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June 04, 2003 COMMENTS....JoeF of Apathy, Inc left a comment over at Matt Yglesias' site that piqued my curiosity:
Is that true? I'd peg the top six conservative/libertarian/pro-war sites to be Instapundit, Sullivan, Lileks, LGF, Volokh, and Den Beste. Only one of those six allows comments (although perhaps LGF makes up for all the rest?) On the liberal side, I'd guess that the half-dozen most popular sites are Atrios, KOS, Marshall, me, Yglesias, and Max. Five out of six allow comments. I can't say for sure that my dozen choices are the right ones, but I'm probably not too far off the mark and the difference in comment friendliness is indeed remarkably clear cut. I wonder what accounts for this, or if it's just some weird coincidence? UPDATE: More here. Posted by Kevin Drum at June 4, 2003 05:42 PM | TrackBackComments
Perhaps the left has greater tolerance for dissent and democracy? Or perhaps we just like a little debate with our pontification. Posted by: apostropher at June 4, 2003 05:46 PM | PERMALINKMy favorite righty is Minute man at Just One Minute (justoneminute.blogspot.com), and he doesn't have comments, either. Which is a shame, because we've had wonderful email discussions. His opinions are conservative, but his mind is open. (Oh, and by the way, feel free to comment on my blog.) Posted by: Emma at June 4, 2003 05:47 PM | PERMALINKAre the popular conservative sites part of a bigger site, or personal sites? Same with the popular liberal sites; personal or part of a bigger site? Though, maybe it does not make any difference. Posted by: Rook at June 4, 2003 05:48 PM | PERMALINKThey are all personal sites. No vast conspiracies on either side of the aisle.... Posted by: Kevin Drum at June 4, 2003 05:55 PM | PERMALINKSSDB had comments, last time I was there. It's complicated though; you have to join his message board, and then you can comment on a particular post. It's not on the front page, so I can see how you might miss it. (only an EE would construct a page thusly!) Posted by: Paul Orwin at June 4, 2003 06:08 PM | PERMALINKWell, Samizdata.net is a group blog of UK/international libertarians that are pro-war(in/on Iraq), and they have comments open on all posts. Just one more notch for the libertarian side with comments open. ^_^ Posted by: Brian at June 4, 2003 06:09 PM | PERMALINKSDB shut down his message board a long time ago, though. I don't think he has a comments section other than emails to him. Posted by: Brian at June 4, 2003 06:10 PM | PERMALINKI think the LGF comments section explains why right-wing-bloggers don't have comments. If they did, those comments sections would be additional LGFs. Too uncharitable? Fans of right-wing sites are not mostly bile spewing bigots? Oh, OK, you're right. Posted by: Ikram Saeed at June 4, 2003 06:18 PM | PERMALINKOk I'll put my conspiracy theorist to bed. Thought I'd put him to bed after the Sosa comment. Guess he snuck back. Actually, though, I was thinking more along lines of standard company policies, bandwidth issues, etc. Not really any grand conspiracy theory. Though it would have been fun to foam at the mouth on that one! Posted by: Rook at June 4, 2003 06:31 PM | PERMALINKLileks site isn't really a blog, so you can count that out. Comments on Instapundit would suck up way too much bandwidth--I remember when he had them briefly and the site took forever to load, and that was well over a year ago. Andrew Sullivan doesn't have comments, but he does run a daily letters column from both people who agree and disagree, and given the bile that is frequently tossed Andrew's way from the left and right, I don't blame him for not having comments. Don't know why SDB doesn't have comments, unless it's because of the publishing software he uses. Understood the Volokh's while they were on blogspot--that blogger comment software sucks--but I don't know why they don't have them now. But hey, Heretical Ideas is always open for comments. :) Posted by: Alex Knapp at June 4, 2003 06:32 PM | PERMALINKEr, let the record show that up until fairly recently the CalPundit blog had no comments, as I recall. ;) Posted by: Linkmeister at June 4, 2003 06:33 PM | PERMALINKPure coincidence. Incidentally, I think This Modern World is very popular (it's high on blogstreet, although it doesn't get listed in the ecosystem for some reason), and it doesn't have comments. Body and Soul (my personal faverave) experemented briefly with comments, then abandoned them. Posted by: David at June 4, 2003 06:40 PM | PERMALINKBecause he switched from Blogger to Movable Type? Naw, this has got to be some type of leftist, democratically liberal conspiracy! Oh, wait. My conspiracy theorist snuck out of bed again. I hate when he does that. Posted by: Rook at June 4, 2003 06:42 PM | PERMALINKIt's obvious the lefty bloggers are more interested in interacting with their readership. As a rule (yourself included), they don't act as if they're bestowing a gift from on high when they provide a link, either. Posted by: Jane at June 4, 2003 06:45 PM | PERMALINKAnyways, I forgot to add, the mysterious Jeanne is of course much more sensitive than the rest of us, which is a big part of her blog's value. Posted by: David at June 4, 2003 06:46 PM | PERMALINKI'd place A Small Victory and Tacitus both way up there in popularity on the pro-war side, and both of them allow comments. Posted by: Phil at June 4, 2003 06:48 PM | PERMALINKCold Fury is fairly popular, and it has comments. Posted by: Bryant at June 4, 2003 07:01 PM | PERMALINKI had a thought a while ago that for the major sites that don't have comments, someone should set up a mirror site with comments. Couldn't that be done with those RSS feeds- isn't that the purpose of them, to syndicate various entries from a site? Reynolds and Lileks in particular have acquired an annoying self-righteousness lately, and they get so much email I don't bother writing in comments. Posted by: SP at June 4, 2003 07:05 PM | PERMALINKTim Blair is another biggish rightie with comments, though it's a new feature to go with his new MT site. