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September 18, 2003

DAMN SHAME....Andrew Sullivan is a peculiar person, isn't he? Or is it that he just assumes his readers don't know how to click a hyperlink? Here he is today on the BBC/Kelly/Gilligan/Hutton inquiry affair:

Check out this devastating analysis of the BBC's fabrications about the Blair government. It's all the more damning for appearing in the ultra-left newspaper, the Independent. Blair won't be undamaged by this whole affair. But the credibility of the BBC is in tatters.

Now, it's true that Andrew Gilligan isn't looking too good these days, although, as Sullivan notes, neither are Blair and his advisors. But is the Independent's analysis "damning"?

In a word, no. They rightly take Gilligan to task for some specific exaggerations and errors, but then say this:

The 45-minute claim "was included in the dossier against our wishes, because it wasn't reliable. Most things in the dossier were double source, but that was single source, and we believed that the source was wrong"

This, the guts of the Gilligan claim, has been vindicated by the inquiry evidence. The inquiry heard this week that a memo was written on behalf of the DIS by Dr Brian Jones, head of its WMD section, objecting to the claim as it appeared in the dossier. Dr Jones and his chemical expert wrote further formal complaints.

"The guts of the Gilligan claim has been vindicated by the inquiry evidence."

This is damning?

Posted by Kevin Drum at September 18, 2003 11:52 AM | TrackBack


Comments

For another thing, The Independent is not an ultra left newspaper. The Guardian/Observer, sure, but the Independent simply is not. Centrist/Left-ish, yeah, sure, but definitively not ultra left. I don't get it; Sullivan is British, surely he knows this...

Posted by: Sullivan's dumb at September 18, 2003 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

For another thing, The Independent is not an ultra left newspaper. The Guardian/Observer, sure, but the Independent simply is not. Centrist/Left-ish, yeah, sure, but definitively not ultra left. I don't get it; Sullivan is British, surely he knows this...

Posted by: Sullivan's dumb at September 18, 2003 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Is Sullivan really worth paying attention to? Just curious to know what makes his spin all that important. I don't read his stuff myself so perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Posted by: David W. at September 18, 2003 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

Since Andrew Sullivan is demonstrably queer, I think we can resolve the question of his peculiarness easily with a thesaurus.

Posted by: phil at September 18, 2003 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

I used to read his stuff, but after I while I just decided it was all drivel. He is a shameless shill for Bushco, and I just don't get it; the GOP hates gays. Every once in awhile, Sully affects a posture that shows some mild disapproval of Bushco, but quickly reverts to a sycophantic worship of this decisive, brilliant military strategerist (that Flypaper stuff is brilliant), declaring that, sure, Bush is fiscally irresponsible, socially intolerant, but by golly, those feckless democrats are somehow six times worse on the fiscal situation, and let's not even talk about National Security--they just don't get it (noting, approvingly, that 70% of the public DOES get it when they see Saddam behind 9.11).

Sullivan is a hack. Pay him no mind.

Posted by: Former Sully Reader at September 18, 2003 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

This is just like the kind of chain letter that quotes a law that it says makes its type of chain letter legal; if you ever look up the citation, you see that it says that form of chain letter is illegal.

There's a food born every minute. Why shouldn't Sullivan play up to stupid people? They are his audience, after all.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky at September 18, 2003 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, I'm with Sullivan's dumb. There's no way The Independent could even be described as 'left' let alone 'ultra-left'. Maybe he's taken his cue from that fact that for the most part, they were firmly in the anti-war camp.

Posted by: Andy at September 18, 2003 12:25 PM | PERMALINK

Not just Sullivan managed to miss that the core of Gilligan's claim was vindicated.

Daniel Drezner as well.

Posted by: GT at September 18, 2003 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Is anyone really surprised why Sullivan and Reynolds do not have comment sections? That's the only way they can insulate themselves from being challenged.

As to why anyone pays attention to Sullivan, unfortunately the mainstream media do. He's still writing for TIME, for instance. Why, I'm not sure. Like with Krauthammer and Coulter I think the media feel that they're doing their bit for diversity by using the ravings of people who are not easily pigeonholed (handicapped fascist, gay fascist, "sexy" fascist, etc.).

Posted by: Ares Akritas at September 18, 2003 12:58 PM | PERMALINK

The Hutton Inquiry is becoming a kind of Rorschach test for the British media and those with ties to it. Of all the papers, the Indy seems to have the best analysis. As for its 'ultra-left' status: yeah, right. For Robert Fisk, there's Bruce Anderson; for Yasmin Alibhi-Brown there's Howard Jacobson. And Johann Hari was a passionate advocate of the war, the silly little boy.

