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November 18, 2003 GAY MARRIAGE....Based on what I've read about "full faith and credit" I have my doubts that the Massachusetts decision to allow gay marriage will have any effect on the rest of the country. However, it will provide endless opportunities for Stanley Kurtz and John Derbyshire to write stupid but entertaining articles on the subject. In fact, the Derb has already started. In an effort to sound like a precocious Sunday School student, he poses two important questions today in The Corner:
Answers:
Expect further panic over the end of western civilization tomorrow, along with questions about whether Adam had a belly button and who Cain and Abel married. Posted by Kevin Drum at November 18, 2003 03:23 PM | TrackBackComments
Don't fight on the enemy's home turf. Civil Unions, not gay marriage. Posted by: adamsj at November 18, 2003 03:27 PM | PERMALINKI love how, when the Right thinks of us homos, the first thing that leaps to their minds is prison. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I think Derbyshire's probably been watching too much Oz. On his annulment question, however, he (inadvertently, I'm sure) points up one of the many good things for straight folks that could come out of gay marriage. The whole if-you-haven't-screwed-it's-not-really-a-marriage concept behind annulment seems to me utterly anachronistic, full of husbandly-prerogative sort of thinking, and should be scrapped everywhere it's still festering. As the Mass. SJC decision today makes quite clear, when you start talking about gay marriage it really forces to you to rethink all of the crap that's grown up around marriage and decide what's really the core, definitionally speaking, of marriage. The court said it was this: "We construe civil marriage to mean the voluntary union of two persons as spouses, to the exclusion of all others." Period. Posted by: Glenn at November 18, 2003 03:37 PM | PERMALINKWhat would constitute "consummation" ? Uh, I know that these folks like to keep their minds and eyes closed as often as possible, but it isn't like he REALLY doesn't know :) Posted by: dirty greek at November 18, 2003 03:37 PM | PERMALINKThe neanderthalic nature of certain "conservatives" never ceases to amaze me. You're being too nice, Kevin! The correct answers are: 1. No! Because they're prisoners, DUMB-ASS. Bring on the popcorn. Posted by: Ross Judson at November 18, 2003 03:42 PM | PERMALINK1. If "gay marriage" is legalized, will prisoners be able to marry their cell mates? If not, why not? A: Yes. Marriage is like prison, after all, so they would be well-suited. 2. In many jurisdictions, a marriage can be annulled if it has not been consummated. What, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage? A: Of course the boys at NRO's Corner knows it involved gerbils. Now they're just patronizing us. Posted by: nova silverpill at November 18, 2003 03:42 PM | PERMALINKThis is the time for every good, God-fearing conservative to take to the barricades. Our way of life is being attacked. State recognition of homosexual "unions" will erode the sacred institution of marriage beyond repair. Why, just the other day, my wife spoke to me in an unkind and non-submissive tone when I vomited on the couch and wet myself after drinking most of a bottle of cooking sherry. I'm quite certain that she only did so because of the negative influence of homosexuals who want to commit to each other. Or possibly it was the Jews. Anyway, now is the time to circle the wagons around our core conservative values. That means we need the central federal government to step in and regulate this issue and tell the states what to do. Massachussets, Vermont, Hawaii -- there is a clear and present danger that states will form their own policies based on their own local preferences and needs, almost as if they think the power to do so had been reserved or delegated to them. We must stamp out this "state's rights" nonsense before it gets out of hand. People simply must accept that a powerful and centralized federal government passing coercive rules is the best way to deal with these issues. Only then will core conservative values be respected. Posted by: Mr. Fed at November 18, 2003 03:47 PM | PERMALINKDemagogue has a good reference to a poll done in Massachusetts recently. This ruling may have something to do with the will of the people. Oh, I can hear it now; "those activist Leftist courts!" Posted by: Matt at November 18, 2003 03:48 PM | PERMALINKWhat would constitute "consummation" ? Uh, I know that these folks like to keep their minds and eyes closed as often as possible, but it isn't like he REALLY doesn't know :) Nah, this is a tactic the right uses all the time. They love describing gay sex in detail with all the medical terms. I heard a radio nut doing this awhile back. During the ordination of the gay Bishop, there was a proforma challenge and some bigot stood up and challenged him by graphically describing gay sex until cut off. Derbyshire's just playing by the talking points. Posted by: tristero at November 18, 2003 03:51 PM | PERMALINKIf this is because of the will of the people then why wasn't it put up to a vote? Posted by: Damon at November 18, 2003 03:52 PM | PERMALINKIf the republicans want to have gay marriages, we should let them have gay marriages. We should not deny them rights that normal people have. Posted by: chef at November 18, 2003 03:53 PM | PERMALINK. If "gay