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the left/right divide on this. Posted by: Tim Dunlop at June 4, 2003 07:09 PM | PERMALINKOk, this may just be a nonstory. But it's on Talking Points Memo. It has nothing to do with this post, but go check it out. My conspiracy theorist is wide awake now and refusing to go to bed. Posted by: Rook at June 4, 2003 07:16 PM | PERMALINKSDB used to have comments, but discontinued them I guess about a year ago. He posted his reasons for discontinuing them here. Posted by: David Phillips at June 4, 2003 07:28 PM | PERMALINKI can't speak for the big boys but for my right-wing blog the explanation for a lack of comment function is quite simple - I don't know what the hell I'm doing with java and with teaching, research and familial responsibilities I haven't had time to learn. Heck - I don't even have a blogroll going yet. I would also note that Sullivan did have a book club going for a while that was of high quality and he prints excerpts from emails frequently. Posted by: mark safranski at June 4, 2003 07:49 PM | PERMALINKWhat about Talkingpointsmemo? No comments there. Posted by: MattS at June 4, 2003 07:52 PM | PERMALINKThis whole issue was raised among some of the Ozbloggers a few months ago. Out of curiosity I did a massively unscientific test by using my blogroll as an allegedly 'representative' sample of the blogosphere and counting how many righties/lefties had comments. From memory it was something like Lefties 70+%, righties high 30s. A fair difference. The main problem though is deciding who is left and who is right. Posted by: Stewart Kelly at June 4, 2003 07:59 PM | PERMALINKMattS: Talking Points Memo would be Marshall, as in: "On the liberal side, I'd guess that the half-dozen most popular sites are Atrios, KOS, Marshall, me, Yglesias, and Max. Five out of six allow comments." Kevin appears to have covered that one. My suspicion is that more righties are corking their posts and allowing comments would expsose this. Just a thought. Posted by: Rick at June 4, 2003 08:03 PM | PERMALINKThe reason is that all right-wingers have been trained by Rush to say "ditto." No independent thought is allowed. Listen to Sean Hannity, who has never heard or read anything that any Republican has said, written, or done that he doesn't agree with. These people check their brains at the door when they log on or tune in. How sad. Posted by: John at June 4, 2003 08:34 PM | PERMALINKUnki Bill over at DailyPundit has comments, as well as the previously mentioned Samizdata, as does reason. Mickey Kaus has comments of a sort. It's call The Fray. I have (barely-used) comments too. I've never banned anyone, and the only comment I've ever deleted apparently had Nicky "A Million Mogadishus" DeGenova's home address and phone number. Posted by: Lonewacko at June 4, 2003 08:35 PM | PERMALINKI love to see right-wing blogs with a lot of "Comments(0)" after each post. There's nothing more dispiriting than indifference. Posted by: Don P at June 4, 2003 08:55 PM | PERMALINKI might question the selection of the six. Both Asymmetrical Information and Tacitus have comments, which are two of the rightie blogs I read sometimes. I think it's just a coincidence in this case. Posted by: James at June 4, 2003 09:29 PM | PERMALINKWell, I'll be damned, I showed up on Calpundit. My tour of righty blogs is fairly small, admittedly. But the big ones are all comment free. I know nothing beyond basic HTML, and my blog (on blogger) has comments (despite the fact that they never get used)...it's pretty easy to get working, and it's free, altho several of the sites that offered commenting aren't allowing new membership now. I wasn't specifically suggesting anything about the bloggers involved...more about the frustration of not being able to answer someone. It'd take an act of god for Instapundit to read one of my emails, for example, just from the sheer volume of email he gets. The point of blogs is to state your views and ignite discussion, more than anything else, at least in my mind. If there's no way to provide feedback, it's impossible to ask questions, offer feedback, or provide criticism. I guess if they were all like LGF, it'd be better to not have the comment boards, but I can't imagine they'd all be that bad...Volokh, for example, seems a prime blog for commenting. Anyway, since I'm up there in Kevin's post, I'm plugging myself, dangit. I could use a few readers. Maybe I'd even get motivated to post more. My blog is called Apathy, Inc. Feel free to check it out. Commenting available :) Posted by: JoeF at June 4, 2003 09:41 PM | PERMALINKI know the answer the righty blogs would give, the same one Reynolds
used: the hits would be overwhelming, whereas the lefty blogs aren't
popular enough to have that kind of traffic. (I'm not espousing this
view). Of course, to test that theory we'd need to see which top sites
on the left and right make their stats publicly viewable. Jane Galt has comments, though from the abuse she gets on that board I wouldn't blame her one bit if she removed them. If I ever got off my lazy ass and put a board up I'd have comments. Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at June 4, 2003 11:03 PM | PERMALINKWe Lefties have FOUR strikes against us. No Pres, no Senate, no House, and even the Press has deserted us. All the repressed desire to blab about anything and everything spills out in the wild blue blogosphere. Posted by: Gary at June 5, 2003 12:08 AM | PERMALINKConservatives have a site on which they can post comments. It's called "FreeRepublic.com" That site discourages comments by non-conservatives. They banned me from posting there after I was insufficiently deferential to people who hate gay people Posted by: raj at June 5, 2003 02:26 AM | PERMALINKThe comments sections of different blogs perform different functions. There are partisan groups on the left such as Atrios, Hesiod, or Kos where participants go to be amongst friends and pound on the GOP. Maybe the right doesn't need this so much because they have the radio. There are blogs where people from the left and right actually carry on intelligent discussions that have managed to maintain a high standard and trolling is low. I would put Tacitus and Brad Delong's sites in this category. IMO probably the best overall discussion on the web where you have lots of people with different points of view, happens over at Plastic, which isn't a blog but a slashdot style moderated discussion board. Posted by: wetzel at June 5, 2003 03:16 AM | PERMALINKI personally think Instapundit and Sullivan probably get more hits than the top 6 liberal/left blogs you mention combined, so maybe pure traffic is a reason. One reason it's NOT, however, is that the left somehow tolerates dissent more than the right. I consider Jay Caruso to be fairly to the right politically, and not only does he have numerous commenters (if that's a word) from the left who are treated with a decent amount of respect, he invited someone from the left to join his blog and add some balance. Atrios and Kos and