I'm sure Sully thinks the Sunday Times is 'centrist'.

Gilligan fucked up his first unscripted head-to-head on the Today programme. He realised his fuckup, wrote a script, and clarified things in every other report that day. His weekend article was probably over-the-top. But the substance remains, and the fact that the right-wing press are turning this into a BBC-bash, and a 'who said what to whom'-fest diverts attention from the fact that Blair was seeking justification for a decision he had made independent of the facts.

Posted by: nick sweeney at September 18, 2003 01:01 PM | PERMALINK

Like Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, InstaP, etc, Sullivan is not dumb, but he assumes his readers are. If Sully says it's ultra-left wing, that's all they need. If he says the report is damning, his readers know how to ditto that.

If you get all of your news from Fox and Sully, then there's not reason to doubt him.

Posted by: NohoMissives at September 18, 2003 01:04 PM | PERMALINK

"peculiar"? Are you outing him?

Posted by: stubby at September 18, 2003 01:05 PM | PERMALINK

nick sweeney, although correctly characterizing blair as "seeking justification for a decision he had made independent of the facts," is also describing sully's problem perfectly.

Sully (like Kaus) wasn't always this awful, and in fact, post-santorum, he's less awful than he has been, but basically, he reads into things what he wants to read into them. (prof instanitwit, by the way, has basically always been this awful.)

Posted by: howard at September 18, 2003 01:11 PM | PERMALINK

Kind of depends where your biases are. I read the Sullivan story and immediately clicked on the Independent link. They check 6 aspects of Gilligan's story and conclude that 5 of them are
wrong or have insufficient supporting evidence. They do support Gilligan on the issue mentioned by Kevin. The Independent is generally characterised as liberal and left-wing on social issues.

So? Something for everyone?

Posted by: melk at September 18, 2003 01:26 PM | PERMALINK

Why is the right so childist?

Posted by: taktile at September 18, 2003 01:39 PM | PERMALINK

As for why he's popular, people follow pundits because they like the implications of what they say, not what they actually say.

Posted by: taktile at September 18, 2003 01:41 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Melk, the Independent may have analyzed 6 aspects as you say, but they don't broadly conclude against him on the other 5--note, they say it might have been better for PG to have refered to Dr Kelly as a 'key person' in the drafting, rather than senior official in charge of...fairly niggling.

but, most importantly, as kevin noted, the Indep. notes that "the guts of the Gilligan claim, has been vindicated by the inquiry evidence."

maybe he hyped the position/involvement of his source slightly and was guilty of hyping it a bit generally, but the bulk of his basic claim was vindicated.

either way, it`s definitely not "damning," either to PG or to Blair...

Posted by: anon at September 18, 2003 01:42 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know about that last. . .

How could this not be damaging to Blair? It seems that on the face of it, he pitched the war to his people in the manner of a dishonest used-car-salesman. Not exactly lying, but not exactly telling the truth either, and deliberately slanting the evidence he had, with an eye towards scaring people, to get the country to invade a sovereign nation that was never a threat.

Sure, it could've been worse, but not much worse.

Posted by: epist at September 18, 2003 01:56 PM | PERMALINK

There's a food born every minute.

Mmmmm... babies...

Posted by: Anarch at September 18, 2003 01:58 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe we can apply the same standard to the Blair dossier and Bush SOTU. Were the "guts" of those presentations correct?

- Saddam was a bad guy
- Saddam was not cooperating with UN inspectors
- Saddam had not accounted for his weapons

Posted by: J Mann at September 18, 2003 03:38 PM | PERMALINK

But Saddam wasn't an imminent threat to the UK.

Gilligan was basically right and insofar as he was wrong or overstated, he corrected himself at the first opportunity.

For such a report to have generated such a fuss is extraordinary and the government pressure on the BBC has clearly been counterproductive but is still alarming.

I want to see newspaper reporting subjected to this level of scrutiny or even the statements of ministers upon which decisions of life and death are made. It is striking how many of the shortcomings of which Gilligan is accused are things that the writers of the dossier are also guilty, hype, single sources, exageration of the sources the only difference is that as far as the 45 minute claim was concerned the writers of the dossier were wrong. Do we really expect less of our intelligence officers and ministers than we do of the rather less well resourced journalist?

Posted by: Jack at September 18, 2003 04:12 PM | PERMALINK

Why are you still reading andrew sullivan?

Switch your attention to tacitus, who is of sufficient honor to maintain a comments section, unlike the gutless sullivan and reynolds.

He's a lot more interesting, too.

