritter posts wouldn't be missed.

Posted by: jimBOB at February 9, 2004 08:07 PM | PERMALINK

Where is the missing piece of the Vince Foster suicide note?

When will Clinton release his medical records?

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 08:11 PM | PERMALINK

bad Jim, I think Bush will have to deal with this. He's in a world of hurt over this. It really didn't matter in 2000 because of the different circumstances.

Now he's done and started a war. And it turns out that he didn't even bother to show up to meet his National Guard obligation.

It all really shows just what his character is made of. Rich kid gettin' off, he be. He knew there was no danger, so he ended up just dropping out.

The Kevin Phillips book is quite illuminating. I urge everyone to read it. It tells us miles about his background and family.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 08:14 PM | PERMALINK

hey: did y'all hear that Bush is a draft dodging AWOL disgrace to his country? What an asshole. His daddy got him out of Nam by hooking him up with the sweet Guard position but little Richie Rich can't even do that for a war that he believed in.

ha-ha. All of you stupid conservative fucks are such tools! Your candidate is a draft dodging little pussy. ha-ha.

Key kiddies: you want to know what will really blow your minds? Your tough guy hero,Dubya, was a fucking pansy-ass cheerleader at an all-boy high school. No wonder Andrew Sullivan likes him so much.

Posted by: The Fool at February 9, 2004 08:15 PM | PERMALINK

You know, Right-Wing Vegetarian, I used to be a Republican. Clinton's gone. Get over it. This is about Bush and 530+ dead.

Doesn't that weigh on your conscience in the least? You sound like my yahoo Brother-In-Law, who told me Thanksgiving that he'd be more than willing to sign up, if only they'd take older guys.

How about you? Ready to hit the sand?

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 08:18 PM | PERMALINK

Can someone explain to me how these press corps people go to work every day? I mean, I can understand politics and spin and hype and yadda yadda. But Ari Fleischer and now Scott McClellan just outright lie to their faces. How little self respect do you have to have to sit back and take that?

How hard is it to just say, "Scott, the president has never authorized the release of his complete military records. He didn't in 2000 and he hasn't yet in this election. Yes or no, is the president going to authorize the release of his records from the Texas Air National Guard archives at Camp Mabry, the Air Reserve archives in Denver, and the national military archives in St. Louis like he promised to during MTP? Yes or No?"

How hard is that?

Posted by: space at February 9, 2004 08:21 PM | PERMALINK

Russert: Would you authorize the release of everything to settle this?

Bush: Yes, absolutely. We did so in 2000, by the way.

NO. A flat out lie, the meaning of the documents that are available, none released by Bush BTW, is not immediately obvious because of what is missing. The records more than strongly imply a disciplinary hearing, a transfer to the Air Reserve Forces subject to active duty if needed and six months added to his length of service.

#1 on google for liberal news

Posted by: Easter Lemming Liberal News at February 9, 2004 08:21 PM | PERMALINK

One thing I have to say to all the older lefties here. Man, I was wrong about the Vietnam War. When I was in college 20 years ago, I walked around telling some of my professors that they were wrong about the whole gig.

Man, do I feel like a fool. I can tell you now that had my ass been on the line (I was a youngin' during Vietnam) I would've done the same thing.

What an idiot I was as a kid. Painful.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 08:23 PM | PERMALINK

I guess what amazes me most is that there are still literate conservatives out there who say things like "I hope Bush comes to his senses." By now it should be clear to the right, as it was to the left all along, that there's no there there. He isn't going to change, because there's nothing he can change to. The campaign, of course, like all campaigns since the beginning of time, will portray him as heroic, bold, decisive, etc. etc., and the house conservatives in the media will follow the line, because they have nothing better to do. But everyone who's been paying attention knows Bush is an empty suit.

Posted by: englishprofessor at February 9, 2004 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

Bush National Guard Records Taken

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/2/10/4747/96145

Posted by: gofer at February 9, 2004 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

space, I too wonder what the hell is up with the press corps. Keep the faith, though. They're a lot like lemmings.