marriage" is legalized, will prisoners be able to marry their cell mates? If not, why not? 2. In many jurisdictions, a marriage can be annulled if it has not been consummated. What, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage? Why do I think Derbyshire has spent many an evening pondering these two questions at great length? Posted by: dave at November 18, 2003 03:53 PM | PERMALINKIf this is because of the will of the people then why wasn't it put up to a vote? Where on Earth did you get the idea that a court's responsibility is to poll the populace and enact their will? If a decision happens to match the will of the majority, well, happy day for the majority. Popularity is, however, neither neccesary nor sufficient. Observing that the majority does in fact support this decision is not at all the same thing as claiming that the decision flows from and depends upon that support. One suspects that you know this perfectly well and were just writing without thinking. Posted by: Laertes at November 18, 2003 03:57 PM | PERMALINKA few days ago O'Reiley was talkng about this, and said basically "courts need to stop making the law and start interpreting the law," yada yada yada. Wouldn't this ruling be exactly keeping with that? They have only said that discrimination is unconstitutional (who would have thought),and will allow Mass the opportunity to amend the constitution. The WaPo had a discussion with Peter Sprigg, director of the Center for Marriage and Family Studies at the Family Research Council which is actually enlightening. I had no idea that gay people were promiscuous drug addicts. Posted by: Squirrel at November 18, 2003 03:59 PM | PERMALINKA horrible thought: In many jurisdictions, a marriage can be annulled if it has not been consummated. What, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a Republican marriage? Yeeuch. Posted by: tristero at November 18, 2003 04:00 PM | PERMALINKWhat about Mary? Does this make Jesus a "bastard" cause they never did the dirty deed first? And how about we kill that lousy concept while we are at it. I hope David letterman will help, for his son's sake and others'. Posted by: obe at November 18, 2003 04:00 PM | PERMALINKSomeone should start keeping a list of the things that will end civilization as we know it, as defined by Santorum, Hatch, DeLay and their acolytes. Budget for lots of bandwidth. Posted by: Linkmeister at November 18, 2003 04:02 PM | PERMALINKWhat, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a Republican marriage? Let's ask Rick Santorum! Posted by: Hunter at November 18, 2003 04:02 PM | PERMALINKIf it is "civil union" instead of marriage I don't think a gay couple could file a joint federal tax return, for instance (not sure). But the point is that we have the word marriage all over our legal code. I guess one question, the most important one, is whether "gays" constitute a class (like blacks or jews or mormons) and then how protected a class they are. The US Supreme Court took a huge step recently in answering the question. If you can attack the "class" on marriage, why couldn't you deny gays the right to vote or own property? I can't answer that, and a lotta repubs, who sincerely wish they could, can't either. Posted by: bob mcmanus at November 18, 2003 04:03 PM | PERMALINKDid the decision really "allow gay marriage" or only overturn a law that prohibited gay marriage? Which begs the question, how can a legislature prohibit a civil act that it never permitted in the first place? Perhaps I should read the decision. Posted by: 537 votes at November 18, 2003 04:03 PM | PERMALINKAnd how exactly does one tell if a marriage has been consummated? I kept threatening my newly-wed wife with annulment, and she kept saying, "Yeah, but it's been consummated." My reply was always, "Hey, it's your word against mine!" Posted by: Stoffel at November 18, 2003 04:05 PM | PERMALINKSince "consummation" of a marraige is generally taken to mean having sex sometime after the ceremony, why does this constitute a problem in Derb's mind? He is aware, one hopes, that gay people sometimes have sex. Now when it comes to a man and woman who, for reasons of age or impairment of some kind, who can't have sex but want to marry, these laws could be a problem, I suppose. Why doesn't he dwell on that, much more intractable problem? Posted by: QrazyQat at November 18, 2003 04:05 PM | PERMALINKDon't fight on the enemy's home turf. Civil Unions, not gay marriage. A number of people looking at the Mass SJC ruling have suggested it may be stronger than the Vermont ruling on not amenable to a "civil unions" out. I'm personally not convinced by the excerpts I've seen pointed to, but haven't read the whole ruling. Posted by: cmdicely at November 18, 2003 04:08 PM | PERMALINKSince "consummation" of a marraige is generally taken to mean having sex sometime after the ceremony, why does this constitute a problem in Derb's mind? He is aware, one hopes, that gay people sometimes have sex. Under many states laws, what gay people do may be "sexual contact" or even (when consensual, non-criminal) "sodomy", but not, as a matter of law, "sex". If consummation is explicitly defined as requiring sexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse is legally defined in a narrowly heterosexual way, that does present something of an issue to deal with. Posted by: cmdicely at November 18, 2003 04:10 PM | PERMALINKThe correct answers are: In what state are prisoners forbidden to marry?
