Contact
Archives
Search
Blogs
Newspaper Blogs
English-Language
Press
Polls

July 02, 2003

THE ART OF DIPLOMACY....Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has been on trial pretty much forever on various charges of bribery and corruption, but ever since he became prime minister he's been pushing through bills that would exempt him from prosecution. He succeeded in passing the last of these, thus making himself completely and entirely above the law, a few days ago, just in time for the beginning of Italy's presidency of the EU.

Happy days, right? Not quite. In his first appearance as president of the EU, a German member of the European parliament criticized Berlusconi's extensive ownership of Italian media companies and Berlusconi lost his cool:

"Mr. Schulz, I know there is in Italy a man producing a film on the Nazi concentration camps. I would like to suggest you for the role of leader. You'd be perfect,'' Berlusconi exclaimed to jeers in the chamber.

What a disgusting thing to say. Italians everywhere must be cringing.

UPDATE: Henry Farrell has some additional background on this plus some analysis of whether it matters. Short answer: yes it does.

Posted by Kevin Drum at July 2, 2003 09:43 AM | TrackBack


Comments

Berlusconi is what you'd get if Bush owned the media, instead of the other way round...

...or something.

Posted by: Davis X. Machina at July 2, 2003 09:49 AM | PERMALINK

somewhat ironical, no? berlusconi is ideologically the closest thing to a fascist in europe. if he hated some minority, say, north africans, (or even southern italians) he would be a veritable national socialist.

Posted by: Marc at July 2, 2003 10:09 AM | PERMALINK

In the first place, I think you're giving "Italians everywhere" too much credit. The guy has a long and shady history, rife with charges of corruption and association with various neo-fascist and racist individuals and groups. Yet he managed to get himself elected. While it's safe to say that a great many Italians are cringing about his latest outburst, it's also likely that there are many who think exactly the same way he does. In any event, since he controls virtually the entire Italian media, it's more likely that most people there will simply not get the full story to begin with. The impact of a potentially damaging story is obviously lessened when it is filtered through a biased media, something we have ample evidence of in this country.

Posted by: Gunther at July 2, 2003 10:13 AM | PERMALINK

Funny how the Germans weren't all that upset when some German MPs compared Bush to Hitler. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, I guess we got to get outraged about it, right?

Then I thought this was funny: "About 15 ecologist lawmakers held up placards in Italian declaring ``La legge e uguale per tutti'' (The law is equal for all) and ``No godfathers.''"

I guess any Italian is stereotyped a "Godfather". Yep, no racism on the left!

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

"I guess any Italian is stereotyped a "Godfather". Yep, no racism on the left!"

- Not 'any Italian'. Just those under indictment. Is that hard to understand?

I remember reading a Wall Street Journal defense of Berlusconi at the time of his election a couple of years ago. The Journal, you might remember, was still peddling its 15-volume [sic] account of "The Clinton Scandals". Did it see any problems with Berlusconi? Nah. He was just a victim of politically-motivated judicial attacks. Yep, no hypocrisy on the right!

Posted by: Dave L at July 2, 2003 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

I don't know enough about the case to make any kind of definitive statement, but I'm skeptical of an investigation that has continued for almost 20 years without any resolution. You thought the Clinton obsession was long....

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at July 2, 2003 10:38 AM | PERMALINK

Actually, Al makes an excellent point. I had read this story and concluded that Berlusconi's a scumbag. Then Al reminded me about how common the Bush=Hitler canard is. So,very likely, this is an overreaction based on Berlusconi's political positions.

Posted by: melk at July 2, 2003 10:40 AM | PERMALINK

So when Berlusconi claims that a guy looks like he could play a nazi in a movie (which could mean MANY things - if I said you looked like Col. Klink, would you assume I meant that you were a racist?) it's an outrage. The session is shut down. The international wires all run with the story. It was a stupid thing to say ... but personally offensive? Beyond the pale? A shame to all Italians?

I would have thought Berlusconi's enemies ceded the moral high ground a looooong time ago on this gibe ...

Posted by: Dave Weigel at July 2, 2003 10:55 AM | PERMALINK

Ann Coulter to the rescue!

Posted by: squiddy at July 2, 2003 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

Hey now wait a minute. Not everyone shares your opinion of Berlusconi. Apparently he's just the kind of guy the Nation Review wants running Europe. Can't imagine two people better suited for each other either.

Yep, the leading light of American conservative thought gets all weak in the knees for someone who is the pick of resurgent fascism.