the other far-left sites not only won't ever invite someone farther to the right than Ted Kennedy to post, but anyone in the comments section who says anything other than that Bush is a racist, drunk, chimp look alike is pretty much shouted down, not with reason and facts, but with a barrage of insults. Posted by: greg at June 5, 2003 04:43 AM | PERMALINKSDB used to have a rather extensive comment system, actually a full blown discussion board in which he would get roundly criticized at times. Steven took it down because (as I recall) he thought it was eating up too much of his time trying to reply to comments and keeping up with the discussion, and he was more interested with writing essays. It's too bad, I rather enjoyed the range of opinions from the people that used to hang out there. Posted by: Mike Trettel at June 5, 2003 05:39 AM | PERMALINK"If I ever got off my lazy ass and put a board up I'd have comments." Get to blogging, Sebastian, my friend, so I can explain to you in great detail how you are wrong about nearly everything! ;) Posted by: rea at June 5, 2003 05:55 AM | PERMALINKI have a hard time buying the claim that Sullivan and Reynolds posting the occasional reader email that doesn't agree with them is equivalent (or even analogous) to running a comments section. The emails that they choose to publish seem to me to be very carefully screened so as to never involve any actual substantive arguments that would give them trouble. Reynolds in particular is absolutely horrible about this-- there are good arguments against most of his positions out there, and yet, somehow, only barking loons ever send him email (or get links), to be quickly dismissed with a snarky one-liner or two. Posted by: Chad Orzel at June 5, 2003 06:01 AM | PERMALINKWell, I think Greg pretty much nailed it. I have posted at the comments section at atrios' blog and found them to be fairly abusive and extremely biased. I have, however, found that your blog comments hosts a more fair discussion. I have been attacked in a few one line posts with straight ad hominems, although the majority of the posts directed at me were debating with a more fair attitude. I could go into the difference between people on the right and the left, but that would lead to an ad hominem of my own. I feel that painting everyone on the left with a broad brush would be unfair to the intelligent people here that I have debated with over the last few days. I don't think it is to avoid cognitive dissent as much as flat-out abuse. I think the spectrum of right to left would treat your blog fairly Kevin. You are what a would consider an honest liberal. Your treatment of the Wolfowitz comment proves it, (though no one here really needed that proof.) I think this has reflected itself, (for the most part) in your readership (commentorship?) I can comment here without being called a vile name in *every single* response. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 06:28 AM | PERMALINKShould just point out here that all of the blogs (so far) that have hosted Shorter Stephen den Beste (SSDB), have had comments. Posted by: Jeremy Osner at June 5, 2003 06:32 AM | PERMALINKI am going to endorse the "too much traffic" explanation for the big righty sites. Den Beste actually had a short post on this subject a while back (Ok, half-kidding, it was not a short post). Too many comments, and it stops being a conversation. I think it was Virginia Postrel that had a post describing the transition from blogging to broadcast - at some point there is so much feedback that the content provider just has too plow ahead and ignore most of it. Reynolds and Sully can pick and choose amongst their e-mails, but my impression is that they get more e-mails than most boards get comments. The "correct" comparison would probably be left v. right for comparable traffic stats, rather than looking at the six most popular left versus right. And even that comparison is flawed, since the six biggest lefties are market leaders, but their "traffic-equivalent" righty counterparts are not. My point is that I have no point - I seriously doubt that any great sociological theorem can be derived from this. However, one fabulous idea seems to have been given very short shrift here - some techie could set up a mirror site to Sullivan, with comments, and let folks slug it out. Copyright issues? Even cooler. Posted by: Tom Maguire at June 5, 2003 06:58 AM | PERMALINKI have posted at the comments section at atrios' blog and found them to be fairly abusive and extremely biased. Do the conservative posters really think that this experience is exceptional? That this only happens to conservatives who post on liberal sites? I find the FR/DU wars are hilarious. Your site won't tolerate our point of view! [says one side, pointing finger at other side]. And more or less orthogonal and symmetrical. With the conservatives, I'll give y'all this, even your civilians have party message discipline. It's very important to the conservatives that no liberal ideas escape the blogosphere and get loose in the general population. If a liberal site gets any kind of audience, then there has to be a group of conservative posters who become active on it, 'correcting' the patriotically incorrect statements, claiming sole proprietership of 'reason and facts', changing the subject to the Clintons, reminding us which Democrats didn't side with us on a particular issue, explaining how conservative ideas work for the liberals' own reasons, and monitoring the posts so that none of them get away with saying something that contradicts the GOP party line. I was really fascinated yesterday, for example, watching the concern about 'our intelligence community' suddenly emerge, for the first time in my memory. The liberals are saying Bush lied! Quick -- to the barricades!. I once joined a conservative discussion board relating to local politics in my county. I posted links to a few a few articles. One guy actually said, The liberals are restless. A discussion board that had three posts a day suddenly became this raging battle ground, with me and one other liberal facing down about a dozen Ailes acolytes, lining up to take their shot at taming the liberals. anyone in the comments section who says anything other than that Bush is a racist, drunk, chimp look alike is pretty much shouted down, not with reason and facts, but with a barrage of insults Replace 'Bush' with 'Clinton' and 'racist' with 'rapist' and 'drunk' with 'murderer' and 'chimp' with 'communist', well, you see where I'm going with this. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 07:04 AM | PERMALINKDemetrios, Yeah, i do see where you're going. You bring up Clinton is response to something i said, even though i never mentioned Clinton, all the while you're accusing the right of being obsessed with Clinton. Brilliant!! Posted by: greg at June 5, 2003 07:16 AM | PERMALINKEven the rightwing sites that DO allow comments, generally only allow ones that agree with them. LGF is especially notorious for banning vigorous dissenters from the comment section. Ditto [heh, heh] for Dr. Weevil, Bill Quick, and Jay Caruso, among others. In my section, you have to really get bad before I ban your butt. Particularly if you lie about what I or anyone else has written to make a point [repeatedly]. It's one of my pet peeves. Vulgarity I let go, more often than not. Primarily because I swear like a sailor myself, so it would be hypocritical to ding somebody else for doing it. Posted by: Hesiod at June 5, 2003 07:29 AM | PERMALINKDemetrios, There is a very wide expanse between our arguments, is there not? You are upset that the conservatives come out in force when there is a hot issue. I was arguing that the liberals come out with smears. Changing the subject to the Clintons can be a red herring, but it is not an ad hominem. There are some seriously nasty people that post on comment boards. Even your argument comes down to another ad hominem. The "man the barricades" thingy. We are not a bunch of robots marching to a beat. We are resolved in our conviction, we are not "acolytes." You just had to prove my point by throwing that in there. You may want to label everyone that disagrees with you, but I won't. The fact that people were lining up to "tame the liberals," does not show that they were somehow abusive towards you. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 07:30 AM | PERMALINKUnderstood the Volokh's while they were on blogspot--that blogger comment software sucks Unless I have seriously missed something, there _is_ no "blogger comment software"; that is, Blogger itself doesn't have a comments function. There are a variety of third-party services that can be used with Blogger. IIRC, all the ones available for Blogspot blogs are remotely hosted, which can create problems. Posted by: Kate Nepveu at June 5, 2003 07:30 AM | PERMALINKHesiod, Speaking as someone that was banned from your site very quickly, I think your lying. It takes practically nothing to get banned from you site. A dissenting viewpoint seemed to accomplish that for me. Besides, when your posts are based on nothing but dishonest lies, (see the Wolfowitz post below) it seems ironic that you come here trying to be the champion of honesty, with your pet peeves and all. Thank you again Kevin for at least being an honest liberal. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 07:36 AM | PERMALINKSee...that's exactly why you got banned, Survivor. You're lying, again. Incidentally, I removed all the ID blocks from my comments section over two months ago. Posted by: Hesiod at June 5, 2003 07:52 AM | PERMALINKIt's official. Hesoid is delusional. Jay Caruso bans people that don't agree with him?!?! He invited someone to join his blog that doesn't agree with him!!! In addition, off the top of my head, Rea, Sofla, Ringo, DaveB, Jane herself and many others don't agree with him and haven't been banned. And Bill Quick has Tony Foresta, who never agrees with him but continues posting. It's nice to see that Hesoid pays the same attention to facts on others peoples blogs that he does on his own. Posted by: greg at June 5, 2003 07:54 AM | PERMALINKDemetrios seems to regard intellectual debate as suspect and want liberal sites free of conflicting opinion - especially those that challenge unsupported assumptions.(Kind of like a lot of our universities these days.) Well you can think that if you wish but in my opinion the result is intellectual flabbiness - Kevin and Atrios are far more vigorous bloggers than most because they do not shy from taking on intelligent criticism and occasionally, perhaps moderating their original positions in light of new information or argument. Blind ideologues have boring sites. Posted by: mark safranski at June 5, 2003 07:54 AM | PERMALINKThe fact that people were lining up to "tame the liberals," does not show that they were somehow abusive towards you. No but the fact that they were abusive does. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 08:04 AM | PERMALINKSurvivor, I've got a couple things to add to what you've said. First, as someone who tries his best to be what you call an "honest liberal" (way to shape the naming conventions to your argument, by the way), you're painting Hesiod with an awfully wide brush. He posted one story from a legit newspaper...lots of bloggers posted it. It's not posting a blatant lie. And there's some argument that the english to german translation was made incorrectly, and the Guardian got it right (I forget where I saw this discussion, but it was interesting). I've yet to find an active liberal site without any conservative commentors, and for the most part, they get treated fairly well (even on Atrios). There aren't many sites that can match the treatment you'd see on FreeRepublic or LGF (to be fair, I actually had a decent discussion on FR about job protection, free trade, unemployment pay, and unionizing, but it took freepers losing their jobs in this economy to get it, and I know at least one poster who was banned for posting a point similar to mine (but not posed in the most diplomatic language possible, which I went out of my way to do). Basically, Survivor, your arguments are framed in such a way that they imply a problem only on the left. I've never visited DU, so I can't comment on them (other than that I' ve yet to hear anything good about them), but I've waded into the fray at FR, and I've checked out LGF...and those guys make the posters on Hesiod or Atrios look pretty tame, for the most part. And there's not much else on that side to go by, altho I think the Volokh crew would have a very reasonable comment section, if they ever put one up. Maybe that's a better question. Why is it so hard to find reasonable discussion in righty blog comments? Or am I missing something? By the way, thank you for adding the link, Kevin. Posted by: JoeF at June 5, 2003 08:04 AM | PERMALINKThere are some seriously nasty people that post on comment boards. You forgot to add, 'And they're all on the left.' Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 08:04 AM | PERMALINKYou are upset that the conservatives come out in force when there is a hot issue. I was arguing that the liberals come out with smears. I can talk about the smears that conservative posters have directed at me and others, if you want. That wasn't the topic. Seriously, do you really believe that ad hominems and smears are the sole province of the left? I have to ask again: seriously? From my experience, getting down and dirty with a right-winger is a mistake. I'm never willing to go as low. I've debated conservatives in very public email forums, and I always know when I'm winning on substance, because the attacks on me get more and more personal and vicious in nature. I tend to hold back now, in such forums, because the intimidation factor is just too great. Demetrios seems to regard intellectual debate as suspect and want liberal sites free of conflicting opinion Wrong. Here's the kind of thing I'm talking about. How many times do liberal bloggers have to debunk the 'JFK supports Bush's tax cuts!' canard? I think Navy Davy has posted that thing like five times on Kos. It's just a tactical distraction. It gets debunked on every single liberal blog multiple times, every single time Bush wants a tax cut. Is that the standard of intellectual debate you're talking about? When you push a canard again and again, it kind of loses its status as an 'unchallenged assumption'. Truth is, I don't care if you guys post on the lefty blogs. I enjoy the action. But I think it's interesting that you feel the need to do it. I think you're the ones who are afraid of the left's ideas, not the other way around. You know that people have a strong affinity for many liberal ideas, and it's important to you to tear them down. And you feel compelled to 'correct' the liberals, on an ongoing basis, as part of an effort to discredit us. Also, let me add that, I used to be much less partisan. I leaned left, but I felt that the country benefitted from a balance between right and left. I thought it would be bad for either side to gain too much power. Then y'all gained too much power. You got out of control when you impeached Clinton. You took it too far; and you've gotten away from the best conservative ideas of less government, local control, and individual liberties. I like those ideas. I just don't see many conservative practicioners of them anymore. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 08:29 AM | PERMALINKFirst, let me address Hesiod. I have a lot of responses and little time today, so let me try to get to what I can. Hesiod, The point of an ID filter is normally to prevent abuse, not to make decisions about the honesty of the message board users an ban them accordingly. Your pet peeve may be people that don't support the same paradigm of truth that you do, but one of mine is censorship. The fact that you ban people based on how "truthful" you consider them to be only shows how afraid of dissent you really are. People here may not think I am speaking what they consider truth, but, like JoeF above, they state a counter argument instead of flaming me or banning me from the site. JoeF, Very good point. It was well made and avoided being abusive. I stand corrected. I did frame it in a way that implies it only happens on the left. I will now do my best to try to avoid doing that. Instead, I will try to prove the point that it happens disproportionately more on the left. Take Hesiod for example. He bans people that "lie" from posting on his site. You called me on something that, although not a lie, was framed in a misleading way, and you won a point. You did it without swearing, or using cheap ad hominems. He allows you to abuse people on his site. From what I have seen of his comments board, preventing people from abusing dissenters would deprive the majority of his posters of their argument. I can take a little BushCo(tm) stuff. A little slander, provided the tounge is in the cheek, is not going to hurt anyone's feelings here. I did it myself yesterday by teasing someone about trusting Sadaam's word of honor over Bush's. But, none of this compares to the outright abuse that comes out of Counterspin. I read LGF's posts, but I never go anywhere near the comments. The posts are bad enough. I can only imagine what the comments look like. It seems apples and oranges to compare a pundit to a zealot. But it is another fair point. Demetrios, you never specifically said they abused you. That fact should have been spelled out, in detail, for your post to have been granted the full consideration it would have deserved. Since we are not familiar with this board, unlike Hesiod's, we can't decide how abusive it got without you telling us. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 08:30 AM | PERMALINKwe can't decide how abusive it got without you telling us But we're supposed to take it on faith when you say it? And seriously, are you really operating under the assumption that the left is worse than the right on smears and ad hominems? The topic of the thread was not 'Who's more abusive?' but 'Why do liberal blogs get more comments?' I did it myself yesterday by teasing someone about trusting Sadaam's word of honor over Bush's. Do you believe that this kind of thing from your side is rare? Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 08:37 AM | PERMALINKDemetrios, what do you mean that wasn't the topic? "I can talk about the smears that conservative posters have directed at me and others, if you want. That wasn't the topic." From the original post: "I have posted at the comments section at atrios' blog and found them to be fairly abusive and extremely biased." [Your quoting Greg here] "Do the conservative posters really think that this experience is exceptional? That this only happens to conservatives who post on liberal sites?" [Your response] And then you launched into your story about the local board. You never supported your argument by citing instances of abuse, and then, deny that abuse was ever the topic. ?!?! HUH ?!?! Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 08:39 AM | PERMALINKI don't have comments because it's all I can do to keep up with posting and I haven't found commenting software I like. Haloscan and YACCS closed out their enrollments around the time I started my blog. If I move to Movable Type I'll probably start them up. Posted by: Randy Paul at June 5, 2003 08:41 AM | PERMALINKYou responded to Greg's post where he asserted that it was abuse that discouraged right wing bloggers from creating a message board that get filled with bile spewed from, you guessed it, liberals. Then you deny that abusive posters were even mentioned. Kevin asked for explanations, Greg gave him one. You disagreed and ffailed to make an argument that would have supported your viewpoint, i.e. that right-wingers spew bile too. They do spew bile. I know that it comes from both sides, but I believe it comes from the left in a disporportionate amount. I think it is a wide margin too. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 08:46 AM | PERMALINKST, when I first mentioned the local conservative board, I didn't talk about abuse. I said that my presence there drew out the conservative posters; the anecdote was not meant to be related to Greg's quote about how poorly he he feels he is used by the liberals. Your statement And then you launched into your story about the local board. isn't really accurate; I'd think that the several diverging paragraphs between the quote and the anecdote would make that clear. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 08:46 AM | PERMALINKI think the answer might fall along these lines: The top righty bloggers are quite smart and articulate, and tend to fall along the libertarian axis more than the socially repressive bigoted one, mostly because the libertarian critique is legit while the radical 'kill the gays' one doesn't spur so much interesting thought. But since both groups support the GOP, popular righty bloggers inevitably would attract right-wing crazies to their boards. Now, why don't lefties suffer from this? Well, they do, but liberal crazies are already continually exposed and vilified by the media. And our crazies aren't embarrassing Medieval hate-mongers. They are more along the lines of stupid misguided idealistic fools, easy to ignore or placate and less likely to start immense and dull flame wars (though that's not always true - just ignite a 'was Nader blah blah' one if you want to see leftie immolation). So leftie comment boards are relatively interesting places, while righties quickly devolve into hero-worship or hate, because that's ultimately the only things the disparate elements of the GOP can agree on. Posted by: MattS at June 5, 2003 08:50 AM | PERMALINKInteresting how this issue, as with anything else, is because one side is on the side of angels, and the opposition is coddling with lucifer. How about this novel concept: People who want comments HAVE comments & people who don't, do not? Some folks may want their blog to be simply that - a web log. Others may want it to inspire debate. Others may want it to be a blog/bulletin board. Or, maybe, it could be like this site (which has survived scrutiny) which did not allow comments until moving over to MT. But, as always, there must be some sort of sinister reason why people w/o them "really" are scared of democracy/truth/dissent. Y'know, once I see that stuff it pretty much automatically tattoos a "I'm a hyperpartisan whose debate is nothing but a waste of time" mark right on the cyber-foreheads of anyone who puts forth such bilge. Jeez, some of us with comments have to ignore them from time to time because of the little things that go on like a job or a family or....life (some have them, I've heard). Goodness, folks, they're just opinions - there's no genetic defect that causes someone who is pro/anti something to be more "apt" at behavior because of their choice on some public policy. Posted by: Ricky at June 5, 2003 09:16 AM | PERMALINKI hate to use what will sound like a moral-equivalance argument, but I have seen some pretty nasty commenting from both sides. I suspect that we tend to gloss over or discount some of the more brutish tactics from our own side, while taking umbrage to the ugly tactics from our opponents. (Though honestly I am happier to see a whack job on the side of my opponents than someone who is 'on my side' but argues like an idiot.) I'm not sure if there is any other explanation for the 'top conservative sites' not having comments other than bandwidth. But if there is, it is probably akin to SDB's reasoning: he would love to have cross-blog discussion because it is easily managed, but at some point managing a vast number of comments distracts from the rest of what you are trying to do. Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at June 5, 2003 09:17 AM | PERMALINKThey do spew bile. I know that it comes from both sides, but I believe it comes from the left in a disporportionate amount. I think it is a wide margin too. haha, yeah, sure it is. You haven't been around the "blogosphere" much, have you? The most vile adhoms I've ever seen were directed against regular commenters at Eschaton, so I presume they weren't coming from liberal Dems, and it was frequently some nasty, bigoted homophobic crap. The one right of center blogger that I would give credit to for
accepting dissenting viewpoints is Jay Caruso. I'll throw in adhoms and
four letter words, but only because it seems that he and other posters
do it too, and it helps me to vent. I mean, it is called the "rant". I
would hope that regular posters know that I don't have anything
personal against them, because I don't really even know them. A nice
civilized debate is good, but the "colorful" stuff can be a lot more
entertaining. MattS,that little comment about stupid misguided idealistic fools very nearly got me going. Then I spotted the trap. Not quite as stupid as usual, I suppose. Well, on second thought, yes I am. You brought up Nader. In my experience both sides of that issue are apt to start stupid idealistic flame wars. One would think that only the Naderites would (being kinda the definition of a stupid idealist, which I can say as a Nader voter, but in a safely Gore state). But the Nader-haters seem about as prone to start unfair and pointless arguments as the Nader-lovers. Which might illustrate your point. Hell, I'm doing my best to illustrate it here. Posted by: Donald Johnson at June 5, 2003 09:36 AM | PERMALINKI just wanted to run back in here and make a quick point. I STILL think that there is a disporortionate amount of vitriole coming from the left, but I don't think it is WHO they are as much as Where they are. I think it is a function of the minority party to band together and throw bombs. Repubs did it as far as Monica, and more. I think it is a function of frustration more than it is of the identity, left vs. right. No one wants to post to a site just to say, "Don't you think things are going swimmingly?" They want to vent, just like Ringo. Maybe, when (not if) the Repubs are back in the minority, we will have to get our slingshots. It's just not sportsmanlike at the moment. Make sense? Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 09:39 AM | PERMALINKMake sense? Not really. I find that conservatives tend to classify legitimate criticism of Bush or Republicans as 'vitriole'. So when I hear you say there is a disporortionate amount of vitriole coming from the left, I think you really mean, there is some vitriole, and some legitimate criticism, and you can't or don't want to tell them apart. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 09:51 AM | PERMALINKHesiod, I have to defend Jay Caruso a little. I comment regularly on his blog, I agree with him on almost nothing except baseball, and sometimes not even that, and he has always treated me courteously on the whole. I've never seen him ban anyone. I have seen him reprove another poster for making what was arguably a homophobic comment to me. Frankly, I like Jay, despite our differences. And I like a good argument, which is of course a prime reason for posting stuff on the internet. I want smart conservative types to respond to the stuff I post, and give me a good fight before I completely refute their nonsense . . . :) Posted by: rea at June 5, 2003 09:54 AM | PERMALINKDang. This was a tad more of a debate than I expected. Mostly I was frustrated that I couldn't offer a comment on a post made by Orin Kerr over at Volokh. Hesiod is one of the farthest left blogs. LGF is one of the farthest right blogs. Comparing the two, I'd say two things. First, LGF takes much more of an extremist position than Hesiod...LGF is, perhaps blindly loyal is the best term, whereas Hesiod is just a really angry liberal. And second, the comments seem to follow that trend..Hesiod's comments can be pretty harsh, but LGF's can be downright crazy. So, perhaps the level of debate in the comments coresponds with the general position of the blog...LGF has some of the farthest out there rightys, Kevin and Matt get (generally) level-headed debate, Atrios gets a few trolls and a few reactionary leftists, and Hesiod gets a bit more. I can completely understand why Instapundit doesn't have comments (altho, as a liberal who'd like to respond to some of his points, it makes it hard to read him), and Den Beste has a good reason, too. But somewhat smaller sites like Volokh (which also has the benefit of being a group blog, which seems to me like it'd be easier for the various posters to keep up on their own comments, without worrying about all the posts) would be prime sites for commenting. Hopefully they'll add it soon. Posted by: JoeF at June 5, 2003 09:54 AM | PERMALINKAlso, as far as this goes: Changing the subject to the Clintons can be a red herring, but it is not an ad hominem. How often is the subject changed to Clinton without an ad hominem against Clinton (either Clinton)? More often than not, it's both a red herring and an ad hominem. And the ad hominem is often then extended to the debate opponent. For example, in the extreme, 'Clinton is a rapist and you're a rapist-lover'. If I feel it's been too long since I was last called a 'socialist,' a 'communist', a 'Saddamite', a 'coddler of vicious dictators', a 'traitor', a 'knee-jerk America-hater', etc, then I know what to do. I write I'm not sure if I like the idea behind that tax cut and post it to a political discussion board. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 10:03 AM | PERMALINKHesiod, if Jay banned vigorous dissenters from his blog, I'd be history. Even in the thread you commented in yesterday, you can see that Jay and I (among others) have distinctly opposing views. Posted by: Jane Finch at June 5, 2003 10:16 AM | PERMALINK"How many times do liberal bloggers have to debunk the 'JFK supports Bush's tax cuts!' canard?" Beats me because this is an economic question not just partisan politics. There's a lot of documentation regarding the internal debate within the Kennedy administration regarding tax cuts. Galbraith was pretty specific in his political analysis as to why to spend more instead of cutting taxes as a Keynesian stimulus but he hardly denied at the time that tax-cuts would be stimulating to the economy. There are times and types of tax-cuts that provide stimulus and types that won't and times when cutting taxes isn't the most effcient solution because marginal rates aren't the limiting factor. Kennedy however faced a tax code with very steep progressivity at the time and his attacks on the Eisenhower economic record indicated a need for action by the incoming administration. Posted by: mark safranski at June 5, 2003 10:23 AM | PERMALINKA - hesiod is being dishonest (surprise) Let's not waste any more time on such nonsense, eh? Posted by: Ricky at June 5, 2003 10:23 AM | PERMALINKFrom the original post: "the difference in comment friendliness is indeed remarkably clear cut. I wonder what accounts for this, or if it's just some weird coincidence? I would say (c), neither of the above. As a general rule, I would guess (and a lot of comments here seem to support it) that adding a comments section increases the popularity of a blog. Thus, there is an obvious selection bias - one would expect the most popular blogs, right or left, to have comments. Since the CalPundit recently added comments, has his traffic gone up (on a post war adjusted basis, since some sites are showing less traffic)? Offsetting this is the history of the blogosphere. As I recall, the early blogosphere was dominated by rightys, some of whom are now so big that a further boost to their popularity would represent coals to Newcastle. I suspect that if Glenn R. started a blog today, it would be pretty good. However, I would be shocked if it broke out of the pack to number one, and I bet he would have a comments section. So, my position is that any attempt to draw some deeper conclusion from this observation on comment-friendliness, such as rightys are too locked into their pack mentality, or lefties are too rude, is not going to be supportable by the evidence at hand. The other question is, who said that popularity is the measure of a blog's success? Someone like Marshall, or Sully, or Drezner, wants an outlet for their views, not a forum for yours. Or, as Don Imus of Imus in the Morning says, let's divide this up sensibly - I'll talk, and you can just shut up and listen. Posted by: Tom Maguire at June 5, 2003 10:26 AM | PERMALINKOkay, I stuck up for a righty blog, but I'll do no such thing for
that piece of excrement on the information superhighway, LGF. It's
basically an anti-Muslim hate site, period. They mock Islam as "the
