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July 07, 2003

AND WE WANT TIME AND A HALF FOR....UM, ER....Need further evidence of the wide cultural and political divide between the United States and Europe? No, I didn't think so, but here it is anyway: Britain's GMB trade union is campaigning to decriminalize prostitution and unionize sex workers:

Ana Lopez, of the International Union of Sex Workers, is a GMB branch secretary. She believes that the sex industry should only be viewed as a labour issue, and supports decriminalisation of all prostitution. The IUSW even believes that "pimps may be necessary for protection since most of the police fail to do this for sex workers".

Lopez acknowledges that most women in prostitution, especially those on the streets, would face difficulties joining a union, mainly because the majority would not wish to give their names and addresses, and do not want to be labelled prostitutes.

Yeah, that could be a problem.

I'm all in favor of decriminalizing prostitution, and hell, I suppose prostitutes would even be good candidates for unionization. But can you imagine a union — or much of anyone else — leading a campaign like this in America?

Me neither.

Posted by Kevin Drum at July 7, 2003 04:48 PM | TrackBack


Comments

Prostitution is legal in Canada. Shhh.

And "exotic dancers" have unionized in San Francisco... And they just bought their own business, the "Lusty Lady". And until a week ago, I lived a block from the wonderful "Good Vibrations", a 'sex' paraphernalia store that was ... kinda like any other store. Light, friendly.

You people. Stop being so ... weird about sex.

Posted by: squiddy at July 7, 2003 05:02 PM | PERMALINK

About a couple weeks ago New Zealand passed a law legalizing prostitution and will now license brothels.

It decriminalises prostitution and establishes a legal framework around the sex industry, with licensed brothels operating under public health and employment laws.

Posted by: Spade Hammer at July 7, 2003 05:14 PM | PERMALINK

Prostitution is legal in Holland. They pay taxes and everything. In some places, I have heard, have they made special roundabouts, separate from the normal roads, where the prostitutes can stand while the cars circle looking for the right girl. That way slow moving curb-crawlers don't cause accidents and the prostitutes are safer since everything is done in well-known and controlled locations.

They have tried to legalise prositution in Germany, but the prostitutes don't want to register, because they have to pay taxes of their income.

Sweden has gone the other way, criminalising the client, based on the assumption that the prostitute is a victim of exploitation. It has effectively removed prostitution from the streets and other visible places. I don't believe it has managed to reduce the level of prosititution, but it is harder for provider and consumer side to meet.

In Denmark, where I live, prosititution is legal, but the prostitutes never declare their income. Since the IRS will become nosey if you don't have any income, most prostitutes collect social benefits, and are regularly caught and punished, not for prositution, but for cheating with the welfare system.

In Italy, where prostitution is illegal, you seem them on the streets both inside and outside the cities. Most of the prostitutes are illegal immigrants, they have no protection whatsoever and live miserable lives.

Kind of funny that prostitution is so much more visible where it is more illegal. Also, the prostitutes seem to be more exposed and generally worse off, definitely more at the mercy of a rogue violent client, where prostitution is illegal.

Posted by: René at July 7, 2003 05:31 PM | PERMALINK

OK, OK, there's a wide cultural divide between the United States and Europe/New Zealand/San Francisco.

And Canada too. On the other hand, Iran and Saudi Arabia are on our side....

Posted by: Kevin Drum at July 7, 2003 05:31 PM | PERMALINK

Prostitution is also legal in Nevada, though counties may opt out.

California has two chapters of COYOTE which works to help all sex workers through a variety of inititiaves. (SF and Los Angeles.)

I have wondered when the native tribes will branch into this new line of activity?

Posted by: MacMan at July 7, 2003 06:03 PM | PERMALINK

An Australian brothel recently went on the stock market as a publicly traded company.

Posted by: Jon H at July 7, 2003 06:03 PM | PERMALINK

This is amazing.. are we behind the times with the rest of the Western world these days, or what? Maybe it's time for another reverse brain drain to Canada?