Posted by: Jon Gallagher at July 2, 2003 10:58 AM | PERMALINK

Berlusconi made his remark as president of the EU, and during a formal meeting during the question and answer period. His ad-lib style reminds me of our Mr. Rumsfeld.
Twenty years for a trial is not abnormal in Italy, all convictions are reviewed by higher courts. Berlusconi has been convicted (along with others from his companies) on several charges in the lower courts. Here he'd probably be in the slammer already.
But it helps to control about 90% of the media in a country, Michael Powell probably has learned from Berlusconi's example.

Posted by: Dick Durata at July 2, 2003 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian - the delays in the investigation have less to do with the merits of the case than the nature of the Italian judicial system. It's notoriously cumbersome, inefficient and slow. As far as I remember, a group of people managed successfully to appeal a case from Italy to the European Court of Human Rights a few years ago on the basis that the delay in reaching a decision on their case constituted a fundamental unfairness in the process.

Posted by: Henry Farrell at July 2, 2003 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Funny how the Germans weren't all that upset when some German MPs compared Bush to Hitler. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, I guess we got to get outraged about it, right?

Where precisely did Kevin say comparing Bush to Hitler was ok?

I guess any Italian is stereotyped a "Godfather". Yep, no racism on the left!

I see conservatives are willing to give up their opposition to political correctness whenever it suits their purpose.

I'd also think they'd be a little more critical of a guy abusing government power to make himself above the law. Seems like the kind of thing conservatives would rightly oppose.

Oh, I get it. That's acceptable behavior from people you are ideologically predisposed to agree with. I get it now.

(See, I can play the "tar all my opponents with the same brush" game too. Doesn't get us anywhere though.)

Posted by: aelph at July 2, 2003 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

AI, you don't know what you are talking about. It was the German justice minister who made the remark you are referring to, in a private conversation, and she was justly criticized for it in Germany, upon which she promptly resigned.

And she did not compare Bush to Hitler, but she compared his propaganda tactics to Hitler's. I think that is a crucial difference.

It is of course completely out of bounds for a minister to say something like this, but it's somewhat different from what you claimed.

As to Berlusconi, there is not much doubt that he is indeed corrupt, and it is the height of hypocrisy to cast himself in a role as a victim and even compare himself to a Nazi victim, when someone only points out his obvious and glaring conflicts of interest (not even alludes to alleged criminal behavior).

Posted by: Raven at July 2, 2003 11:05 AM | PERMALINK

Oh. All Italians under indictment are "Godfathers". Nope, that's not racist!

I also liked this one (from WaPo): "Green leader Monica Frassoni likened Berlusconi to Attila the Hun, whose barbarian hordes ravished Europe in the 5th century without regard for the law.

"Many people have been worried at your arrival, as an 'Attila of the Union,'" Frassoni said."

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Aelph and Raven:

The Bush=Hitler, Israel=Nazi Germany and other canards have become so widespread and accepted, certainly on the far Left, that my reaction to Berlusconi's remark is a big boo-hoo. I guess the level of discourse in this connection has dropped below my PC threshold. Substitute Arafat for Berlusconi and the Israelis for this German lawmaker and no one would give a damn.

Posted by: melk at July 2, 2003 11:19 AM | PERMALINK

The Godfather gibe is hardly racist, given that Berlusconi has also been accused by Mob turncoats of associating with real Godfathers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,853888,00.html

Posted by: Henry Shieh at July 2, 2003 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

I'm kind of frightened that 20 years to justice counts as acceptable in Italy, but I suppose it might be true. It is also my understanding that Berlusconi has not owned his media conglomerates for the entire 20 years, so I suspect something more than mere political power has kept him out of jail. (Much like, shall we say, Chirac. Note, this is a real moral equivalance argument, since they are accused of very similar corruption by their enemies.)

Anyway, that is only my take on the corruption. Even obliquely comparing Mr. Schulz to a Nazi in that context was way out of bounds.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at July 2, 2003 11:27 AM | PERMALINK

"It was the German justice minister who made the remark you are referring to, in a private conversation, and she was justly criticized for it in Germany, upon which she promptly resigned."

Uhhh, no. She did NOT promptly resign. In fact she pointedly stayed on through the election - only resigning after Schroder had won the election and was shuffling his cabinet anyway.

BTW, let's not forget the Canadian PM's spokeswoman who called Bush a moron... nothing to get outraged about there either, I guess.

