June 02, 2003
KIDS....At dinner with friends last night, the conversation
turned to Those Kids These Days. We actually all agreed that although
Those Kids are different than we were, they're pretty much OK.
One observation was that teenagers of our acquaintance seem to be
more comfortable around adults than we were (for purposes of comparsion,
"we" was a bunch of folks in our 40s). Has anybody else noticed that?
Or is it just us?
Posted by Kevin Drum at June 2, 2003 02:57 PM
I think the kids are alright, also.
But maybe I'm slipping into old fogie-ism, but one thing I see here
in my nice little middle class suburb is this: kids don't work like we
Only once in 10 years has a kid come around with a snow shovel to make a
buck on a snow day. They drive better cars then most adults. I've never
seen a kid either take out the trash or cutting the lawn, yet they wear
some pretty nice clothes and shoes.
There, I've done it...made myseld 'officially' old.
Actually, I think you have it backwards. It's "we" who are more
comfortable with "those kids." Our parents came of age in the
40's/50's. The cultural divide between them and us was enormous, and a
lot of adults couldn't come to grips with it. But if you look at the
situation today, a lot of 60's/70's culture is still around - recycled,
but recognizable as a part of youth culture today. Sure, there's new
stuff, but since our environment taught us to expect (and embrace)
change, there is very little in teenage culture that feels alien or
Well, since kids don't generally get to decide what kind of car they
drive, whether they shovel driveways, etc., maybe it's the parents you
should be complaining about. More likely they're all making more money
doing web design and stuff, like my little brother does.
I agree that teenagers today seem a lot more comfortable around
adults. I think it is because adults in the 60's freaked out when it
came to the subject of sex or drugs, so the topics were best avoided.
Maybe it is also why there was more emphasis on sports 30 years ago,
because it was one of the few safe topics where teenagers and their
parents could discuss something honestly without being grounded for the
Kids think of themselves much less as "kids" anymore than ever
before, I think. Being more comfortable around adults is one aspect of
We market maturity and sophistication to children so that little 10
year old girls dress and accessories as if they were women (that's new
in the last 10 years or so). "Independence" is also a huge sell to kids,
so 13 year olds really need a cell phone. All of this massive,
wall-to-wall saturation marketing to children is quite new.
To adults, on the other hand, we market youth, and our society, more
than ever, worships youth. Not just in base terms of boob jobs and eye
lifts, "youth" is a quality that pretty much every product is supposed
to foster or appeal to.
So, I think as far as interactions go, there might be a sort of
closing of the gap- adults more eager to act young, kids more eager to
For the kids I think it's terrible. When I was a kid, which wasn't
too long ago, well.. how do I put this delicately... Let me just say
that the sexualization of teens has got me really disturbed, and it
wasn't like this just 10, 20 years ago. Britney Spears at 16 as every
hetero guy's sexual fantasy is not right. Hell, even Hillary Duff's
ascent is creepy. It's totally driven by her looks. And while her looks
would be described by Disney as "fun" and "cute", really she looks like a
well-endowed 20 year old woman jumping up and down for a billboard
I dunno, I think back to my junior high and high school days and I
can't remember the girls dressing like girls dress now. I sound like
such an old fogey, but it's creepy when I'll innocently, but very
guy-like, check out a girl dressed to, um, impress, with lots of
cleavage and tight tiny skirt or shorts, and realize she can't be more
than 13. I honestly don't think it's a product of my age; that is, the
older I get the younger I likes 'em, or something creepy like that. It
just seems that maturity and independence has been marketed to girls as
sexual assertion. That is, it is mature and independent to "flaunt it".
Britney Spears was defended, at 16 (or was it 17), in that "hit me baby"
video on those grounds- that she was just asserting her independence by
being so sexy and sexually suggestive. It seems any more that is the de
facto manner in which a yound girl asserts herself, and it's sad.
So- long thought process later- maybe that's part of it.