Ok the states get to define what "Marriage" (although DOMA is out there) and the federal govt uses each states definition to provide a tax break? Or does the tax code contain its own definition? Anyway, I think the Mass Court recognized that the word marriage is all over our body of law, and "legal unions" doesn't really hack it Posted by: bob mcmanus at November 18, 2003 04:14 PM | PERMALINKAm waiting to hear how amending various constitutions will reduce, say, the divorce rate, or the level of spousal abuse, or the increasing average age of marriage, or or or ... On another topic, since gay and lesbian men and women don't obsess about straight sex, why are so many straight people frothing and foaming about gay sex? Does it mean they're ... GAY?? What if the Stanley Kurtzes and John Derbyshires of the blogosphere are actually ... GAY?? I think there needs to be a lot of discussion about whether their behavior indicates that they might be ... GAY. If it is "civil union" instead of marriage I don't think a gay couple could file a joint federal tax return, for instance (not sure). But the point is that we have the word marriage all over our legal code. Bingo. Or in other words, what part of separate but equal don't you understand? Posted by: David W. at November 18, 2003 04:22 PM | PERMALINKAm waiting to hear how amending various constitutions will reduce, say, the divorce rate, That ought to be easily fixable via changes to the law. Eliminating "no fault" divorce would do it. More drastically, eliminating divorce entirely would do it. Whether these are good things, of course, is a separate issue. Posted by: cmdicely at November 18, 2003 04:24 PM | PERMALINK"In what state are prisoners forbidden to marry?" Prisoners don't have the same rights as the rest of us--that's why they're prisoners. The Constitution forbids us from taking people's rights without due process of law, but conviction after a criminal trial IS due process of law. Now, that doesn't mean that prisoners are completely without rights. But one legitimate area in which prisoner's rights ARE limited relates to good order and security in the institution. My recollection is that there are cases which say that sodomy among inmates can be forbidden in the interests of institutional order and security. That doesn't sound likely to be a controversial position, frankly. Posted by: rea at November 18, 2003 04:25 PM | PERMALINKUnder many states laws, what gay people do may be "sexual contact" or even (when consensual, non-criminal) "sodomy", but not, as a matter of law, "sex". If consummation is explicitly defined as requiring sexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse is legally defined in a narrowly heterosexual way, that does present something of an issue to deal with. It does if you're Catholic perhaps, but U.S. civil marriage doesn't care at all about such matters. At least, no one from the state has made sure I consumated my marriage with my wife. Yet. Posted by: David W. at November 18, 2003 04:25 PM | PERMALINKI would be genuinely disturbed (in a libertarian sort of way) if the government made claims that it was entitled to know exactly what a married couple do when they have sex. On further points, see the Plaid Adder on gay marriage and why Republicans are against it: "They Hate Us Because of Our Freedoms". It does if you're Catholic perhaps, but U.S. civil marriage doesn't care at all about such matters. It does if you seek a legal annulment, rather than divorce. Or at
least in some states. California, for instance, appears not to care
about actual consummation, but about being "physically able to enter the
marriage state". My recollection is that there are cases which say that sodomy among inmates can be forbidden in the interests of institutional order and security. That doesn't sound likely to be a controversial position, frankly. Marriage may, in some states, require sex to be consummated and, therefore, be subject to annulment without it; it is not the same thing as sex. Posted by: cmdicely at November 18, 2003 04:50 PM | PERMALINKIt does if you seek a legal annulment, rather than divorce. Or at least in some states. California, for instance, appears not to care about actual consummation, but about being "physically able to enter the marriage state". Ah, so you *do* get brownie points for being the proper biological sex, at least in some states it seems. Whether you choose to have sex is of course not the issue. Which to me seems to be the rub, no? Or is procreation the sine qua non of marriage then? (If so, I presume that birth control is therefore against the law... ;-) Posted by: David W. at November 18, 2003 05:02 PM | PERMALINKGay raises an important point. You go, John Isbell! Could someone dig up that incredible Mark Morford Column on canada and gay marriage. It was the first thing of his I'd ever read and it was screamingly, wonderfully, on target for the hysterical tone of the right wing nuts on this subject. Something that people may forget, nor not know, is that the CAtholic Church, in its heyday, *did* inquire into the consummation of marriages and did investigate people--specifically men--for impotence and failure to perform their sexual duties within marriage. Can't find the book I read on this, but it was an ordinary (ok, french) scholarly work on the subject of sexual inquisitions and trials of people's sexuality. The right wing seems obsessivly interested in other people's sex lives now--but they always have been. Posted by: aimai at November 18, 2003 05:25 PM | PERMALINKYou mean this, aimai? About Lawrence, that is... Here comes the radical notion. Here is where hard-core anti-lib conservatives snicker and roll their eyes and point and scowl about "goddamn liberals" and their "new-age tree-hugging commie-tofu crapola" and clutch their military portfolios and crank up the Toby Keith to numb the pain. Because this ruling isn't just a victory for gays. It isn't merely a victory for those seeking to advance the idea of gay marriage, or gay adoption, or "deviant" sexual activity (read: anything other than two minutes in the missionary position with a DustBuster and a copy of "Left Behind," per the Christian right), or even a victory for basic human rights for all sexual orientations in this nation. It is, quite simply, a stunning and rather unexpected victory for the spirit, for the heart, for the body, for the very notion that we as a humble and chaotic and distressed species can actually progress almost despite ourselves, despite a famously oppressive and uptight leadership, despite reams of deceit and war and John Ashcroft's sad nipple fetish. This is a crazed wildflower bursting through a concrete sidewalk. This is a breath of fresh air after smoking four packs of toxic disinformation a day for the past three years. This is the unexpected royal flush when all you've been dealt to date are jokers and suicide kings. And, for proof, we need only look to the Trent Lotts and Rick Santorums and Bill Frists of the Right's political oligarchy, the sneering Republican apocalyptics who are right this minute scrunched and apoplectic and immediately proposing a major change to the U.S. Constitution to block gay marriage forever, to try and protect the "sanctity" of God-given man/woman missionary-position 50-percent-divorce-rate marriage in this country. To protect it from, well, they don't know what, exactly, but it's something very, very icky and scary and it's coming