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July 31, 2003

A DIFFERENT VIEW ON THE WMD HUNT....Yesterday the Washington Post reported that we were making no progress on finding either WMD or WMD programs. Today, presumably based on different sources, CNN takes a somewhat more optimistic view:

[David] Kay and Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, the head of the Pentagon's Iraq Survey Groups, met for three hours behind closed doors with members of the Senate Armed Services Committee....Kay and Dayton were due to also brief the Senate Intelligence Committee Thursday afternoon....Sources told CNN the men were to make the following points:

  • No confirmed chemical or biological material is in hand. Although they have tested suspect material, "there is nothing you could take to court," said one source.

  • More leads have emerged since the deaths of Saddam's sons, Uday and Qusay Hussein.

  • The conclusion that Iraq had an "active WMD program" is based on recent interrogations of Iraqi regime officials, as well as documents that the United States has seized. Those documents, the sources said, show that Iraq had plans to destroy weapons stockpiles quickly; shift dual-use plants from weapons to commercial production as part of a deception effort; and reconstitute its weapons if it had to destroy them in the face of inspections or a U.S. attack.

Offering one example, one official said a document was found a few weeks ago that detailed how a dual-use commercial chemical plant might operate. The document specified in detail how equipment should be shifted to weapons production.

So who's right? Stay tuned.

Posted by Kevin Drum at July 31, 2003 12:15 PM | TrackBack


Comments

Just how far can the goalposts be moved on this issue? Did we go to war because of the threat of WMD plans, or because of actual WMDs? I'm sorry, but shouldn't we be spending a wee bit more time following up on the Saudi money trail to Al Qaeda?

Posted by: David W. at July 31, 2003 12:21 PM | PERMALINK

Offering one example, one official said a document was found a few weeks ago that detailed how a dual-use commercial chemical plant might operate.

C'mon. A document? Might operate? This is the kind of garbage they are going to trot out to get words like 'leads','WMD','plans' into the news so people continue to believe the company line? If I look at the balance in my checking account now, I might have a million dollars. But I wouldn't bet on it...

Posted by: han at July 31, 2003 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

It'd be nice if they gave dates on those documents.

I won't be terribly impressed if they all date from the mid-90s.

Posted by: Jon H at July 31, 2003 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think they're directly contradictory. From yesterday's post:

No matter the circumstances, all of the scientists interviewed have denied that Hussein had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program or developed and hidden chemical or biological weapons since United Nations inspectors left in 1998. Several key Iraqi officials questioned the significance of evidence cited by the Bush administration to suggest that Hussein was stepping up efforts to develop new weapons of mass destruction programs.

So they (the Iraqis) denied that he restarted the nuclear weapons program (who really believed that in the first place, anyway?), and denied that he had developed biological or chemical weapons since '98. But didn't deny the existence of bio/chem programs, just downplayed the "significance of evidence", whatever that means.

Posted by: Christopher Luebcke at July 31, 2003 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

The conclusion that Iraq had an "active WMD program" is based on recent interrogations of Iraqi regime officials, as well as documents that the United States has seized.

Wait, Wait I know 12 years-ago it got buried under a rosebush, right?

--Did they found the mother-load of documents but have to the scrape the mildew and fugus off for having been in a damp celler down by river for some time now????

You know that if they had destroyed any WMD recently what would tangible evidence left—anthrax spores alone can live up to 2 to 3 years in the dirt. Bush didn't shit about what Iraq had.

Posted by: Cheryl at July 31, 2003 12:29 PM | PERMALINK

oops that should be:

You know that if they had destroyed any WMD recently there would tangible evidence left—anthrax spores alone can live up to 2 to 3 years in the dirt. Bush didn't know shit about what Iraq had in the way of WMD to be going off telling Americans in his SOTU speech that Iraq have TONS of anything except maybe documents.

Posted by: Cheryl at July 31, 2003 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

It'd be nice if they gave dates on those documents.

I don't know that I would trust a date without some chemical or bio-weapon evidence. This is why the Bushies really need to let the UN inspectors back into Iraq because doesn't Bush already have one fraudulent Niger yellowcake document he tried to pass off at the UN?