Posted by: mc_masterchef at July 7, 2003 06:13 PM | PERMALINK

mc masterchef writes: "Maybe it's time for another reverse brain drain to Canada?"

Brains got nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Jon H at July 7, 2003 06:21 PM | PERMALINK

Where there's money and progressives in government, there's legalization.

Vegas hit the gravy train by legalizing gambling. Then, when BIG BUSINESS understood the cash flow through the hotels ($10-million a day) ... without needing truckloads of merchandise to keep turning over the stock, so to speak ... The mafia was gone. (Big business does have clout!)

And, when Indian reservations branched into gambling; and Atlantic City bootstrapped on to get itself out of depression ... THEN WHY NOT OTHER STUFF?

You think you can't get a drink when you're 18 in Vegas? Or play at the tables? (I don't know the answer. This is a real question.)

And, once these houses of prostitution are legitimate, with the biggest customer base UNDER 18, and over 55, what's the laws going to look like?

How far behind can sensible marijuana laws be? (Right now our Federal and State park lands are being destroyed by cultivators with guns.) How best to solve this problem, may I ask?

Some day I hope prostitution becomes enjoyable for females. Now that would be progress! (It would be enjoyable if men would be willing to buy menapausal women. But women don't get free until its much too late.)

Posted by: Carol Herman at July 7, 2003 06:39 PM | PERMALINK

Rene:

with regard to Germany, prostitution has been legal for a long time, with income theoretically subject to taxes, and a requirement to pay for private health insurance and social security. Only pimping was illegal.

There has been a change of law in 2001, and now prostitutes can legally enforce their contract with a customer in a court of law (which was not possible before), and enter employment contracts, subject to the mandatory health insurance and social security in Germany. They can also join the public service sector union, which has apparently already worked out model work contracts for them.

Exploitative employment conditions are still illegal.

Posted by: Raven at July 7, 2003 06:57 PM | PERMALINK

I'm all in favor of decriminalizing prostitution

Thanks to the Lawrence case, this could happen sooner than you think. Unless the court holds that consensual sex between adults is protected only if it is for love or lust, but not for money.

I am actually in two minds on this. The little libertarian sitting on my left shoulder says, "this is good news! There is too much hypocrisy regarding sex!". The little Scalia sitting on my right shoulder says, "Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue!".

Imagine if prostitution is legalized and regulated, though ... Maybe OSHA will have workplace guidelines, e.g. use of condoms, testing for STDs, a reasonable customers-to-sex-worker ratio, extra pay for overtime, procedures for dealing with sexual harrasment. The federal government may actually require the use of birth control devices.

Posted by: Gautam Vallabha at July 7, 2003 07:30 PM | PERMALINK

Legalization is cool, but I'm sort of worried about how a prostitution union would work. Would you be forced to have sex with 60 year old Ethel because she has seniority over 24 year old Gigi? Be required to contract out a minimum of 4 union members for any one sex act?

Posted by: Phalamir at July 7, 2003 07:37 PM | PERMALINK

America is full of legal prostitution - it just doesn't involve any kind of sex. Lobbyists are whores, politicians are too often whores, corporate management personnel are too often whores, union "representatives" are too often whores, ...

You get the idea.

Carol Herman - I've seen a few menopausal women I would be glad to patronize, were that possible.

Posted by: pessimist at July 7, 2003 09:01 PM | PERMALINK

US complains about brothel called The White House

The White House general manager Scott McGregor told the paper the establishment had used the logo for almost two years, adding, "It's a universally recognised symbol. I don't think they've got exclusive rights to it."

Posted by: pessimist at July 7, 2003 09:03 PM | PERMALINK

I had to read to the end to see that what gets you is the union aspect. Neat verbal shake 'n bake. I thought the word union had been purged from American dictionaries?
I think a few European countries have legalized prostitution. France does. Is it legal in Nevada?

Posted by: John Isbell at July 7, 2003 09:05 PM | PERMALINK

I see that everything I wrote had been written before me. I feel like Flaubert.

Posted by: John Isbell at July 7, 2003 09:07 PM | PERMALINK

Vsya vlast' prostitutam!