for their sons and daughters right now and it reeks of lavender and honey and butch haircuts and tattoos and it loves to wear glitter and Versace and to sing. They want to actually change the U.S. Constitution. This is how terrified they are. This is how utterly embittered and out of touch and absolutely determined they are to keep this nation under the callused thumb of religious dogma and free of anything resembling orgasmic delight and karmic evolution. And this is how you know. When those whose sole agenda is to promote the tyranny of fear and violently misinterpret the Bible for their own acidic agenda are themselves horrified and running scared, there has been a gorgeous breakthrough. Maybe it's this. Maybe this case signifies the deeper acknowledgment of our purpose on the planet, the subtle realization that God, that the divine, is not, in fact, separate from the flesh, is not something to be dreaded and guilted by and wielded like a bloody sanctimonious sword by born-again presidents and sexless attorney generals and snickering foreign despots. In other words, maybe this is not, as the GOP so desperately wants everyone to believe, about icky "deviant" sex and unholy gay marriage and blasphemous anal-sex toys at all. Maybe the change is about the potency of love. About the natural explorations of love in nature, of human relationships and the freedom to explore and let love penetrate our lives and make the divine into something we can touch, taste, slide into and, ultimately, incarnate. Oh my heavens. No wonder the conservative Right is aghast and atwitter. No wonder the Death Star is panicky and sweaty and flagellating itself. Because the divine is winking in our general direction. And, this time, it looks like we just might wink back. Posted by: David W. at November 18, 2003 05:45 PM | PERMALINK . . . this is a tactic the right uses all the time. They love
describing gay sex in detail with all the medical terms. I heard a radio
nut doing this awhile back. The GOP's spent the last decade or two (and millions in public funds) establishing itself as the Prurience Party. Even het, sexually vanilla, married couples must be creeped-out by this smutty nosiness posing as morality--surely there's a way for the Dems to turn it back on its perpetrators? Posted by: Molly, NYC at November 18, 2003 05:50 PM | PERMALINKEven het, sexually vanilla, married couples must be creeped-out by this smutty nosiness posing as morality--surely there's a way for the Dems to turn it back on its perpetrators? Two words: Oral sex. (It does exist for heterosexuals, you know.) Posted by: David W. at November 18, 2003 05:55 PM | PERMALINKKevin, Prisoners may not be able to marry their guards. I've found this in a syllabus: Keeney v. Heath 7th Cir.1995?-- Here, in this case, it was a prisoner involved in a romantic relationship with a female guard. There was a legitimate state interest in burdening her constitutional right to marry because of the security issues involved. Yeah, I know you were joking, but it's worth noting, as we're going to hear a lot of Derb's kind of "argument" in the days to come. I think your answer to question #2 was much better than mine -- more succinct, certainly, and more in keeping with the spirit of the occasion. Posted by: roy edroso at November 18, 2003 06:00 PM | PERMALINKThe state recognizes a marriage as a civil contract and spells out the rights and legal obligations of those who enter into it. All states allow the ceremony to be performed either by a civil authority (judge or commissioner) or by a clergyperson of any faith. The issue is whether the system of rights and obligations (which consititutes a benefit, because it is enforceable in court and automatic, not requiring a separate contract to be drawn up spelling out all these things) can be denied to persons because of the gender of their chosen partner. It is about equal rights or, more properly, equal access to a system of rights and obligations. Hello--gays can get married right now in many churches, so its NOT about "marriage as a sacred institution." But the state does not recognize these unions, nor cangays enter into a purely civil union except in a few satates. This is why its ok to either set up a parallel system of civil unions that covers all the rights and obligations that the state has authority over (but not federal taxes) or to define marriage as including persons of the same gender. To me the winning argument is to push for civil unions in those states that will allow it, rather than push for an acceptance of gay marriage. I understand that this is, in some sense, "separate but equal," but it is more persuasive to push for equal access to a state-sponsored system of rights and obligations, than to sound like we are trying to require churches to marry gays. Once civil unions are established, then the pressure on the feds increases. I frankly don't care whether I am "accepted" by straight society (or anyone else for that matter), but would like access to benefits on an equal basis. Posted by: Mimikatz at November 18, 2003 06:04 PM | PERMALINK"1. If "gay marriage" is legalized, will prisoners be able to marry their cell mates? If not, why not?" Derb is clearly an Oz fan and dreams of marrying Chris Meloni. Get it line, Queen! "A: Yes. Marriage is like prison, after all, so they would be well-suited." And if Rush gets convicted and sent to the slammer then he may finally get a marriage that works. "2. In many jurisdictions, a marriage can be annulled if it has not been consummated. What, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage?" "A: Of course the boys at NRO's Corner knows it involved gerbils. Now they're just patronizing us." Well at least they got THAT right! I guess Derb is implying that sodomy and oral sex really don't count as sex. If that's the case, then Clinton never had sex with that intern. So we should ask Derb, why was the president impeached? Posted by: Staunch Moderate at November 18, 2003 06:36 PM | PERMALINKWould you rather say gay marriage or get civil unions? Do you really care about religious rites--which some churches already perform anyway--more than civil rights? Posted by: adamsj at November 18, 2003 06:47 PM | PERMALINKFor the last time, Bart: the ventriloquist goes to heaven, but the dummy does not. Posted by: DonBoy at November 18, 2003 07:10 PM | PERMALINKDavid W., What John Isbell said. In spades. John Isbell, I'll give you one gay marriage and raise you a Governor's signature. Posted by: clio at November 18, 2003 07:26 PM | PERMALINKStop The Gay Canadians! URL: sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/06/20/notes062003.DTL Hordes of quivering GOP lawmakers and vast throngs of proudly homophobic right-wing Christian Americans fell into an adorable tizzy the other day as the entire really, really big country of Canada announced it will change its law to allow full-on homosexual marriage anywhere in the whole country including Vancouver and Toronto and even "that weird province with all the gay French people." Hysteria and open weeping and panicky looks accompanied the uncontrollable overeating of many stale Ding-Dongs, as millions of sexually confused Bush-ites and members of self-righteous Bible-icious anti-everything groups like the American Family Association, along with entire towns such as Colorado Springs, were absolutely certain the world was coming to an end, like, immediately. I mean, Canada's right next door!