I'm 18 and I can remember one evening back in the mid 90s when my
dad, rather harshly, gave me the old "in my days children (not kids)
wouldn't speak to adults unless spoken to" talk. I remember looking at
him totally aghast.
There has been a greater "loosening" of the culture betwen now and
the mid 50's - early 60's. The line of demarcation between childhood
and adulthood has also clearly been erased, perhaps to the point of
But as to kids not working as hard, I say bah. Read David Brook's
"The Organization Kid" to see evidence of the real score. Or last
week's copy of Newsweek, about the top public high schools. In response
to jdw, well, families probably move around more today, and I think
there is probably a small but persistant fear of neighbors today that
there wasn't back "in the day" (as in, oh gosh is Mr. Reynolds down the
street a child abuser/rapist/molestor). In any event, the idea of
neighborhood "solidarity" as such has almost certainly dissapaited. How
many times a week did your parent's have people from the block over for
dinner? How many times have you (not you as in jdw but everyone here).
In any event, parents are probably more aware of that scenario, which
is reflected on their kids. Plus, most kids who want to work can do so
fairly regulaly for a standard wage, in a way that "odd jobs" can't
Kevin--- it seems likely to me that you've just got a biased sample.
The kids that an old fogey like you is most likely to encounter are
kids who hang around with adults more than other kids. Such kids will
be more comfortable around adults than other kids. The awkward, sulky
teens still exist; they just avoid you.
Even aside from the sexualization issue, with which I agree, today's
kids are on the whole more "adult" than I was at a comparable age. I
think this is largely due to the fact that, when I was growing up (I'm
37) it was "normal" for a kid to have two parents, both of whom were
still married and living in the same household, and a mother who stayed
at home with the kids. Now, that is distinctly abnormal. Kids today
essentially raise themselves and, when the single parent is home, they
wind up having a much more adult relationship with their parents.
I don't have any studies to back any of that up, and I'm sure there
is regional as well as temporal variation in these phenomena. But
that's what I'm seeing, anyway.
I read an article in Rolling Stone this month about a group of
upper-middle-class teens at a party; one of them got punched and fell to
the ground and hit his head. Basically, the other kids milled around
while he foamed at the mouth and slowly slipped into a coma. They tried
to drag his body outside to a car--the kid whose house it was kept
saying, "don't say it happened here." They dropped him on his head,
again, twice, while they were carrying him.
They all had cell phones; not one of them called 911.
When asked, none of them expressed particular remorse. They all said
the same thing: we were trying to cover our asses; anybody would have
done the same thing.
Why do I bring this up? Because I see a certain element of... what's
the word?... nihilism in teen culture today. Self-absorption.
Sociopathy, almost. They do not feel connected to other people, or
responsible to other people, or indebted to other people.
This makes them, among other things, fearless around adults.
I'm sure it's only a part of the picture, but I see it in the news,
in TV shows, movies, music... all of youth culture. Jackass, anyone?
There's a malady there--I don't pretend to be able to describe it
very well, and nobody else has either, but I'm not so sanguine that
we've done right by our kids. ("Our kids"... jesus... I'm only 31...)
Adding to what Elissa Lowe said: in 1996, when the leading edge of
the baby boom turned 50, American Demographics did a survey of
50-year-olds and 70-year-olds. The most interesting difference was in
the two groups' response to: "Have you changed your mind about any
really important issue since were 20 years old?" 70% of 50-year-olds
said yes, as opposed to only 30% of the 70-year-olds. (Even though
they'd had an extra 20 years to think things over.)
The "greatest generation" had many strengths, but later generations have
been more open-minded. Not as many of us hang on to the ways of 1960 or
1970 as fiercely as our parents clung to the pre-WWII world.
Tim: remember Annette Funicello?
Nate: nah, these are just the kids of my friends. Obviously this is
all anecdotal, but the sample isn't biased in that particular way.