Posted by: Cheryl at July 31, 2003 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

See Digby's recent post on Chalabi, then re-read anything anyone says about "documents".

Posted by: ChrisL at July 31, 2003 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

This far into the occupation, if they find a small quantity of any WMD, people will probably think that it was planted there (by US of course).

If they find anything, it better be in the vicinity of 8500 liters of anthrax or 550 artillery shells with mustard or 30,000 empty munitions or enough precursors to increase the stockpile to 500 tons of chemical agents. And lets not forget the mushroom cloud.

Posted by: Neeraj at July 31, 2003 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

If you think you know best, it is time to put your money where your mouth is...

On Tradesports.com you can buy a contract which would pay 100 in case WMDs are found in Iraq before the end of September.


The last Transaction has been settled at 20.

Posted by: superfrog at July 31, 2003 12:59 PM | PERMALINK

So they (the Iraqis) denied that he restarted the nuclear weapons program (who really believed that in the first place, anyway?), and denied that he had developed biological or chemical weapons since '98. But didn't deny the existence of bio/chem programs, just downplayed the "significance of evidence", whatever that means.

Quite a few people, evidently, believe that Saddam was working on nukes in the runup to the war. Bush cited "evidence" to that effect, and one of the most common pro-war blurbs was "we don't want the evidence of Saddam's programs to be a mushroom cloud over [pick your favorite city], now do we?"

As far as denial of biological/chemical weapons programs, how exactly would you define a "weapons program" if it wasn't producing weapons and it wasn't working on developing them?

Posted by: Jonathan at July 31, 2003 02:26 PM | PERMALINK

Er, that should be "quite a few people, evidently, believed that Saddam was working on nukes..."

I doubt many people believe that now (with the possible exception of Bush, of course).

Posted by: Jonathan at July 31, 2003 02:27 PM | PERMALINK

"More leads have emerged since the deaths of Saddam's sons, Uday and Qusay Hussein."
They have their utterly unsupported statement, here's mine: this is PR.
I will say that the LONG delay in producing any documents or WMD militates against my theory that we were just going to bus some stuff in there. I haven't yet resolved that anomaly, but I'll be unusually curious when they turn up their barrels of WMD and mounds of incriminating documents. I have, for example, finally accepted that the rose bush centrifuge wasn't planted (so to speak). But I watch this admin with a jaundiced eye, like the rest of the planet.

Posted by: John Isbell at July 31, 2003 02:28 PM | PERMALINK

Regarding nuclear weapons, Bush, Cheney, et al didn't just "believe" that Saddam had restarted his nuclear weapons program.

They "knew."

Cheney said it to the VFW in August, 2002, Cheney said it on tv in March just before the war started, and Bush said it several times in between.

Posted by: howard at July 31, 2003 02:33 PM | PERMALINK

One centrifuge is meaningless. To enrich uranium one must have a "cascade facility" which contains THOUSANDS of centrifuges to produce enough enriched uranium to produce even a enough fuel for one bomb. Currently Iran is building a facility which will house tens of thousands of these machines with each unit requiring roughly a square meter of floor space. The facility is roughly 180,000 square meters in size. Producing bomb grade uranium is a herculean task that even the North Koreans as motivated as they are haven't pulled off hence their switch to enriching Plutonium instead.

Posted by: fastback at July 31, 2003 02:44 PM | PERMALINK

One centrifuge is most assuredly meaningless. The fact that they haven't found any others, and that the scientist dug it up instead of leading the GIs there, shouted "planted" at me when it first showed up: if they buried an entire program under rose bushes, where are the thousands of other parts? The story was patent poppycock. But I read a soundbite from the guy where he said claims of anything post-1992 was rubbish, more or less, which persuaded me he was on the level.
Going back over my reasons, I'm starting to think it was a deliciously crude plant again. On about a 6th-Grade level.

Posted by: John Isbell at July 31, 2003 03:05 PM | PERMALINK

pages of mass destruction, now is it? sheesh. just when you think the administration's claims can't get ludicrously more pathetic, they pull another one out of their hat.

or asses.