"I don't really know what this means, what it represents, what it entails, what gay people stand for, where they come from or what they do or why they do it or how they become that way in the first place or even if they're allowed to vote or fly in airplanes," announced a very trembly George W. Bush at a hastily arranged press conference in the Super Mega Hetero Gun Room of the White House. "But I do know we won't stand for it, and if these gul-dang furriner evildoers think they can get away with these kinds of tender unions and hand holdings and loving smiles and beautiful intimate commitments, well, they haven't seen America's righteous firepower!" he shouted, pounding his cute little fist on the podium. "We shall prevail!" Then he fainted. Karl Rove, Bush's master strategist and known devourer of live puppies and breeder of the administration's swarms of evil flying monkeys, briefly waddled into the sunlight to quickly introduce the bitchin' catchphrase "Wussies of Mass Destruction" into the GOP lexical armament. Rove also pointed out, just before the tiny demon leeches sucked away what remained of his shriveled soul, how Canada's wicked WMD decision probably meant there were similar latent gay terrorist revolutions ready to burst all over Antarctica and Poland and probably Latvia like some sticky-smooth lubricating substance, and they must be stopped before the world is "converted" and we all end up getting regular pedicures and drinking white wine and belting out the words to "Cabaret" as we cruise around in our purple Miatas. "As far as I'm told, Canada actually borders our fine upstanding nation," Bush managed to continue, after being hoisted upright, as a paler-than-usual Dick Cheney whispered desperately into Bush's ear while Lynne frantically tried to dissuade their secret lesbian daughter from splitting for Saskatchewan with her lover on the next flight out. "This means we as a country are actually touching a bunch of gay married people right this very minute! Look at this map! It's like an adjacency thing! Like some sort of weird tidal wave of gay Canadian people in love, just waiting up north to ride big pink buses down here and open chains of well-appointed little erotic chocolate boutiques and buy up all the Cher Farewell Tour tickets. This will not do!" Already, America's perspective has been affected. In a shocking new poll, fully 41 percent of Americans now believe the terrorists responsible for the 9/11 tragedy were, in fact, gay married Canadians. Similarly, 23 percent are now convinced Saddam Hussein was either "somewhat" or "almost totally" Canadian. Or gay. Or a member of Loverboy. AG John Ashcroft, no stranger to uptight asexual homophobic hyper-Christian puling and all too familiar with looking exactly like he just swallowed a pleasure-ribbed condom filled with boiling road tar, was seen running around the Hall of Justice smacking a heavy King James Bible against his skull and dousing himself with buckets of holy anointing oil, just before running smack into the bronze left nipple of the swathed statue of Lady Justice and knocking himself cold.
Donny Rumsfeld, feeling that a nice brutal unprovoked "regime change" in Canada was, of course, long overdue, immediately called for an insanely violent air assault to be quickly followed by an exhaustive deadly ground invasion on Canadian lumberjacks, one that positively reeks of bogus misinformation and lies and pain and hate and a wildly expensive military probe into the whole hockey thing. "A really, really long metal fence is what I endorse," oozed House majority leader and noted closet Village People megafan Tom DeLay, between tongue baths from his personal herd of mildly narcotized French poodles. And Dennis Hastert. "You know, a big strong fence studded all over with those really sharp barb-wire stickler thingies? Like the kind they use on those leather dog collars? The thick black ones with the snaps that feel all tight around your ankles? And you can't help but squirm and moan and get all giddy?" he continued before falling into a fit of uncontrolled swooning. In the state of Texas except for Austin which everyone knows is surprisingly cool despite how it's in, you know, Texas, where you still cannot legally buy a dildo or engage in homosexual sex but they pretty much hand you a nice big phallic shotgun as a welcome gift when you visit, the legislature immediately passed a law requiring each and every male to smack any other male they see really hard on the back and buy him a pitcher of bad beer in a manly gesture of football-lovin' patriotic homoerotically repressed solidarity. Reaction was heated. Viewpoints clashed. Families bickered. Birds flew. Countries sighed. The U.N. napped. Belgians shrugged. Macy's had a big sale. Love exhaled. The air was thick with tension. Conservatives were stupefied. The religious right, so accustomed to viewing big scary cities like San Francisco and Amsterdam as debauched hedonistic Sodom-a-raffic pleasure palaces to be avoided like a good book or a genuine orgasm or an original thought, suddenly took one look at a map of the world and noticed the size of Canada and went, holy crap. Pat Robertson quietly dreamed of marrying Jerry Falwell. Everyone openly dreamed of pimp-slapping Franklin Graham. Wal-Marts in Canada were forced to carry issues of Bust and Honcho. Strangely, sales of Jackhammer Jesus dildos increased a hundredfold. Mostly in Texas. Meanwhile, the rest of the largely benevolent and open-hearted and divinely attuned polyamorous universe just laughed and nodded very, very approvingly at Canada and said, well Jesus with a riding crop and a rainbow flag, it's about goddamn time, you know? Posted by: tek at November 18, 2003 07:33 PM | PERMALINKWhat, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage? You don't want to know. Really. Hmmmm, a quick scan of the XXX websites indicates that there's a whole lot of interest in how we lesbians "consummate" our marriages. So I guess we're okay for porn, but if we want to have a have a family together, we're not worthy. Posted by: gia at November 18, 2003 07:59 PM | PERMALINKIf "gay marriage" is legalized, will prisoners be able to marry their cell mates? If not, why not? Ummm . . . well . . .