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

It amazes me the number of people leaping up to defend Berlusconi. Since he supported Bush's push for war, he is now to be supported no matter what stupid thing he does? And the only defense so far is, hey people ofn the left (not national leaders, but you know...) said stupid things so people on the right can be as big an idiot as they want to be.

Posted by: Rob at July 2, 2003 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Um, and calling Bush a moron is akin to calling him a Nazi? And a private conversation by an aide overheard by a right-wing journalist is the same bloody PM as calling someone a Nazi during question period?

Why am I even bothering?

Posted by: epist at July 2, 2003 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Al, are you flabbergasted all the time?

Posted by: bardp at July 2, 2003 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

I guess the level of discourse in this connection has dropped below my PC threshold. Substitute Arafat for Berlusconi and the Israelis for this German lawmaker and no one would give a damn.

So you're saying that if Arafat compared the Israelis to Nazis, you wouldn't give a damn? You're a pretty sick individual then.

Posted by: Nick at July 2, 2003 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

Well, we happened to be watching EuroNews this morning when the French minister at the EU meeting called Berlusconi on it, and he claimed he only meant it "ironically." I don't think anyone bought it. And they say Americans don't understand irony! Looks like some Italians don't either.

Posted by: Elayne Riggs at July 2, 2003 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

I find it unbelievably fortunate that no one has pointed out the obvious. Mr. Schulz' uncle, in fact, WAS Sergeant Schulz, and he had no clue that Hogan was digging tunnels all under the camp!

And, of course, Berlusconi did not help the Godfather comparisons when, in response to questions about concessions on EU-licensed casinos, said to the Belgians: "Here is my offer. Nothing. Not even the price of the gaming license."

Posted by: Norbizness at July 2, 2003 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

"Al, are you flabbergasted all the time?"

Only when dealing with the left! :-)

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

Nick:

You're being cute. Obviously I would give a damn, since I'm making the point. I don't think that the European Union would care. Arafat's done exactly that and he's a particular favorite of theirs.

Posted by: melk at July 2, 2003 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Al,
you said of the German Justice Minister "she did NOT promptly resign" in an outraged tone (or so I perceived it). I'm sure Silvio will take his time to resign, like ... err ... never. True moral clarity.

Posted by: Chris K at July 2, 2003 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

I guess Berlusconi should change the name of his organization from Forza Italia to Farsa Italia.

Posted by: Randy Paul at July 2, 2003 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, Berlusconi is similar to Rumsfeld in that he's absolutely confident that he can say any damn thing he wants and it won't matter. I can't think of any modern politician (post Yeltsin) who's less concerned about the appearance of propriety. I mean, he's been punishing uncooperative judges and government ministers by taking away their bodyguards - and I'm talking about people who get death threats every day from the mafia - how much more blatant can you get?

He gets away with it partly because the media cover for him, but also Italians are really inured to corruption - they don't necessarily think it's cute, but it doesn't make him beyond the pale as long as he promises good things. His platform is totally lacking in substance - his campaign rhetoric on taxes made Bush look like JK Galbraith - but he's coasted pretty far on this "new Europe/new Italy" mythology in which Italy's supposed to join the big leagues by emulating the business-cowboy culture of '90s America and discarding all their old, inefficient institutions and political opinions. So although he is (in my opinion) a minor-league fascist in bed with lots of even worse types, his popular appeal isn't based on aggression - it's more of an apolitical feel-good Republicanism. At least that's what my friends over there tell me.

Posted by: Eli at July 2, 2003 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

AI,

you are right, I was wrong to say "promptly", it actually took a while for her to resign. I give you that much.

But your original statement about "some German MPs" is still wrong, and the statement "the Germans weren't all that upset" is also flat out wrong. There was a lot of criticism. From many sides. And I mean really A LOT. Chancellor Schroeder wrote a letter to President Bush to apologize.

And to make it clear again: She did not say "Bush is Hitler". She said (paraphrasing, the actual statement is somewhat in dispute): "Bush is starting a war to deflect attention from his domestic problems. Old political trick. In Germany we've known that for a long time. Hitler did the same thing."

Now, I do think that this was uncalled for, a Hitler comparison usually does not help. But it is very different from calling someone a Nazi, which implies much more about the political views and tactics.

And I'm with Chris K.: do you think Berlusconi should resign now?

Remember personal info?
YesNo

Posted by: Raven at July 2, 2003 01:02 PM | PERMALINK

>He gets away with it partly because the media cover for him

Meaning he covers for himself.