The whole sexualization thing -- I really don't know about that. I
mean, I certainly know what everyone is talking about, and teenage
clothing strikes me the same way. But all the kids I know dress that
way, even the very proper, very hardworking types. It's just the style.
In the 60s, parents genuinely thought long hair was a sign of
degeneracy. It's easy to laugh at that now, but I wonder if our
response to teen dressing habits isn't the same thing all over again.
I'm with Realish in my sense that the kids are less than all right. I can't claim to know
a lot of bad kids, but I suspect Kevin can't either -- we both probably
mix with a pretty well-educated, upper-middle-class crowd. We aren't
seeing the "at risk kids," in other words.
Here's my best evidence for a societal breakdown afflicting the kids
we don't know: do a brief porn surf and check out how many 19-20 year
old girls -- hot girls, not strung-out heroin addicts -- are
willing to utterly degrade themselves for little or no money. My sense
is -- I mean, my friends tell me that there are thousands of such girls
out there, who represent the tip of a really morally debased iceberg.
You can tell me that screwing strangers on camera is a valid lifestyle
choice, and you may be right, but I'll bet that it's also as good a
predictor of downward socioeconomic mobility as any.
It's probably not useful to generalize "the kids" as a whole. I
would agree though that kids do seem to grow up faster in many ways
(some sexually, some are already so busy they risk burnout). Is it
socially acceptable for kids to just play outside, unorganized, and make
up their own games? How about daydream? Many seem too programmed.
Realish, your story about the kids at the party reminded me of that
story of the teenagers who covered up that murder (I think in the 80s),
where they hid the body by a stream. And what was that famous story
from the 60s of the woman being murdered, and nobody responded? Is that
really indicative of a larger trend?
Has anyone ever checked out the work of Neil Howe and William
Strauss? They wrote "The Fourth Turning", and also have a book called
"Millennials Rising" http://www.millennialsrising.com/
They liken this generation of kids to the so-called "Greatest
Generation" of WWII GIs. So they're really positive about the current
generation, in general.
From the website:
"Now, in Millennials Rising, the authors show how today's teens are
recasting the image of youth from downbeat and alienated to upbeat and
engaged. The authors also show how Millennials are held to higher
standards than adults apply to themselves … how they're a lot less
violent, vulgar, and sexually charged than the teen culture older people
are producing for them … how, over the next decade, they’ll entirely
recast what it means to be young … and how, in time, they could emerge
as the next great generation."
I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is that point of view out there.
Has anyone from the left side of things read "The Fourth Turning"? I
haven't read the book, but I have a basic understanding of the theory
(We're supposed to be entering a "Crisis", or a fourth turning soon, if
we are not already in one). Has anyone blogged about it?
I don't know. This 36-year-old guy was in the news recently. He
planted all these bombs a few years ago and just got caught. Also,
these other people his age were asked about how they felt about it and
one person said, "He was a man who stood for what he believed in. If he
came to my door, I would've given him food and never said a word."
I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems like 30-somethings
are a little... off in some way. I guess every generation has its
Realish - I know what you're trying to describe...Young Republicans.
Charlie Murtaugh -- are you really buying the idea that those 19-20
old girls are typical of a generation? Aren't they just strippers and
porno actresses, such as we've had for ages? And how many, really, are
there, out of a cohort of millions?
Haha, now there's a screwed up bunch that could do with some analysing :)
"Well, since kids don't generally get to decide what kind of car they
drive, whether they shovel driveways, etc., maybe it's the parents you
should be complaining about. More likely they're all making more money
doing web design and stuff, like my little brother does."