Once someone breaks something big, they'll be all over it.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

The conservative movement seems to be picking up steam here.

Posted by: zizka / John Emerson at February 9, 2004 08:31 PM | PERMALINK

Well, english professor, I'm not amazed by anything in this world anymore. I recall reading that a good percentage of the German population at the end of WWII actually thought that the fact that the allies had gotten so far into Germany was the resulted of some devious plot that Hitler was drawing them into.

My own Mother at Thanksgiving told me that God himself had put Bush into office. My response was that God sure must have something against America.

Imagine coming from a fundy family.

Posted by: Tony Shifflett at February 9, 2004 08:31 PM | PERMALINK

Tony,

"How about you? Ready to hit the sand?"

Nope. I pay taxes to send other people to do the fighting. It is a volunteer force. If you don't want to fight, don't volunteer. Some people seem to confuse military service with a free college education. Bullshit.

Don't call me a chickenhawk, mofo. I like to take big fat dumps, but have no interest in becoming a plumber. I expect cops to do their jobs, but have no interest in becoming a cop.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 08:37 PM | PERMALINK

It is true that Kevin has hit a nerve.

Think of it this way: In how many presidential elections has the right made an issue of their opponent's military record?

Now to have the head of that snake swing round and snap onto their own gonads is an appalling trick.

Dante couldn't have imagined it better.

But also, to explain the sudden surge in thread desecration there is this idea:

Many Calpunditer's have noted lately that Kevin's blog is becoming better known. (Just check out the trackbacks.)

Fame despoils.
It draws flies.

Remember that Einstein quote?

With fame I become more and more stupid, which of course is a very common phenomenon.

Just as individuals can be ruined by fame, and great hang-gliding spots, and remarkable restaurants, so too blogs.

If there is any salvation to be found it is in the hope that the unholy have attention spans that match their wits.

Otherwise, the fix is purely techincal.

Posted by: -pea- at February 9, 2004 08:40 PM | PERMALINK

scarshapedstar:

There's another Cake song that follows the one you quoted from "Fashion Nugget" called "Nugget."

The relevant lyric from that song goes out to the trolls:

Shut the Fuck Up!

Posted by: peejay at February 9, 2004 08:40 PM | PERMALINK

"Think of it this way: In how many presidential elections has the right made an issue of their opponent's military record?"

In recent memory - two...Slick Willie '92 and '96.

And you guys are batting two with W. '00 and '04.

Actually, you also ridiculed Danny Quayle over the National Guard back in '88.


Interesting pattern is that, thus far, it has been a LOSING issue for whoever invoked it.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 08:43 PM | PERMALINK

And that's it: Don't feed them any more. This is ridiculous. On with the discussion.

Posted by: peejay at February 9, 2004 08:44 PM | PERMALINK

Please don't feed the trolls, just hold on until Kevin IP bans them.

Posted by: The Centerfielder at February 9, 2004 08:44 PM | PERMALINK

There is absolutely no need to "IP ban" me. If he asks me to leave, I will do so.

Unlike you liberals, I respect the property rights of others, and this IS his site.

Posted by: Right-Wing Vegetarian at February 9, 2004 08:52 PM | PERMALINK

Tony, you don't know what you'd have done if you'd been around back then. The 60's & 70's were a nasty time (apart from the sex, drugs and rock & roll, of course).

I was in college from 1968-1972, and was fortunate not to have been drafted afterwards, but the prospect was there, and though I was born liberal (fifth-generation Democrat at a minimum) my plan for that eventuality was to enlist in the Navy. I took no steps to avoid that obscene war, against which I marched in protest at the time, other than conceiving an alternative in which I was unlikely to kill or be killed.

I have to wonder at accounts of how veterans of that war were abused after their return. Veterans were pretty common at Berkeley; one of my best friends served on the Enterprise. Most males thought then that some service would be required of us, and, since our fathers had served in WWII, we thought that we could probably at least survive it.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 08:55 PM | PERMALINK

Fool,

He was also born in New Haven, CT, I believe. Andover (cheerleader), Yale (Frat Boy), and Harvard Biz School.