Posted by: Lonewacko at July 7, 2003 10:13 PM | PERMALINK

I have to disagree. Prostitution is inherently exploitative. No amount of regulation and unionization can stop that. The government should take every step to help prostitutes escape their situation and punish men who would use them.
- Prostitution is about power. The vast majority of prostitutes have been raped. Many, if not most, prostitutes were raped BEFORE they ever became prostitutes. The experience of rape and the psychological damage it does to a person plays a major role in deciding to become a prostitute. It also betrays the nature of prostitution for what it is: a situation where a woman is owned by a man, even if for only 15 minutes. Prostitution is slavery in a very real sense. While prostitutes "accept" prostitution, most are psychologically in a place where they are not really capable of consent. The addictions and self-hatreds that draw a person to prostitution impeed the ability of a person to consent. Comparing prostitution to marijuana is highly inaccurate. Crack or heroin is a better comparison. Notably, every person I know who has engaged in prostitution was raped earlier in life and/or addicted to heroin (and I have know 4 prostitutes personally)
- Men who seek prostitutes out are not usually just horny johns who can't get lucky. They usually are men who like controling and "owning" a woman. As a result, they tend to use prostitutes in horrible ways. Most of these men will seek out illegal prostitutes even if legal ones are available.
- Has anyone ever met a prostitute who was not miserable about her lot in life? I haven't. A person only engages in prostitution when they have had all their self-worth stripped away. The profession exacerbates the condition, leading people to almost suicidal levels of depression.

This may not be true of EVERY prostitute, but it seems to be true of the vast majority. I cannot imagine a situation where unionizing prostitutes would be a more effective remedy than addressing their fundamental problems. Better to provide drug treatment and rape counseling than to legalize a profession that preys on the survivors.

Posted by: MDtoMN at July 7, 2003 10:26 PM | PERMALINK

As you know Kevin-Bob, in the Netherlands prostitution has been legalised for some time now and tolerated for much longer. I think this is a good thing, but don't think this will magick away all the problems associated with prostitution.

There are still problems with illegal migrants being exploited for the sex industry because they're cheaper than legal hookers. Quite often these are girls lured here under fals pretences, raped and then put to work in the illegal circuit.

There are also new problems. Can you force somebody on the dole to take a job in the sex industry?

Posted by: Martin Wisse at July 7, 2003 11:56 PM | PERMALINK

Just to clarify, prostitution is legal in Canada, but solicitation is illegal. So no one can arrest you if you give someone money for sex, but you are breaking the law if you ask for or offer money for sex.

Which is an awfully silly line to draw, IMHO. But who said sex laws made sense?

Posted by: Andrew Edwards at July 8, 2003 06:09 AM | PERMALINK

What Andrew Edwards said -- prostitution is not, in any practical way, legal in Canada. We still retain some vestige of our stout Protestant moraltiy (the vestige is about the size of a g-string ... whatever).

There is also a strong sex worker uniion in West Bengal. The US and Canada really need to catch up with West Bengal.

Posted by: Ikram Saeed at July 8, 2003 06:56 AM | PERMALINK

In tangentally related news, NBA player Damon Stoudamire just got arrested for marijuana. Pretty sad when a multi-no, make that super-mega- millionaire can't smoke a bit of green.

MDtoMN: the issues you raise are valid, but I don't see how it follows that legalizing prostitution is somehow an additional negative. In fact, I see that these women get a horrible start on life, the least we can do is not criminalize them on top of everything else.

And your last sentence seems to be a false choice? I think de-criminalization makes it easier to get help, not harder??

Posted by: doesn't matter at July 8, 2003 08:05 AM | PERMALINK

I was going to post about Germany, but Raven beat me to it. I can add that the prostitutes there have pretty strong unions, and all of their prices are standardized depending on where they work. I think I might be confusing their union with the union in Amsterdam, but I believe it's called the 'red string,' with reference to a tampon string.

Don't ask me why I know so much about European hookers.