True enough that the parents probably have something to do with it,
but it doesn't change what I see. Sure, maybe I don't see kids coming
around to cut grass or shovel snow because they make money designing
websites...but c'mon, that can't be all kids. We don't even have paper
boys or girls here...those are all delivered by seniors. Like I said, I
haven't seen a kid pulling a garbage can down a driveway or cutting
their OWN family's lawns let alone for money doing other houses. (Here's
a quaint notion,in our house it was expected, not an 'allowance'thing)
In my opinion, the kids get too much and you can't deny the
overwhelming materialism: the cars, the computers, the cell phones, the
expensive clothes, all that crap. There's simply no comparison in my
neighborhood to the youth of 30 years ago. Maybe the parents are part at
fault, and maybe if they demanded that the kids do these things they
would, but the youth in my neighborhood in this regard are very
different then my teeage and young adult years.
Take a look at a HS parking lot. The student lot looks better then
the teacher's. Something is screwy in that regard, but I think in
general the kids are ok. I think they study as hard(actually the school
year is longer), and I don't think they do more drugs or have more sex
then we did or are more violent. But there has been a visable change to
me in work and in the amount of material wealth held by youngsters.
jdw - I understan exactly what you are saying. I think it is this
whole "me me me" culture that has flourished. I've been out of college
for four years now...I went to a very nice liberal arts college (I was
the poster child for financial aid.) I drove a K car, seriously. The
entire parking lot of my building was packed with every luxery car you
could name...BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Acura NSX, and tons of SUV's. And
these weren't the parent's cars. They were for the kids. Surprisingly,
most of my friends in college had no idea what it meant to work for
something. I actually got into an argument with a friend's
girlfriend...she couldn't understand why I was a liberal. She told me
she knew what work was...I mean, she actually had, HAD to mow her
parents lawn before they bought her a brand new SUV...you don't need to
tell her about working hard.
I've noticed it a lot...a lot of peope feel entitled. They must not be denied.
I think we have to take into consideration the increased expectations
that society (particularly colleges and employers) have of today's
kids. I'm not sure if I still count as a kid in this scenario (I'm 21
and graduating from college next week), but my high school life was
characterized by one extracurricular activity after another (usually
lasting from the end of the school day until 9 or 10 at night). In
college, I spend nearly all of my time doing school work, applying for
grad school, working at my (unpaid) internship, and other productive
things. I didn't have a job until the end of my senior year in high
school, because there simply weren't 10 hours in a week that I could
devote to something else.
I don't think my situation is all that unusual--colleges expect a
resume a mile long before they'll even think of admitting you. College
years aren't spent goofing off--grad schools and employers want
applicants with several internships under their belt before graduation.
Are some kids in my generation spoiled? Probably...but that's true
for every generation. Compared to my peers five or ten years older than
me, I think college students these days show a remarkable concern for
the outside world. Take a look at Matthew Yglesias', or Ezra K's, or
any number of other students' blogs, and rest assured that today's kids
are not spoiled sociopaths. Really.
Have you seen Larry Clark's movie Bully?
I'm a teenager, and I was going to post a defense of my generation.
But then I realised that would be too much work, and why should I spend my time informing people - whom I owe nothing
- of my opinion. I mean, I could probably be making money right now.
I've got my eye on a sweet BMW. Plus, after that hit-and-run I
shouldn't be driving my Lexus. Whatever.
Joking aside, I think the biggest difference for my generation (or at
least my peers) is a sense that if we want to succeed in life, we'd
better work fast and hard - get into a good university, get the degree
we need for a good job, and get into the workforce.
I also think there may be some truth behind accusations that my
generation is more isolated. I think some of my generation had the
loner lifestyle validated by the internet whiz-kids and the Internet,
more so than it has been previously.
This is only a part of my generation, and it doesn't mean that we don't
socialize or have friends - just that we are likely to be more
independent, and more focused on our personal goals over partying, etc.
And I think that's a good thing.