His Family lives in Maine. Bush used to go there on vacation every year as well.

Now, I ask ya. How many REAL Texans do you know who were born in New England, and who vacation in Maine?

The man is a blue blooded Yankee through and through. That he feels the need to deny it, is interesting.

Posted by: Monkey at February 9, 2004 08:56 PM | PERMALINK

Back on topic:

1) The younger Bush needed to be a pilot, because his father was, but he wouldn't have made it in the Navy or the Air Force. The Guard's standards were lower, and they were politically malleable. (Rank speculation.)

2) Why did Dubya stop flying? Did he have a bad experience? Did he get scared? (This is a cowboy who doesn't do horses.) Alternatively: did he show up one day obviously unfit to fly?

None of my business, and there may be no way to find out. History is incredibly fragile. An old joke is that the one unforgiveable sin for a Stalinist historian was to try to predict the past.

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 09:04 PM | PERMALINK

charlie sez (love that good n' plenty! sorry...):
when Kerry releases all of his PRIVATE MILITARY RECORDS,

kerry has a private military? my goodness. that would be news.

Posted by: zeke L at February 9, 2004 09:44 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, Bad Jim,

After all the snark bombs on this thread, the one about the Stalinist historians was a great and hilarious relief. Got a real chuckle from this old lefty.

Many thanks.

Posted by: bobbyp at February 9, 2004 09:54 PM | PERMALINK

Yeh, some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son

Posted by: bad Jim at February 9, 2004 10:22 PM | PERMALINK

kevin,
Now that you're hot shit, you need to prune your comment threads. Once you start deleting RWV's posts as soon as they appear, he'll stop posting.
He definitely needs to be censored or banned.
By the way, did you guys notice that Josh Marshall thinks he might be able to outdo the FBI in the Niger forgery case? heh heh.
This will be interesting :)

Posted by: marky at February 9, 2004 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

bad Jim: I have to wonder at accounts of how veterans of that war were abused after their return.

There is some evidence to suggest that the ill-treatment of returning Vietnam vets is a myth, or at least a greatly exaggerated story.

http://www.mountainx.com/news/2003/0319troops.php

Posted by: Disinterested Observer at February 10, 2004 05:22 AM | PERMALINK

Glad to see that the Bush cult devotees have learned about the "copy" and "paste" shortcuts in their "Computers for Idiots" class.

Maybe they'll next be taught that the "on" switch also serves as the "off" switch - and will immediately use it.

Once off, hopefully with their high level of "intelligence" they'll then forget its dual function and revert back to masturbation.

Posted by: Jon at February 10, 2004 05:40 AM | PERMALINK

Bad Jim, I think you're on to something re: reasons Bush stopped flying. I've been making this and other points over on the AWOL thread on Tacitus, to little avail, although everyone has been very civil.

My guess? Bush submitted a kind of virtual DOR (dropped on request) two years into his flying commitment. DORs are typically submitted during training, as young men and women rethink the wisdom of flying high performance jet aircraft when law school is safer and more lucrative in the long run. But something may have happened to frighten him and make him question his skills. Loss of confidence is pretty deadly for a pilot, and if the stories of his recruitment are true, he was already in WAY over his head, just getting accepted.

What I think is most reprehensible fact (among the MANY reprehensible features of this story that Kevin has covered so well) is that after scoring a hugely expensive government-paid vacation, during wartime, in a safe stateside berth, Bush had no compunction about blowing off his service commitment. Was Vietnam a worthless war? Sure. But he received a priceless education (and deprived a more deserving recruit of the same) and then didn't give back.

This is a character and integrity issue--especially given Bush's eagerness thirty years later to send Americans into harm's way.

Don't get me started.

Posted by: PaxR55 at February 10, 2004 09:10 AM | PERMALINK

Oooops. "government-paid vacation"? I meant "education"--that expensive flight training.

Posted by: PaxR55 at February 10, 2004 09:24 AM | PERMALINK

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