Seriously, who cares? Would that undermine the entire punitive/rehabilitative purpose of the institution? If so, how? If some, poor pathetic prisoner, who is there for life without being charged of a crime, nor without recourse to a lawyer, much less a trial, simply because he or she has been branded a "terrorist" under the Patriot Act, and they want to marry their cellmate because it provides some sort of spiritual, emotional or physical well-being, well, then, I ask again . . . WHO GIVES A SHIT? Look, over there . . . another distraction. Posted by: Brautigan at November 18, 2003 08:08 PM | PERMALINKWhat, exactly, constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage? Reminds me of when I was a teenager (about 25-30 years ago) and I read an article in my mother's Redbook magazine in which the author wondered "what exactly do homosexuals do?" and I thought "duh . . ." Posted by: Frederick at November 18, 2003 08:19 PM | PERMALINKIf it wasn't for the fact that millions of gay couples in this "free" country are discrimenitated against and CAN'T marry the person they love because of the Christian Right's view of marriage, I'd laugh with the rest of you. That Happy Chica, :) Have you guys looked at the candidates' statements? Bush supports "the sanctity of marriage" and will take action against the decision. Clark gives a weakly worded statement kind of applauding the decision but indicating, though not in so many words, his support for DOMA. Gephardt, Lieberman, Kerry, and Edwards all include an "although I oppose gay marriage" disclaimer. Dean includes no such disclaimer, though he does not endorse hay marriage either--"One way or another, the state should afford same-sex couples equal treatment under law." More here: I wonder if anyone has done the electoral math regarding the gay population? What % of the electorate is gay, and how active are they politically? I'd bet that if the GOP was confronted with numbers that showed the gay populace represents a significant voting demographic, then "core values" and "conservative principles" would go out the window in a heartbeat. Posted by: peter jung at November 18, 2003 09:19 PM | PERMALINKI guess we should send Derbyshire and the rest of the Corner crew a copy of the Paris Hilton sex tape so that these macho, red-blooded, god-fearing conservative males have something to think about other than the 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' crew having sex. Posted by: John Lotts Calculator at November 18, 2003 09:19 PM | PERMALINK>...What, exactly,constitutes "consummation" of a gay marriage? I believe one could say, borrowing language from the UCMJ, "...penetration, however slight, is sufficent..." Posted by: daCascadian at November 18, 2003 09:54 PM | PERMALINKI am wondering why you doubt that the Massachusetts decision would
not have an effect in the rest of the country eventually, and why you
think the Constitutional Full Faith and Credit rule would not apply
(much as it did to interracial marriages in the 1960s)? David W.: beautiful. Thank you. peter jung: Dick Cheney's daughter Mary is gay. And has a partner. And the Log Cabin Republicans have existed for a quite a while. So it's not that Republicans don't know about gay people, it's just that as a party, they hate them. Black people tend to vote Democrat, because Republicans are rightly
perceived as the racist party. Republicans, sooner than change their
institutional racism, prefer (as we see in Florida in the 2000 election,
and as we see in Kentucky more recently) to attempt to ban black people
from voting. They'd probably do the same with gay people, if they had
an instant means of identifying sexuality at the poll or on the register
of voters. Thanks all, but thank Mark Morford, not me. I failed to make it clear that was from one of his fine columns. Very fine, indeed. Posted by: David W. at November 19, 2003 04:27 AM | PERMALINKThe MA constitution cannot be amended in less than two years, which is longer than the 180 days that the SJC stayed its decision. There is no federal issue, since the SJC based its decision on the state constitution. Accordingly, there is no appeal to the US SupCt. Posted by: raj at November 19, 2003 04:41 AM | PERMALINKBTW, if Derb really was interested in knowing about how gay people might consummate their marriages, he should rent some gay porn. Ooops, maybe he has. It's interesting the extent to which the homophobes are so interested in what gay people do in bed. Maybe they are dissatisfied with their heterosex and secretly wonder if homosex might be better. Posted by: raj at November 19, 2003 05:21 AM | PERMALINKpeter jung: Blacks comprise 15% of the electorate, but you don't see the GOP changing its core values to embrace them. Suppress their turnout and rape their civil rights, yes; embrace, no. Posted by: phil at November 19, 2003 05:46 AM | PERMALINKThe MA constitution cannot be amended in less than two years, which is longer than the 180 days that the SJC stayed its decision. There is no federal issue, since the SJC based its decision on the state constitution. Accordingly, there is no appeal to the US SupCt. Yes, there is a federal issue. All states have to recognize marriages legal in the state in which they were performed. If a gay/lesbian couple from Texas gets married in Mass., that marriage is valid in Texas, or should be. That will be the way the issue gets to the US Supreme court. Posted by: steve at November 19, 2003 06:59 AM | PERMALINKOh, Republicans, most of 'em, do embrace blacks. As people who just happen to be black, not a distinct class entitled to different treatment. The problem is they're still hung up on the original concept of civil rights, that they've championed since the 1860's. You know, strict legal equality? And whether you succeed or fail is entirely up to you? That whole "content of your character" thing is so passe... LOL Incidentally, gun owners comprise at least twice the percentage of the population as blacks, we're virtually all qualified to vote, and the Democratic party doesn't seem to be in any hurry to change it's core values to accomidate US. If you ever do, the Republicans might never elect another President. Posted by: Brett Bellmore at November 19, 2003 07:11 AM | PERMALINK"Yes, there is a federal issue. All states have to recognize marriages legal in the state in which they were performed. If a gay/lesbian couple from Texas gets married in Mass., that marriage is valid in Texas, or should be. That will be the way the issue gets to the US Supreme court." I