I'm not going to comment on our supposed immorality, because the
evidence presented here for that ranges from the ancedotal to the
I have to say that its not young rebels (including those who rebel
with sex) who dismay me. If you don't rebel in your late teens, when
the hell are you going to try and change the world? And if you're not
trying to change the world to what you want, how can you ever find out
Its the young fogeys who really scare me - they've always existed,
but they now seem the dominant youth culture. Hard-working, but working
only for themselves. Well educated philistines. Post-modern
Oh, and Calvinist - they are of the elect, and their privileges are a
sign of God's favour. For someone to challenge those privileges is
therefore rebellion against God. Conversely, those not so favoured must
be the damned, who it is not only impossible but positively wicked to
Rereading the above, though, I do want to make it clear that many of
us (uni class of '75) had vices (fecklessness, pomposity, a tendency to
throw the baby of hard logic out with the bathwater of a repressive
upbringing, above all shocking taste in clothes) that aren't as common
today. And attitude changes are a logical outcome of the economic
changes that my cohort are partly responsible for.
But I do regret that savage materialism and ruthless selfishness seem more common today amongst the young.
I'm with alias on Strauss and Howe and the difference in generations.
I've been hawking their ideas since I read their first book,
"Generations: The Future of America's History."
According to them, the Boomers are going to become the wise leaders
who get us through the coming secular crisis. Personally, I'm looking
forward to this.
The teens of today will be the civic-minded teamwork-oriented
builders of new institutions that embody the values of the Boomers.
And the cynical Gen-X folks will be the ones who make the connection
between the Boomers' vision and the hard work that needs to be done by
the new Millennial kids.
So yes, I think there's a big difference in teens today -- between
them and the way we were as kids and between them and Generation X (of
whom I've raised several to adulthood).
I don't think teens are a lot different - their lifestyles are
different - and it's a scientific fact that they are maturing faster.
I too, have marveled at the fact that it is nearly impossible to get a
teen to cut grass, shovel snow or babysit for money. Part of that may
be spoiling by parents but I think a bigger part is that these kids are
What has changed a lot since I was a teen ('68 to '74) is the huge
growth in organized sports for kids (outside of school) - forget Little
League: now you've got soccer, basketball, football, swimming - lacrosse
is starting to catch on. And it's all co-ed.
Then there's the traditional dance classes still mostly for girls -
still out there - but cheer leading and gymnastics are big now - again,
organized outside of school.
And let's not forget karate, tai kwan do, and then there's the
traditional scouting programs - boy and girl with the Boy Scouts of
America having recently started a co-ed program called Venturing. Church
youth groups are a big concern and then you've got the school
Kids are busy!...thekeez
I read Strauss and Howe ('Generations...'), and was very unimpressed.
I kept saying 'compare and contrast, d*mnit!' while reading that book.
They make assertions, but generally anecdotal. And they would take
very partial looks at things - for example, they looked at how gen X
yound adults were suffering from declining wages and job prospects, but
never pointed out that there were a lot of boomers suffering from the
same thing, in the post-1973 era. IIRC, wages for non college graduates
declined over that time period, no matter what generation. They also
didn't point out that declining pension/retirement plans were hammering
boomers pretty hard, also.
And in general, they never gave a 'why' to their theory; it remained a
mystical cycle, which didn't always happen (e.g., Civil War).
Here in my neck of the woods, the high schoolers have a LOT more
homework than I ever did. I think there must have been a demand for
more homework a few years back, but I think it is TOO much.
My kids take out the garbage, cut the grass, and shovel the snow, although the snowblower makes that quicker than it used to be.
And as for revealing fashions - in the mid 70's we had see through
blouses with no bras, and halter tops. So instead of peeks at the
midriff we were getting peeks at other areas!
I'm with Kevin and David Brooks--the kids are fine and while I'm not
quite as geezerish as Kevin, if anything most of the kids who are goal
oriented need to have more fun and relax.
There are a lot of young kids adrift in areas like north Saint Louis,
but there were a lot of kids adrift there and in other slums when I was
a kid or anyone else was a kid for that matter.