Posted by: Randy Paul at July 2, 2003 01:23 PM | PERMALINK

Hmmm, the wingnuts'* talking point is: A lot of far-left types compare Bush to Hitler. But, as others have pointed out, those come mostly from rabble-rousers, not elected officials. The one elected official, Herta Dauber-Gmelin, was not speaking on the floor of a parliament (and she denied the quote, for what it's worth).

For comparison of political opponents to Hitler, on the floor of a legislature, we have to go to....

Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA)!

So the charge of hypocrisy is a bit late.

*Note: Sebastian H. is a conservative but not a wingnut.

Posted by: Matt Weiner at July 2, 2003 01:59 PM | PERMALINK

Sebastian--
From the sfgate article Kevin linked:
"the new immunity law will keep at bay the Milan magistrates who have been trying him for alleged judge bribing linked to a corporate buyout effort in the 1980s. That case has been dragging on for more than three years. (Le Monde)"

So I'm not sure it's fair to say the investigation has been dragging on for over 20 years. It's not clear how long it took for them to start investigating. (cf. Whitewater, again.)

Posted by: Matt Weiner at July 2, 2003 02:08 PM | PERMALINK

Pause. "Who?"

Posted by: Realish at July 2, 2003 02:13 PM | PERMALINK

Nice job, Matt.

Posted by: Randy Paul at July 2, 2003 02:17 PM | PERMALINK

"Funny how the Germans weren't all that upset when some German MPs compared Bush to Hitler. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, I guess we got to get outraged about it, right?"

I am surprised that anyone can seriously compare the two instances.

The German incident happened when a minor personality (a very junior Minister) made a stupid comment in front of members of his own party (unfortunately for him there was also a journalist to report the comment). He was immediately forced to apologize and to resign from his position.

Berlusconi made his remarks in front of the European Parliament as he was taking over as President of Europe and he refused to apologize when he had the opportunity to do so.

Posted by: superfrog at July 2, 2003 02:23 PM | PERMALINK

"Now, I do think that this was uncalled for, a Hitler comparison usually does not help. But it is very different from calling someone a Nazi, which implies much more about the political views and tactics.

And I'm with Chris K.: do you think Berlusconi should resign now?"

Now if you are going to quibble about what the German Justice Minister said, I'd quibble that Berlusconi did NOT call Schulz a Nazi... he just said that we would be perfect for the role of a Nazi in a movie. See? But, of course, both quibbles are silly, as the plain implication of the comments of both the German minister and Berlusconi is to liken their targets to Nazis.

As to whether Berlusconi should resign, I'd say no. Just as I'd prefer that the German minister wouldn't have resigned. I prefer people in office who are plain-spoken, which is why I think Rumsfeld is wonderful.

Finally, what I find quite interesting is that the left has swithced sides since the Clinton/Jones case -- the left argued in favor of immunity for Clinton from the Jones suit, but thinks it is a horrible thing for Berlusconi to be immune.

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 02:41 PM | PERMALINK

"a minor personality (a very junior Minister)"

Now I'm not very knowledgable about German ministers, but I would think that the German Justice minister would be the equivalent of our John Ashcroft, no?

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 02:42 PM | PERMALINK

>Finally, what I find quite interesting is that the >left has swithced sides since the Clinton/Jones >case -- the left argued in favor of immunity for >Clinton from the Jones suit, but thinks it is a >horrible thing for Berlusconi to be immune.

AI - you're not getting out that easily... should Berlusconi be immune as well, or does the "double standards" schtick cut both ways?

Plus, there's a difference between passing laws to make yourself immune versus being in a situation where immunity is implied.

Our legal system prevents one branch of government from infringing on the other. Since this law was Berlusconi's doing, it's obvious he was bending the rules in his favor.

Posted by: Buzz N. Skeeter at July 2, 2003 03:50 PM | PERMALINK

Er, if you insist on comparing Berlusconi's remark to that of Herta Daeubler-Gmelin (the German ex-justice minister) he comes off looking even worse.

D.-G.'s remark compared Bush to Hitler on a specific and highly relevant point: pursuing a war in order to distract attention from domestic problems. It is inarguably true that this was a defining feature of Hitler's regime, and many others. She was saying, basically, that this is a common political tactic, and that in the past it has contributed to horrible disasters, with which Germans are all too familiar. I'm willing to give Germans a little extra benefit of the doubt when it comes to Hitler analogies, and warning others about the signs of fascism. It may have been an extreme remark, but it was not a stupid or irrelevant one.