Posted by: Marc at July 8, 2003 08:27 AM | PERMALINK

MD to MN, that's why I despise the film Pretty Woman and regret that it was ever greenlighted. But I share doesn't matter's thoughts on your position. I think I remember a French article saying how glad French prostitutes were that they could unionize. You can't do that if you're illegal.

Posted by: John Isbell at July 8, 2003 08:29 AM | PERMALINK

about "sex worker" unions in west bengal - the customer HAS to use a condom, he can't enter the room without it
a victory for working condition regulations?

Posted by: manish at July 8, 2003 09:14 AM | PERMALINK

It also betrays the nature of prostitution for what it is: a situation where a woman is owned by a man, even if for only 15 minutes.

So, how does this differ from wage labor? AFAIK, it doesn't. And, heck, in salaried jobs, the attitude of some employers I've had is that they own you, 24/7.

Further, most of the horrors you describe are encouraged, rather than discouraged, by illegality. Legal prostitutes are far less likely to be trapped in the business by their employer also being their drug dealer, and deliberately getting them hooked; are less likely to suffer abuse without any recourse because of an adversarial relationship with law enforcement.

Posted by: cmdicely at July 8, 2003 09:51 AM | PERMALINK

I know that the legalization of prostitution might make it easier for prostitutes to get help. At the same time, would prostitute unions really be in the business of helping women stop being prostitutes? Why do we think that would happen? Union leaders, like all leaders, seek power, and the road to power for a prostitute union is NOT helping women out of their situation. Particularly when you remember that union leaders would also act as corporate management. If they didn't, we'd be leaving that job to some people who would really tend to exploit prostitutes.

I think there's a serious danger of Intellectualizing this debate and letting it become abstract. Prostitution is not just another job, and seeking out prostitutes is not the same as going to a strip joint. It is different from other work in its very nature. It seems more like oppression and slavery than any other work I have encountered in this country.

I'm not completely sure I'm against legalization, but everything in my experience has told me that prostitution is bad and wrong. I would wait to see real prostitutes fight for this position. I have fears that the drive for legalization is fueled more by two types of people: the people who would like to make money off these women and the people with a misguided belief that this will help prostitutes. I guess the voice I would need to hear in this debate is that of an actual prostitute arguing that her job doesn't demean her, that she really is content with this life, and that she thinks the major barrier to her happiness is the criminality of prostitution. Until I see that prostitute, I can't believe this is the right course of action.

Posted by: MDtoMN at July 8, 2003 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

When I was young, my momma told me women married for security. Not love. So, if you want to know where sex for money is exchanged you have no further to look than marriage.

So many unhappy marriages. I think life would be better when young women discover what some ugly girls learn early in life. If you 'put out' you have more fun than virgins. Men will come anyway. Why not learn to enjoy this biological function?

Women exploited? Not in the short run. Why? Because women who do this for a living don't put their hearts on the line.

Women get hurt when they think sex brings other benefits besides orgasms. And, so many unhappy marriages never even know this pleasure for the female. Just ask Masters & Johnson.

Do you know why older people need DEPENDS? They leak because they never learn to exercise their pelvic muscles. I laugh at every exercise commercial that says you need just ten minutes a day to exercise your heart. AND WOMEN EXERCISE MORE FULLY THAN MEN.

Ah, I am so wise ... and I just dispense this for free. The one thing that kills prostitution is the willingness to enjoy sex, and not charge a dime.

Posted by: Carol Herman at July 8, 2003 01:28 PM | PERMALINK

MD to MN:

I agree that many if not most women who are prostitues had traumatic sexual experiences at some point in their lives. However. Legalizing the job that they are already doing and demanding a reasonable wage, health insurance, the ability to seek justice for abuse by customers, and the feeling of strength in numbers and legitimacy of legalization might help change the mindset of some of these women. And then there are women who do this work because they can and it's not as disagreeable as something else-- the same benefits would apply.

I understand what you are saying about a woman being "owned" during the time she's being paid for, but I think women need to change our relationship with the sex and porn industries by taking power over them-- afterall, it's a commodity we control that is being paid for....

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