Posted by: j at July 31, 2003 03:07 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, it sounds like a "Bookmobile of Mass Destruction" (BMS)

Posted by: Jonathan at July 31, 2003 03:11 PM | PERMALINK

More evidence of Bush Administration deceit:

"Doubts mount on Powell's evidence to UN"

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059478557785

"Do not use 45-minute claim, CIA told No 10"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1009493,00.html

Posted by: nameless at July 31, 2003 03:48 PM | PERMALINK

Did we go to war because of the threat of WMD plans, or because of actual WMDs?

Among other things, because of the threat posed by the potential for use of WMD. The fact that we could not then, and can not now, discern the precise state of the WMD program is of less importance than the more general point: this is a regime that wanted WMD, had shown the ability in the past to develop WMD, and had shown the willingness in the past to use WMD, as well as the willingness to work with terrorists and to do things (like attempting to assassinate a former president) that would not strike most of us as rational behavior. The decision to go to war was based, at least in part, on the ideas that (1) as a matter of security, we could not afford to give Saddam's regime the benefit of the doubt and (2) as a matter of the UN resolutions, we were not required to; it was his burden to affirmatively demonstrate the disposal of past WMD stocks, which he did not do.

Posted by: Crank at July 31, 2003 04:24 PM | PERMALINK

Any facility capable of producing organophosphate-based pesticides (very common, low tech chemistry) is capable of producing organophosphate-based nerve agents. There's not a lot of difference chemically between roach spray and nerve gas. Any facility with fermentation tanks (beer anyone?) is capable of producing bacteriological agents. If the administration is now touting such dual use capable facilities, their standards have truly hit rock bottom. If the Bushies had truly believed Saddam had a powerful arsenal, we would not have invaded just as we've not invaded North Korea. It was Saddam's very weakness that made him a target of the neocons, not his strength.

Posted by: fastback at July 31, 2003 05:31 PM | PERMALINK

Crank, you, of course, could support the war for any reason you wanted, but the core reason that george bush used to make the case for war was that Iraq had a dangerous and growing arsenal, including, we knew, a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

As is becoming clear to an increasing number of people, "selling" this kind of war on this kind of exaggeration was foolish in the short run and quite dangerous in the long run in terms of damage to US credibility.

We can already state with certainty that there was no reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

Even reading the posting Kevin posted as favorably as possible to the administration's case, it still suggests nothing near the level of threat that the admin portrayed. It could, in fact, mean what increasingly seems the likeliest explanation: there was no active program at all, only a willingness and a bare bones infrastructure to reinvigorate a program at some time.

The arguments you make may or may not have passed muster with the American people and the Congress last fall, but they have very little to do with the arguments that were actually made.

Posted by: howard at July 31, 2003 07:57 PM | PERMALINK

"The conclusion that Iraq had an 'active WMD program' is based on recent interrogations of Iraqi regime officials, as well as documents that the United States has seized. Those documents, the sources said, show that Iraq had plans to destroy weapons stockpiles quickly..."

Is this supposed to imply that the reason we haven't found the weapons is that Iraq in fact carried out those plans and destroyed their stockpiles before or during the invasion?

If so, why haven't the Iraqi officials (the ones who are now cooperating) told us what was destroyed and where?

Posted by: Jeffrey Kramer at July 31, 2003 10:42 PM | PERMALINK

Ya know, the point the Bush posse made was that Saddam had these weapons and we knew how many and where they were. We had to go in to take them out.
Well, where are they?

Posted by: sal at August 1, 2003 05:39 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin, believe the Pincus story in the Washington Post which was based on CIA sources that were commenting on interviews with senior and midlevel Iraqi officials and scientists. Notice that the CNN story has no concrete evidence and is just more smoke blowing. I suspect the source for the CNN story was David Kay himself, who before the war was an utter propagandist for extreme WMD claims and now has been rewarded with an official position.