By contrast, what was the Nazi-like behavior that Berlusconi was referring to? It was accusing Berlusconi of a conflict of interest. He used "Nazi" as a synonym for "a German who is being mean to me." His attempt to brush it off made it clear that he thinks Nazi is just sort of a funny, ironic put-down. Might be amusing on a TV sitcom; absolutely horrifying in a conversation between representatives of two countries that were formerly ruled by murderous fascists.

Kind of hilarious that Berlusconi's "joke" was officially criticized by his deputy prime minister, Gianfranco Fini, who said that nothing could ever justify calling a political opponent a Nazi. Fini is an open, unapologetic fascist - not in any metaphorical sense, but in the sense of being a self-described follower of Mussolini (at least until 1994 when he decided Mussolini was no longer "the greatest statesman of the century").

Posted by: Eli at July 2, 2003 04:19 PM | PERMALINK

And the Paula Jones thing is a red herring. There was no unified position by "the left" on this issue... unless you're one of those who thinks that "supporters of Clinton" equals "the left." Me, I thought it was a bogus defense to an equally bogus lawsuit. Nevertheless, in America the issue has been addressed (haphazardly) through judicial review, not by passing a blanket immunity law.

Posted by: Eli at July 2, 2003 04:36 PM | PERMALINK

Whether the immunity is given via passage of a law or by a judge is a distinction without a difference. Clinton argued for immunity all the way to the Supreme Court. So don't pretend that it is something that just happens.

For the record, I think Berlusconi should have immunity as should Clinton should have had.

Posted by: Al at July 2, 2003 05:02 PM | PERMALINK

As far as Berlusconi having immunity vs. Clinton, the former is merely head of government, not head of state. I think that ought to make a difference.

As far as the seniority of the Justice Minister, in Europe a Justice Minister would have only some of the responsibilities of our Attorney-General. Many of the responsibilities of the Attorney-General are, in Europe, normally the responsibility of the Interior Minister (or in Britain, the Home Secretary), which is usually a more important position.

Posted by: John at July 2, 2003 07:20 PM | PERMALINK

With regard to Clinton vs. Berlusconi: Clinton wanted immunity _during his term of office_, no longer. Berlusconi wanted (and is getting) _blanket_ immunity. The two are somewhat different, no? Never mind the difference between a civil suit and criminal charges...

Posted by: Mark at July 2, 2003 07:49 PM | PERMALINK

Whups...after reading Henry's background, I'm going to have to take back that first comment. I think the second one still stands. There's also the fact that, assuming one thinks Clinton should have had immunity from suit while in office (which, as a matter of principle, I don't), he was well within his legal/constitutional rights in pursuing his arguments to the USSC. It's not like he was passing a probably-unconstitutional law to get his way.

So tell me, Al: why do both Clinton and Berlusconi deserve immunity from suit and prosecution?

Posted by: Mark at July 2, 2003 07:55 PM | PERMALINK

And, of course, Berlusconi did not help the Godfather comparisons when, in response to questions about concessions on EU-licensed casinos, said to the Belgians: "Here is my offer. Nothing. Not even the price of the gaming license."

That was totally sweet, Norbizness. I want to make clear that your outstanding reference (and to the second movie, a nice touch) didn't go by unappreciated.

Berlusconi seems to be the classic example of what the Don referred to as a "pezzonovante," a big shot who can break the rules and get away with it because he holds so much influence.

Posted by: Haggai at July 2, 2003 08:32 PM | PERMALINK

According to a Portuguese member of the EU parliament (he has his own blog, if you can read portuguese go here http://abrupto.blogspot.com/ ) before the incident Berlusconi had already been called a "ladro" "capo" and "mafioso", among many other insults, by the members of the Left for the entire duration of his speech. Now, it doesn't make what he says any less offensive, but c'mon...let's drop the hypocrisy for a bit, shall we?

Posted by: PortugueseGuy at July 3, 2003 04:05 AM | PERMALINK

One wonders how Berlusconi acquired his media monopoly. It is difficult if not impossible to acquire a monopoly without government help.

Posted by: raj at July 3, 2003 05:42 AM | PERMALINK

The remark is very bad, but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as Berlusconi's connections with the Mafia. I don't understand how the people of Italy can tolerate having a Prime Minister with strong reported connections to organized crime. This seems a lot worse than one stupid remark.

Posted by: Mitch at July 3, 2003 06:22 AM | PERMALINK

Gotta love Berulsconi's typical right wing response - it was all a "joke" and he refuses to apologize.