religion of peace", essentially lumping all Muslims in with terrorists. Demetrios, Maybe vitriol is a loaded term. I have already stated that there is an amount of abuse coming from both sides. There is also an amount of valid criticism that comes from both sides. I was trying to answer kevin's question. IMHO, hosting dissent is a tactic of the minority party. One of the posters here stated that there is a large amount of hero-worship on right-wing blogs, but the same is true for the left. There is a difference in dissent. If I was a right-wing blogger, I would be faced with a choice of hosting hero-worship comes at the price of hosting dissent. Considering that hero-worship can only take up so much space, (considering my meager abilities) the larger part of my space wuld go to hosting dissent. If I am a left leaning blogger, dissent would be less the norm, (form the limited experiences I have had here and at Counterspin.) Repubs are in the majority, and there is little for them to complain about. There must be some old adage that illustrates that people speak up when they are frustrated more than when they are satisfied or complacent. I think it is a choice that right blogs make not to give space for people to complain. Not quite the same as censorship, not exactly fair and open debate. Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 10:29 AM | PERMALINK"The fact that you ban people based on how "truthful" you consider them to be only shows how afraid of dissent you really are. People here may not think I am speaking what they consider truth, but, like JoeF above, they state a counter argument instead of flaming me or banning me from the site." No. I don't ban people who disagree with me. I ban people who are objectively proven liars. For example, if I post something along the lines of the followiong: "2+2=4," and some shmo comes on my comments and says "That hesiod is a moron because he just said 2+2=6!" Then I give them a chance to retract that bald-faced lie or be banned. Pretty simple. I don't ban people for coming on my blog and saying stuff like "George W. Bush is the greatest President ever," even tnough that is obviously untrue. It is a matter of that person's opinion, as ridiculous as that may be. In any event, I haven't "banned" anyone in months and have actually removed all the blocks from my ID filter. Anyone is free to post whatever they want in my comments. So long as they don't slander people. That's where I draw the line. Sorry if it disrupts your modus operandi. Posted by: Hesiod at June 5, 2003 10:40 AM | PERMALINKTho I've been beaten to the punch by my fellow commenters, I'd definitely agree that CalP is far and away the most fairminded and unvitriolic lefty site I've across. I'll second the notion that not too much should be made of which sites enable comments. I will say that with the apparent exceptions of LGF and FR, libs are far more energetic these days so far as actually posting comments. My guy Ruffini got linked by Instapundit and a number of libblogs on a good, provocative post and his comments went from 0-5 to close to 100, most of which, I have to say were pretty inane lefties. Aside from being out of power, I think its only fair to point out that lefties tend to personalize their politics to a degree rarely approached by righties. My explanation, speaking as a fairly secular conservative, is that righties have their church and family to fall back on. Lefties don't. Posted by: Lloyd at June 5, 2003 11:01 AM | PERMALINKKennedy however faced a tax code with very steep progressivity at the time Thanks, mark, for showing that the canard is self-debunking. 'JFK supports the Bush tax cuts!' we hardly knew ye. Actually, we know ye all too well, and the Republicans have promised a Bush tax cut a year, so ye'll be back, no doubt. Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 11:04 AM | PERMALINKits only fair to point out that lefties tend to personalize their politics to a degree rarely approached by righties Unbelievable. I hope Kevin has the Internet Archive preserving this thread for posterity, when intelligent beings will ask, 'What were those early 21st Century jokers thinking?' Posted by: Demetrios at June 5, 2003 11:09 AM | PERMALINKI think its only fair to point out that lefties tend to personalize their politics to a degree rarely approached by righties. My explanation, speaking as a fairly secular conservative, is that righties have their church and family to fall back on. Lefties don't. Can't...type..laughing too hard...BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh no, Republicans didn't personalize things at all during the '90's, and they don't do it now. Right. Hesiod, you're such a lying little turd. I banned you some time ago because you kept coming around, calling me a liar which I don't have to tolerate. I have also banned a few people who have gone there to post particularly nasty crap under fake names. Other than that, I haven't banned anybody. Anybody that reads my blog will see that there are more people with OPPOSING views in my comments section than those who support what I write. Posted by: Jay Caruso at June 5, 2003 01:15 PM | PERMALINKJust for that Jay, I am going to come check out your blog. Anyone who thinks Hesiod is a lying turd can't be all that bad! And Hesiod, my problem with you is all the times you've tried to say that 2+2=6, you lying turd! Posted by: Survivor Type at June 5, 2003 01:21 PM | PERMALINKLloyd, the church I regularly attended before moving has a mixture of lefties, righties and centrists. I'm a lefty, so there must be some other reason other than lack of religious belief for the fact that I get outraged over certain issues. Another lefty friend of mine may or may not frequent blogs, but he'll be happy to tell you about the right wing conspiracy to topple Clinton. (I used to think he overstated things a bit.) As for rightwingers not personalizing things--well, I guess we can chalk this up to another example of how the Quantum many-worlds hypothesis is being confirmed on the web every day. In my universe, I can point to people I know (nevermind the web) who go ballistic when faced with a leftwing opinion. Posted by: Donald Johnson at June 5, 2003 01:32 PM | PERMALINKDonald, do I have to point out that I was speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions to any rules. But unless you can convince me that lefties are, in general, more church and family oriented, or that you all have some other institution besides govmt that rocks your boat, my point still stands. Posted by: Lloyd at June 6, 2003 04:36 PM | PERMALINKLloyd, What are you talking about? 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