suppose I should have said that there is no federal issue on which the Mass court decision could be reversed, but I thought that should have been obvious. If TX does not want to recognize a same-sex marriage from MA, the constitutionality of requiring TX to would be an issue appealable to the US Sup Ct. But there is no basis for appeal to the US SupCt in connection with the MA case. Posted by: raj at November 19, 2003 07:17 AM | PERMALINKWouldn't it be great if Derbyshire were thrown in prison and "gang-consummated" as an answer to his question? Posted by: The Fool at November 19, 2003 07:45 AM | PERMALINKSpeaking of the "how do gay people consumate their marriage?" question, Jeff Jacoby actually had an editoral in the Boston Globe this week in which he looked at the recent New Hampshire Supreme Court decision that said that gay sex didn't count as adultery and concluded that if gay "sex" doesn't count for adultery, it wouldn't count for marriage either. Personally, I don't see how conservatives can criticize gay people
from being promiscuous if gayu "sex" isn't actually "having sex". If
it's not sex, then it's not promiscuity - it's just being extremely
friendly. Y'all are trying to make this political, but it is more than that, it is personal. A few minutes ago my wife of 20 odd years called and said she heard about this on NPR, and since the 'sanctity' of our marriage is now gone, there is nothing left to it and she is off to the Bahamas with the pool boy. So while I'm at home tonight eating Stouffer's I'm gonna be blaming the Bravo network and watching Fox News! So there! Posted by: Tripp at November 19, 2003 09:02 AM | PERMALINKPersonally, I don't see how conservatives can criticize gay people from being promiscuous if gayu "sex" isn't actually "having sex". If it's not sex, then it's not promiscuity - it's just being extremely friendly. To that brand of conservatives, its neither "sex" nor "being extremely friendly", its "crimes against nature", only a half-step removed from "man-on-dog". Posted by: cmdicely at November 19, 2003 09:02 AM | PERMALINKWould you rather say gay marriage or get civil unions? Do you really care about religious rites--which some churches already perform anyway--more than civil rights? Marriage -- the kind the legal/political debate is about -- is a civil institution which, unlike "civil unions" established by a particular state, brings recognition in all states and by the federal government, and includes state and federal benefits. It has nothing to do with the religious institution of the same name, except that states generally allow, but do not require, certain religious ministers and institutions to perform some role on behalf of the state, as an alternative to public officers, in the recognition of the union, which is often combined with religious rites. However, any rule allowing gay marriage would not compel any religion to recognize or solemnize gay marriage, just as the current laws allowing divorcees to remarry don't compel the Catholic Church to perform weddings for them, or recognize their marriages as sacramentally valid. Posted by: cmdicely at November 19, 2003 09:09 AM | PERMALINKOh, Republicans, most of 'em, do embrace blacks. As people who just happen to be black, not a distinct class entitled to different treatment. The problem is they're still hung up on the original concept of civil rights, that they've championed since the 1860's. You know, strict legal equality? And whether you succeed or fail is entirely up to you? Heh. Brett, the idea that Republicans believe in treating black people equally with white people is just too ludicrous even to be really funny. Posted by: Jesurgislac at November 19, 2003 09:14 AM | PERMALINKSorry. Obviously, some Republicans do believe in racial
equality. However, their lack of public outrage at their party's
consistent attempts to defranchise black voters says that they're not
prepared to put their money where their mouth is. When I see a movement
within the Republican party to censure Jeb Bush for his racist
actions in Florida, I'll believe that the Republican party is no longer
the racist party. And also a remark on Barbour and the CCC photo-op in MS might be
nice. The woman in LA may have got the redneck racist vote, but Barbour
campaigned for it. And the GOP was mute. What a freaking surprise that
was. I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Republicans have been trying to disenfranchise blacks. Disenfranchise felons, sure, but that's a "law and order" thing, not a matter of racism. I might even be sympathetic to it, were it not for felony inflation. And, granted, they're pretty unsympathetic towards people who disenfranchise themselves, by failing to register on time, or filling out their ballot wrong. I tend to agree with that; Chosing our public officials is an important civic responsiblity, and we're better off without people who are that careless about voting. But, with respect to your specific allegation, Jeb Bush doesn't, and didn't, have the power to disenfranchise anybody. Anybody who got taken off the voting rolls had it done by a local election official. And if you check into that notorious list, you'll find that it was distributed as a list of names which were to be INVESTIGATED, not purged. Some officials blew off the list and illegally let disqualified people vote, some officials didn't bother to investigate, and illegally took qualified voters off the rolls, but none of those officials were named "Jeb Bush". A lot of them were, ironically, Democrats. By the way, speaking of "outrage", you suppose we could see a little more Democratic outrage at YOUR party's habit of enfranchising illegal aliens and poodles? Posted by: Brett Bellmore at November 19, 2003 09:45 AM | PERMALINKBut, with respect to your specific allegation, Jeb Bush doesn't, and didn't, have the power to disenfranchise anybody. Not legally, no. In practice, yes, he certainly did, and used that power effectively. Posted by: Jesurgislac at November 19, 2003 10:22 AM | PERMALINKOh, yeah, the infamous Civil Rights commission report, where the Republican members were barred from participation, and allegations were treated as proven fact. You're really trying hard to persuade the dubious here. "There are no permanent majority or minority factions within the United States Commission on Civil Rights. Nor does the Commission issue majority or minority reports." Well, not when Berry has to power to silence the minority, anyway... Point is, both major parties have a serious problem with their laser like focus on the mote in the other's eye, to the exclusion of the beam in their own. The Republicans have Barbour, you've got Sharpton. Republicans are a bit too enthusiastic at times about purging the voter rolls, Democrats about making sure the dead aren't denied their opportunity to vote. Neither party has a monopoly on virtue or vice. Thankfully, I'm a Libertarian. Might even vote Democratic if you guys had any respect for the 2nd amendment... Posted by: Brett Bellmore at November 19, 2003 10:41 AM | PERMALINKThe 2nd Ammendment? Hey, if you want to stick a revolver in your mouth and pull the trigger don't let ME stop you! Posted by: David Ehrenstein at November 19, 2003 10:49 AM | PERMALINKAnyone interested in seeing Brett's allegations ripped to shreds over