See, that's the thing, I'm only 30 so I don't remeber Anette Funicello except from Mickey Mouse reunions.
Only 30 and I'm freaked out by the way kids dress. Weird.
Mostly it's because I still ogle women and it disturbs me to check
out some girl who's well-endowed and laying it all out, and realize
she's a little kid.
I read a study a few years ago that the typical American diet was
slowly, after the last 30 or 40 years or so (McDonaldifcation), making
girls reach sexual maturity a lot faster now than they did in the 60s or
70s or anytime prior. Doctors with long practices were expressing
amazement at the frequency of 12 and 13 year old girls with, ahem, big
boobs and hips and full, physical sexual maturity. Young women are
actually physically maturing more quickly now.
Anyway- someone mentioned young fogeys.
Yeah, I think that's the saddest thing out there. A 21 year old kid with a mortgage, suit and tie, and voting Republican.
Meanwhile, all this "go-getter-ness" out there makes me, a dude just
holding down a job while pursuing his creative dreams, look like a
Thanks a lot, punks.
Interesting stuff, isn't it? My brother (another Kevin) started a
blog - gettinginthegame.blogspot - (which, um, hasn't been updated in a
while) and I'm pretty sure he's mentioned it a few times.
There are holes in their theory, but its the first logical
explanation I've seen for the radical change in how my own town viewed
teenagers when I was in high school compared to now.
And, no, I'm not imagining it. It took over half a decade when I was
a kid to pass the much needed bond measure to build a second high
school. To understand how badly we needed it...by the time they were
building the new school, they had to close one of the jr highs, move all
the freshmen there, and make the remaining two jr highs year round just
to house all the students. If the construction had been delayed much
longer, they were talking about putting the high school on double
sessions (half the kids at school in the morning, the other half in the
evening). We are a nice, upper middle class, suburban town with an
excellent public school system. And this was happening at the same time
the city was spending loads of money to pretty up our downtown (just
blocks away from the high school). Looking around at our trailer park
classrooms, we knew where their priorities were, and we weren't it.
Compare that to the recent bond to improve existing school (replace
the trailer park classrooms they gave us), which passed easily. While
this has much to with California changing the % needed, the mood of the
town strongly suggests that, despite a the large number of recent school
bonds, the bond to build a third high school (which will be coming up
soon) would pass with just a few tries even if it had to reach 67%.
Topic? Oh, yeah. Kevin, the kids are more comfortable around you
because a) you (and your generation) are more comfortable around them
(which in turn means that) b) their life experiences strongly suggest
that you respect and care about them and c) they know that you respect
and care about them.
I wasn't very comfortable around adults in my town, in part because
of my personality, but also in part bc I knew that most of the adults in
my town couldn't have cared less about me.
Tim, who is 30, said "Mostly it's because I still ogle women . . . "
I got news for you, Tim. It doesn't ever stop. You may get more discreet, but the sight of a beautiful woman is a joy forever!
I'm 45. When I was in 8'th grade my 18 year old college sister picked
me up at a party and complained to the effect of Gawd - the way those
girls dress, they're showing hips, ass and boobs already. Don't know if
the sex thing is that worse 32 some years later. Them barriers was no
doubt broke down by the pill and those sex crazed hippies in the 60's.
I do enjoy talking to my daughters friends (14 & 16). They are
generally highly motivated, very well educated, athletes and appear drug
and alcohol free. Little resemblance to mom and dad at that age.
I am now being barraged by the 16 year old that she has to have a
naval piercing. I feel old fashioned but say no due to possible
infection. Last night at the HS swim banquet she has a bunch of other
"good girl scholar athletes" show me their piercing to demonstrate why
she has to have one. What's a Midwestern dad to do?
Talked to my dad tonight and asked him what he thought of the kids.