Posted by: Ben Brackley at August 1, 2003 07:34 AM | PERMALINK

Let's have a hypothetical:

Suppose, just for supposin', that the fabulously disciplined Bush administration is sitting on a huge pile of absolutely incontrovertible evidence of WMD and is saving it.
Suppose there are two reasons, one being to scrape together every single piece of stuff out there so as to leave liberals with nothing to dispute, and the other reason for delay is to pop the whole thing out during the Democrat primary, or some other strategically-timed period.
Fair? Unfair? Dirty pool?
Presume the whole thing is absolutely solid.
Then what?

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at August 1, 2003 01:04 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Richard, I'd think first you'd condemn that, but it's hard to be sure. Second, they'd want to make damn sure that no-one could prove they'd been sitting on the stuff, since that coming out could lose them 20% in the polls overnight. One problem is that if they find stuff now, a great chunk of the world will think that anyway.
Hey, an actual answer from me! But it's a serious question. You're now welcome to turn this into anything that appeals to you.

Posted by: John Isbell at August 1, 2003 01:17 PM | PERMALINK

An ironic title for the following report, to say the least:

Weapons of Mass Confusion - (NY Times)
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/01/international/worldspecial3/01CND-GORDON.html?hp

CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, Aug. 1 - There is a bold and entirely plausible theory that may account for the mystery over Iraq's missing weapons of mass destruction.

(wait for it....)

Saddam Hussein, the theory holds, ordered the destruction of his weapon stocks well before the war to deprive the United States of a rationale to attack his regime and to hasten the eventual lifting of the United Nations sanctions. But the Iraqi dictator retained the scientists and technical capacity to resume the production of chemical and biological weapons and eventually develop nuclear arms.

(besides the obvious rationalization going on here, is there any way that Iraq could divest itself of said capacity? is war justified if not?)

Mr. Hussein's calculation was that he could restart his weapons programs once the international community lost interest in Iraq and became absorbed with other crises. That would enable him to pursue his dream of making Iraq the dominant power in the Persian Gulf region and make it easier for him to deter enemies at home and abroad.

(note the assumption that's slid under the door here about Hussein's 'calculation' and the holes for the new goalpost location being dug)

"This is the leading theory," said Gary Samore, director of studies at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies and a former nonproliferation expert on the National Security Council under President Bill Clinton.

(this is the latest attempt to deflect judgment on the subject, along with more suggestions today about revelations to come)

American intelligence experts are still in Iraq trying to determine the status of Mr. Hussein's weapons programs, so it is premature to be too categorical about what they will find. What the theory offers, however, is a new way to make sense of the testimony of captured Iraqi officials who claim that weapons stocks were eliminated, Mr. Hussein's pattern of grudging and partial cooperation with United Nations weapons inspectors and his longstanding ambitions in the region.

If true, it means that the Iraqi threat was less immediate than the administration asserted but more worrisome than the critics now suggest. And it means the decision to use military force to pre-empt that threat was not an urgent necessity but a judgment call, one that can be justified as the surest way to put an end to Iraq's designs but still one about which ardent defenders of the United States' security can disagree.

(spot the excluded middle yet? hint: it involves inspectors)

It is already clear that much of the recent debate over Iraq's weapons programs has been too simplistic. In recent months, the discussion of Iraq's intentions seems to have oscillated from one extreme to another. Iraq was described by hawks before the war as a nation that was an imminent threat to the United States, bristling with chemical and biological weapons, or C.B.W., as intelligence agencies call them. Now the administration's critics seem to suggest that the absence of weapons stocks means that the Saddam Hussein regime had somehow abandoned its goal to be an assertive regional power. ...

(which critics have said this? note the use of the weasel words 'seem to suggest' also, but enough for now)

Posted by: David W. at August 1, 2003 02:02 PM | PERMALINK

John, why would I condemn sitting on the evidence?
Letting it out as it comes would presume the liberals were acting in good faith.
Silly.
Letting it out as it comes would give the liberals endless opportunities to misrepresent it.
And since the evidence exists--hypothetically speaking--the war is justified if WMD is the justfication and whether it is hidden in order to prevent the liberals from misrepresenting it in its details which they would surely do is only a political issue. Sharp practice, to be sure. But nothing to do with the war.

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