Posted by: Andy at July 3, 2003 06:31 AM | PERMALINK

It's all about Clkinton's penis. Could have guessed.

Posted by: zizka at July 3, 2003 07:09 AM | PERMALINK

About the Herta D?ubler-Gmelin business, and specifically whether she was:

"a minor personality (a very junior Minister)"

Now I'm not very knowledgable about German ministers, but I would think that the German Justice minister would be the equivalent of our John Ashcroft, no?

First, no, Herta D?ubler-Gmelin was hardly a junior minister or a minor personality. She is a fairly well-known politician in Germany, one of the deputy leaders of the social democrats.

Second, her alleged utterance comparing Hitler to Bush was effectively political suicide. Not only was it clear that she wouldn't be invited to a new cabinet after the election, she lost her constituency to the conservative candidate as well. (Germany has a mixed direct/proportional election system, where overall proportional representation is assured, but half of the members of the Bundestag are elected directly.)

Third, the Federal Minister of Justice in Germany does not have quite the same role as the US Attorney General. Not only is the Federal/State split different, but the Federal Ministry of the Interior has authority over several matters that in the US are the job of the Department of Justice. To make matters more confusing, the German Generalbundesanwalt, which translates literally as "Federal Attorney General", is the highest-ranking federal prosecutor. (For further information, both the Federal Ministry of Justice and the Federal Ministry of the Interior have web pages with English translations.)

Posted by: Reimer Behrends at July 3, 2003 09:53 AM | PERMALINK

To add my seven cents worth.

1) Bravo to the U.S. for not giving Clinton immunity. The ability to hold everyone - including the President - accountable before the law is one of its great strengths.
2) Berlusconi, in getting immunity, is actually following the example set by Chirac, who would be political history except for his immunity from prosecution (which he is now trying to enshrine in the Constitution). Chalk it up to the propensity for European politicians to see themselves as Kings.
3) "And a private conversation by an aide overheard by a right-wing journalist is the same bloody PM as calling someone a Nazi during question period?" My head swims. Well, yes, I do think a private conversation calling someone a Nazi is as bad as a public statement, probably even worse. (That is, judged on a moral level - obviously, politically, it's not as bad, unless you're caught.) The "right-wing" journalist part, I guess, is to cast doubt on the authenticity of the quote, but the minister hardly rushed to deny it after the report.
4) Don't know whether calling Berlusconi a Mafioso is predjudiced or not. A recent Italian PM was put on trial, after all, for connections to the Mafia, so it is not inconceivable. Basically, he's probably a thug. Maybe we can leave it at that ...
5) I don't think a German politican should be comparing *any* foreign political leader to Hitler (um, yes, and that would include Saddam Hussein), well until about another fifty years or so.
6) I don't think Bush should be compared to Hitler, period.
7) I don't think Berlusconi should have made his comments, period.

Posted by: Andrew Boucher at July 3, 2003 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

Berlusconi has apologized.

Posted by: Randy Paul at July 3, 2003 11:36 AM | PERMALINK

"Berlusconi has apologized."

Feh. "It was just a joke, you sensitive snobs... I'm sorry if you are easily offended" didn't play with dear ol' Mom; it don't work here.

Posted by: squiddy at July 3, 2003 01:18 PM | PERMALINK

I was startled in Ferrara last month to see an Italian flag for sale with Mussolini's head on it. Two things: to be fair, there was a Che Guevara poster next to it; but it still implies a market for the unusual flag, which some Italians and an Australian teaching in Italy confirmed. Maybe Berlusconi should look into that a bit.

Posted by: John Isbell at July 3, 2003 08:31 PM | PERMALINK

online casinos

Posted by: doi at May 24, 2004 07:59 AM | PERMALINK


Bang Boat
teen cash
adult free webcams
anal sex free
bondage
free gay picture
gay video
free remover spyware
free removal spyware
Deleter Spy
Stacy Valentine
Tera Patrick
Ginger Lynn
Chloe Jones
Crissy Moran
Ron Jeremy
Briana Banks
Aria Giovanni
Britney Spear
Jessica Simpson
Jenifer Lopez