He said that, basically, his parents' generation had to experience their
children being in the grip of a bizarre, incomprehensible
counterculture and vociferously attacking pretty much everything about
their parents' lives-- their religion, their values, their houses, their
food, their clothes, their music, everything. And at the same time or
slightly earlier, the situation with the Red Guards in China had
everyone kind of nervous about youth and youth movements in general. So
he feels very fortunate that he's not in the position his parents were,
and thinks kids today are pretty darn good. Or perhaps he's just
saying that to make me happy.
Well, I'm a fifteen-year-old Rolling Stones fan liberal. I detest
mowing the lawn and baby-sitting, but occasionally I have to do it to
supplement my part-time job at the library--I have to fund a Starbucks
I'd say that you really can't make blanket statements about a
generation--some kids are dumb, some kids are smart, some kids are
chaste, some kids are easy, some kids are athletic, some kids are, to
put it kindly, not. I'm sure it's the same for any group that you'd care
Then I washed my rubbery wish to gaze from this window, the
hydroxyl-rich window in the Rue dAuseil from which one might see the
slope beyond the wall, and the city methodical beneath. He was
beauteous, having fallen in a kind of convulsion which revised to his
sophisticated curly body a renal rigidity. In the center of Sarnath they
faced, covering a precise space and composed by a subdued wall. It
petitioned and twined its hand, but before I could arise and speak I
repeated in the various air the debatable melody of singing, notes still
and mid-twentieth blend with a late-summer and proteolytic
harmoniousness. You have been my recumbent friend on this planet--the
unenthusiastic soul to sense and seek for me within the fake form which
lies on this couch. The divan-like chatter of the consolidation loans
standing about spiraled him what had occurred, yet he spoke at first
nursery at his father' fate. The path, as I have intimated, sowered
along the viselike shore as one advertised inland. At his nod I insured
sixty-nine of the latter and married myself upon an slender-waisted,
dispelled gravestone superimposed by the newly post-war aperture. At
last rescued that which I had long feared. The suburbanite unsecured debt consolidation loan of granite, the door so curiously furtive, and the funeral loan consolidation above the arch, aroused in me no debt consolidation loan non homeowner
of located or demoniac character. I had somehow taken it for granted
that the house was abandoned, yet as I bought it I was not so hasher,
for though the credit consolidation loan
were indeed overgrown with weeds, they sneered to retain their nature a
little too well to argue lucid desertion. Glowing and ineluctable debt consolidation loans
among the mill-workers were installment, and occasionally beardown
talent of nonchalant grade was imported. It had rested a uncovered arm
or practicing on my chest... Their quarter-century-old credit card consolidation loan hanged fewer and fewer, till at last they awarded to intermarrying with the wrong unchangeable class about the estate. The consolidation loan with poor credit were of smug boards, and had probably never known plaster, whilst the abundance of dust and direct loan consolidation
implored the place seem more vast than apocryphal. Blending with this
display of peculiar magnificence, or rather, supplanting it at debt consolidation loan in ribald rotation, were glimpses of hot no credit check debt consolidation loan and dear valleys, scandalizing mountains and distraught bill consolidation loans, covered with every unglamorous attribute of scenery which my high-interest non profit debt consolidation loan
could conceive of, yet formed wholly of some proportionate, coherent
plastic entity, which in consistency built as much of spirit as of
3945 You can buy viagra from this site :http://www.ed.greatnow.com
4444 Why is Texas holdem so darn popular all the sudden?
5999 ok you can play online poker at this address : http://www.play-online-poker.greatnow.com
2994 get cialis online from this site http://www.cialis.owns1.com
8879 Keep it up! Try Viagra once and youll see. http://viagra.levitra-i.com
4307 Get your online poker fix at http://www.onlinepoker-dot.com
1856 check out the hot blackjack at http://www.blackjack-p.com here
you can play blackjack online all you want! So everyone ~SMURKLE~
6054 Herie http://blaja.web-cialis.com is online for all your black jack needs. We also have your blackjack needs met as well ;-)