Posted by: p mac at September 18, 2003 05:08 PM | PERMALINK

"the ultra-left newspaper, the Independent."
To me, this is cute. To Sullivan, this is a handy lie. To his s**t-fed minions, this is reality. I regret it as I regret the murders of John Wayne Gacey: they didn't have to happen, they hurt people, and they were caused by an amoral sociopath.
The Independent is not left-leaning, it is centrist. The Guardian is not far-left, it is left-wing. I think that unlike Sullivan, my word has some credibility here. Now it is true that the UK's entire politics are to the left of the US. But the Guardian is not advocating state control of the means of production, for instance, so I'll invite those labelling it thus to shove that label upward.
We've previously established here that melk is not honest: the Geneva Conventions debate. Bear that in mind.

Posted by: John Isbell at September 18, 2003 06:00 PM | PERMALINK

The Creature From the Blog Lagoon (seen here nanoseconds before HIV infection hit) lost all touch with reality some time ago. To straights blithely unaware of the gays and lesbians around them, he held a certain "dancing bear" charm for awhile.

But he's been permanently eclipsed by the Fab Five.

To Howie Kurtz and his ilk however, Sully's still a useful House Faggot, though that too amy ane as the impact of the infection rate increase is felt along with the realization that for increasing numbers of the HIV+ citizens the protease inhibitor "cocktail" no longer works.

Posted by: David Ehrenstein at September 18, 2003 06:28 PM | PERMALINK

Love your comment, David! So 'house faggots' can line behind 'house niggers' a la Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell?

Posted by: Helga Fremlin at September 18, 2003 07:28 PM | PERMALINK

Switch your attention to tacitus, who is of sufficient honor to maintain a comments section, unlike the gutless sullivan and reynolds.

It's a subjective call, but Tacitus has a running attack on Tristero that's kind of slimeball. Also, he has posted contradictory information about whether he serves in Nam.

Posted by: Roger Bigod at September 18, 2003 08:18 PM | PERMALINK

Tacitus wouldn't have been old enough to serve in Vietnam (he said recently he's under 30).

Posted by: taktile at September 18, 2003 09:30 PM | PERMALINK

David E., have some class.

Posted by: Matt W. at September 19, 2003 01:26 AM | PERMALINK

I'll note that David E. is black and gay, and has good reason to despise Sullivan which we won't go into. But I'm not sure that that quite addresses Matt W.'s remark.
My impression of Tacitus, in liberal threads, is that he is open to debate, and stays pretty honest, 85-90% of the time. On his bad days (or blind spots), he'll lie and distort with gay abandon. You just have to wait that out.

Posted by: John Isbell at September 19, 2003 07:54 AM | PERMALINK

The Blair government will justifiably take a hit for spinning intelligence information and undermining its objectivity and future credibility. But that doesn't excuse the BBC and Gilligan for violating journalistic ethics and being wrong on 5 of the 6 issues raised by The Independent. There are plenty of examples of the BBC's news coverage getting it wrong (I'm at the airport and I don't see any American troops) reflecting a bias that worked its way out of the editorial office. An interesting question is whether government or the press should be held to a higher standard for honesty.

Posted by: Mark at September 19, 2003 09:05 AM | PERMALINK

Fascinating. I suppose it depends on what the meaning of "guts" is.

The fact that the "45 minutes" assertion was wrong is obviously important. Would that error, on its own, have been a big deal if not for the additional allegations that the political side of the government knew it was wrong, and ordered it into the dossier anyway?

Candidates for "guts" seem to include:

"The Government knew that the 45-minute claim was wrong even before it decided to put it in"

or

Most people in intelligence weren't happy with the dossier, because it didn't reflect the considered view they were putting forward"

Neither of these allegations seem to have stood the test of time.

Posted by: Tom Maguire at September 19, 2003 09:26 AM | PERMALINK

more damning evidence: Andrew Sullivan is a log cabin republican!

the horror!

Posted by: nova silverpill at September 19, 2003 09:37 AM | PERMALINK

"David E., have some class."

LOL!

To paraphrase Norma Shearer's last line in The Woman, Class is something no self-respecting person (gay or straight) can afford.

Posted by: David Ehrenstein at September 19, 2003 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

Neither of these allegations seem to have stood the test of time.

Not so, Tom: on the first point, Gilligan's 'wrong' overstated the case, but so did the 45-minute claim, given that it was presented in a way to suggest that Saddam could have ballistic chemical or biological weapons deployed when the friend-of-a-friend was referring to battlefield munitions. John Scarlett even admitted that.

And as for the second point, you really ought to read the transcripts of the Hutton Inquiry. 'Over-egged', I believe, is the term.

Compare the number of allegations in the dossier that have stood the test of time, to the number of allegations made by Gilligan that have done the same, and the BBC pretty much wins.

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