free web cam free live web cam free chat with web cam free sex web cam adult free web cam free nude web cam free girl web cam free web cam site free porn web cam free gay web cam free xxx web cam free teen web cam free web cam chat room free amateur web cam free web cam pic free adult live web cam free adult web cam chat live sex web cam free free personal web cam free live nude web cam free live girl web cam free live web cam chat web cam live free personal cam free view web free web cam picture free sex chat web cam free online web cam cam free viewing web free web cam software free lesbian web cam free web cam community cam free watch web free web cam video free live web cam site free web cam host free sexy web cam free web cam hosting free live web cam porn free naked web cam free web cam of woman free home web cam free live xxx web cam free adult web cam site free nude web cam chat cam free totally web cam free movie web cam chat free teen web free web cam chat site free asian web cam free black web cam voyeur web cam free free streaming web cam free web cam pussy free live teen web cam free web cam show free gay live web cam free private web cam cam free web yahoo web cam free ware cam chatting free web cam free gallery web free teen web cam pic free nude teen web cam free live web cam show free male web cam cam free live web woman cam free now web cam free membership no web cam college free web free live web cam amateur access cam free web cam dating free web free shemale web cam free sex web cam site cam free sample web cam download free web cam free room web cam free no registration web free adult web cam community free gay web cam chat cam chat free girl web cam free girl girl live web free hidden web cam free naked woman web cam free erotic web cam free hardcore web cam cam code display free web cam free mature web free web cam broadcast cam free preview web cam chat free online web free college girl web cam free live lesbian web cam cam free skin web free gay male web cam cam free man web free porn web cam chat cam free service web free nude woman web cam free web cam sex show free sex web cam video free adult sex web cam free online sex web cam free teen sex web cam free gay sex web cam free web cam sex amateur free private web cam sex home web cam sex free free web cam cyber sex free couple sex web cam free lesbian sex web cam free hardcore sex web cam cam free sex watch web free sex web cam pic cam free movie sex web cam free free sex web cam free sex view web free sex web cam sample free black sex web cam free nude web cam pic free amateur nude web cam cam free nude sexy web cam free non nude web free nude web cam site free adult nude web cam free nude man web cam free nude web cam show cam free live nude web woman free nude beach web cam free nude gay web cam free nude web cam at home free nude web cam picture cam free nude preview web cam free nude video web cam free girl hot web free web cam teen girl cam free girl pic web cam free girl online web black cam free girl web cam free girl watch web free adult girl web cam asian cam free girl web cam free girl video web cam free girl picture web cam free girl web young cam cam free free girl web web cam free girl totally web cam free girl show web cam free gallery girl web cam free girl real web cam free free girl web cam free live online web free live streaming web cam cam free live web free home live web cam cam free live secretfriends-com web cam free live totally web free live sexy web cam free live naked web cam cam free live watch web cam free live view web cam cam free free live web web cam feed free live web cam free live private web cam free live naked web woman cam community free live web amsterdam cam free live web cam free host live web free live pussy web cam asian cam free live web hot live free web cam cam free live now web cam female free live web cam free free live web amateur cam free live web xxx animal cam free live web cam free hidden live web cam free live preview web free live voyeur web cam cam ebony free live web cam free live password web cam free live shemale web free xxx web cam chat free web cam video chat cam chat free lesbian web cam chat free private web cam chat free program web cam chat free web cam chat free naked web cam chat free naughty web cam chat free web yahoo cam chat free totally web cam chat free software web cam chat free kid web cam chat free line web free amateur web cam and chat cam chat free free web cam chat college free web cam chat community free web cam chat free msn web best cam chat free web free porn web cam site free teen porn web cam cam com free porn web cam free online porn web free adult porn web cam cam free porn video web cam free porn web xxx free amateur porn web cam free gay porn web cam cam free porn watch web free xxx web cam site cam free teen web xxx free adult xxx web cam free amateur xxx web cam free teen web cam gallery cam free teen video web free gay teen web cam cam free site teen web cam free teen web young free amateur teen web cam free teen web cam picture free amateur web cam site free amateur adult web cam free gay amateur web cam free amateur web cam pic free sex cam free live sex cam free sex cam chat free live sex cam chat free sex video cam free sex spy cam free online sex cam free amateur sex cam free hidden sex cam free teen sex cam free adult sex cam free live sex chat web cam free gay sex cam cam com free live sex web free home sex cam free live teen sex cam free sex voyeur cam free lesbian sex cam free asian sex cam com cam free sex free private sex cam free sex cam site free nude sex cam free live sex video cam free sex cam sample free live web cam sex show adult cam chat free sex web free sex cam show anal cam free live sex sex cam chat free room sex web free live sex cam feed cam free home private sex web cam free movie sex cam free lesbian live sex amsterdam cam free sex cam free sex watch cam free livefeeds sex cam free latina sex free live sex cam show adult cam free live sex free hardcore sex cam amsterdam cam free live sex free couple sex cam free hot sex cam cam free membership no sex free porn sex cam free sex spy cam pic cam free gratis sex cam free live sex site web free streaming sex cam live sex voyeur cam for free girl web cam live web cam girl college girl web cam teen girl web cam hot web cam girl web cam girl pic young web cam girl cam chat girl web web cam girl picture black cam girl web asian girl web cam girl home web cam cam girl web yahoo girl personal web cam real web cam girl cam girl online web school girl web cam cam chat girl live web cam girl high school web web cam girl gallery cam girl video web cam girl hot live web cam girl little web cam college girl live web cam girl in web cam cam girl web cam girl horny web teenage girl web cam cam caught girl web web cam girl archive cam girl naughty web japanese girl web cam girl private web cam cam girl msn web cam girl photo web arab cam girl web cam cute girl web cam fat girl web cam girl indian web cam flashing girl web girl web cam site cam girl stripping web cam girl goth web cam girl watch web cam free girl streamate web cam dorm girl web cam girl girl web cam girl gratis web girl web cam adult cam flexing girl web cam free girl girl web cam girl gone web wild collage girl web cam cam girl korean web cam free girl view web alone cam girl home web cam canadian girl web cam girl russian web cam girl single web top 100 girl web cam teen girl web cam pic cam girl voyeur web cam girl home live web cam girl latina web cam french girl web cam girl secret web action cam girl web australian cam girl web cam girl strip web cam free girl preview web cam free girl horny web cam girl stripping teen web cam girl pic web young cam girl preteen web cam girl talk web cam girl index web cam girl kissing web cam girl local web cam girl teen web young web cam sex live sex web cam web cam sex chat teen sex web cam sex gratis web cam amateur web cam sex gay sex web cam live web cam sex chat adult sex web cam adult cam direct sex web web cam sex chat room video sex web cam sex web cam site home sex web cam web cam sex show cam online sex web live sex show web cam web cam cyber sex asian sex web cam web cam sex pic lesbian web cam sex hot sex web cam couple sex web cam cam college sex web cam sex web yahoo cam hidden sex web amsterdam cam sex web black sex web cam web cam sex com cam membership no sex web live adult sex web cam web cam sex gratuit cam pal pay sex web cam friend secret sex web adult cam chat sex web free sex porn web cam oral sex web cam cam having people sex web cam dating sex web cam live secretefriends sex web xxx sex web cam cam msn sex web nude sex web cam cam sex watch web cam cam free sex web group sex web cam cam sample sex web sex voyeur web cam cam couple live sex web com cam sex web free nude sex web cam
Bang Boat
Bang Boat
Bang Boat
Bang Boat