about 100 pages, with these things they call documents, is welcome to
read the start of Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy." In any case, the point is: the typical Republican reaction to discovering that a class of people prefers to vote Democrat because Republicans discriminate against them is not to quit practicing discrimination, but to try and stop that class of people from voting. ;-) Posted by: Jesurgislac at November 19, 2003 11:02 AM | PERMALINK"The 2nd Ammendment? Hey, if you want to stick a revolver in your mouth and pull the trigger don't let ME stop you!" God, that makes me feel so guilty about voting Republican... I don't know how I'll live with myself. At least the DLC realizes it's necessary to pretend not to despise people whose votes you need. Not that they do so successfully, but they're trying. Posted by: Brett Bellmore at November 19, 2003 12:33 PM | PERMALINKDerbyshire writes that "In many jurisdictions, a marriage can be annulled if it has not been consummated." Maybe it can, but that doesn't mean it has to be. The decision actually cites an earlier ruling saying so: "People who have never consummated their marriage, and never plan to, may be and stay married. See Franklin v. Franklin, 154 Mass. 515, 516 (1891) ('The consummation of a marriage by coition is not necessary to its validity')." And thank you, thank you, Staunch Moderate, for pointing this out: "I guess Derb is implying that sodomy and oral sex really don't count as sex. If that's the case, then Clinton never had sex with that intern." Hah! And don't forget one N. Gingrich, who pulled exactly the same trick with _his_ mistress, for exactly the same reason. About prisoner marriage: what would be so terrible about prisoners marrying their cell-mates? And whatever the restrictions on prisoners' rights, they CAN marry. One reads frequently of prisoners sweet-talking women by phone and mail, and getting them to marry them. My wife's sister actually did this: she married a man who's in life imprisonment for murder. Later she came to her senses and divorced him, but they were legally married. Posted by: Simon at November 19, 2003 01:39 PM | PERMALINKI've always been a big fan of film noir. And one of my favorite lines from Roman Polanski's classic "Chinatown" comes at the point when a pillar of 1930s' L.A. society, Noah Cross (John Huston), is forced by private investigator Jake Giddes (Jack Nicholson) to admit culpability for first fathering a child by his then-15-year-old daughter, and later murdering his son-in-law, whom he determined was protecting that child from his obsessive effort to find her. The aging Mr. Cross answers the PI's accusation in an elegantly understated yet clearly menacing tone: "I don't blame myself. You see, Mr. Giddes, most people never face the fact that -- given the right time and right circumstance -- they are capable of anything ..." Thus, John Huston neatly summed up the dilemma facing so-called average Americans over the prospect of recognizing the legality (and hence the reality) of same-gender personal relationships. Their irrational reaction stems from their fear of their own latent (not to be confused with "dormant") but heretofore-suppressed primieval instincts concerning sex. And when it comes to sex, Americans are consummately neo-Victorian, in that most won't like confronting their own personal demons. I consider sexual repression to be probably the single biggest cause of sexual deviancy in America today -- and for a good example of the type of deviancy I'm talking about, you can't top the quasi-pornographic legal brief (cigar, anyone?)that was issued by uptight Ken Starr in 1997. When it comes to personal relationships between consenting adults, if it doesn't concern me directly, it's none of my goddamn business. And I'd like to keep it that way, thank you very much. Posted by: Donald at November 19, 2003 06:49 PM | PERMALINK"At least the DLC realizes it's necessary to pretend not to despise people whose votes you need. " They make little pretense when it comes to despising Democrats. As do you. "Libertarians" are simply National Socialists with a happy face. Posted by: David Ehrenstein at November 19, 2003 07:18 PM | PERMALINKPeople are right to point out that civil unions, as in Vermont, don't give every right that marriage does. I can't disagree that the Massachusetts decision goes farther and is better, assuming it stays in place. That's the ideal outcome--I'm rooting for it. Whether it will stay in place or not is up in the air. Massachusetts is a very liberal state. It's also a very Catholic state, and the church will fight this fiercely. I'm not overly optimistic about the final outcome. Let's say I'm right to be pessimistic and that this decision somehow gets nullified. What then? Someone in a civil union is eventually going to take the Vermont law to the IRS (or to some other federal agency) and claim the right to file as married. That will go to the courts and, if that case were in the Supreme Court today, it'd have a good chance of winning. I don't understand why this court is sympathetic to gay rights--it's not particularly liberal in most ways--but it is, and getting a decision from it that giving civil unions the same standing as marriage is doable. The Massachusetts decision is better, though--it's a straight shot from there to full faith and credit, and then it's over. If the Massachusetts decision holds. Let's see what happens. Posted by: adamsj at November 19, 2003 08:44 PM | PERMALINKStaunch Moderate wrote: Damn you! You beat me to it! And aimai wrote: Did it not have something to do with examining the marriage bed to make sure blood was present, indicating hymenal penetration? 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