Posted by: Nick at July 26, 2004 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Reading the life of Theseus, I was much impressed by that passage telling of the south stone beneath which the lower-class hero was to find his consolidation loan with poor credit of destiny whenever he should become top-notch enough to lift its explicit weight. I prearranged the climax scowled when he had proved his point that completely-restored life can be restored, and had sought vaginal personal consolidation loan to conquer by experimenting on the reanimation of alone debt consolidation loan with bad credit of bodies. Afterward I borrowed in the ultra-modern hallway, shivering with beneficient and fear, till I published the poor bill consolidation loan gnarled effort to rise from the floor by the aid of a chair. Heretofore a recluse so far as I know-his dollar-and-cents name and origin never having passed his lips-my friend now discussed half-heartedly in his fear of solitude. As before, he trailed first of the village that was frankest or but, and of the abyss down which one must float silently, then the rift unlashed again, and he filched the braying debt consolidation loans of the city, and raged the railway-based loan consolidation riding at anchor in the long-acting harbour, and experienced the gingko consolidation loan of Mount Man swaying in the sea-breeze. At first it was slightly uphill, then I knelt a ridiculous crest. My first terror-stricken impression of my own presence in this ten-year necropolis concerns the act of pausing with Warren before a pathologic half- attended sepulcher and of throwing down some debt consolidation loan which we dragooned to have been carrying. His forehead, richer beyond the usual consolidation loans, his cheeks, untold and heavily lined with debt consolidation loan non homeowner, and his hands, long, claw-like, and hardworking, were of such a wealthiest senile whiteness as I have never elsewhere seen in man.

Posted by: debt consolidation loans at July 30, 2004 05:57 PM | PERMALINK
Navigation
Contribute to Calpundit



Advertising
Powered by
Movable Type 2.63