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May 28, 2003

CENTERLINE....In June we get to vote on whether or not we want to approve the construction of CenterLine, a light rail system. Now, I happen to think that Orange County is about the worst place you could choose to build light rail, but what really annoys me is the campaign flyer I just got from the pro-CenterLine forces. They give me two reasons to vote in favor:

  • CenterLine will not pass through Woodbridge (my neighborhood).

  • There's no cost to Irvine taxpayers. It's all paid for by the state and the feds, and if we don't use the money then it will just go somewhere else.

Let's give conservatives their due: this is the kind of stuff that gives liberals a bad name when it comes to projects like this. Don't worry, it will only annoy other people, not you! And it's not real money anyway!

Crikey. It's real money even if it is federal money. And arguing that if we don't use it then someone else will — well, if someone else with a genuine need for light rail gets to use it, that's fine. Let 'em.

The flyer didn't even bother to give me a single real reason to vote for CenterLine, just a couple of reasons why I shouldn't oppose it. Great use of taxpayer dough, guys.

Posted by Kevin Drum at May 28, 2003 07:34 PM | TrackBack


Comments

It's noteworthy that I'm not all that familiar with Orange County's public transit options (or lack thereof), but having lived in a small city (State College, PA) with a good bus system and now a large, multi-state city (DC) with a good subway/bus system, I find public transit indispensable. I still own a car, but I barely drive it.

That is the reason to vote for it. Maybe. If it's a well-designed light rail system.

Posted by: John Yuda at May 28, 2003 07:50 PM | PERMALINK

I would love it if they built a light rail stop in my neighborhood (Glendale). Public transportation in Southern California sucks. I don't know how bad it is in Irvine, but in L.A. it's so bad that the bus riders have a union. I generally support any reasonable public transportation initiatives, but I agree that the "As long as it doesn't bother me" argument is crap. Considering how conservative Orange County is, it doesn't suprise me that the flyer is more concerned with appealing to voters' own selfishness as opposed to emphasizing how many people a light rail could benefit.

Posted by: greg at May 28, 2003 07:58 PM | PERMALINK

Heh, as one who lives and works near Minneapolis, I can attest to the power of free federal money when it comes to transit pork. A LRT is being completed here now that essentially replaced what would have otherwise been a bus transit way, and the *only* reason it has going for it is that it will help promote the development of higher density housing along the corridor it will serve. The money was more needed elsewhere to help fix some parts of a freeway system that are now over 40 years old and are awful bottlenecks during rush hour.

Don't get me wrong though. I currently drive in a vanpool and support public transit wholeheartedly. (I served as a student representative to the city bus service in Ames, Iowa back in college for two years, and came away very impressed with how well a good bus system could work.) A commuter rail system would be a better use of public funding, but now that's unlikely as a result of the flap over light rail transit in the Twin Cities.

Posted by: David Wilford at May 28, 2003 08:02 PM | PERMALINK

I've lived in both Southern California (where the car is king) and New York City (the best public transportation in the country). If offered a decent public transportation system, will those in Orange County and greater Los Angeles take it?? New Yorkers use it because they grew up with it and its convenient (driving in New York is hell). I'm not so convinced much of anything will get Californians out of their cars and onto a light rail system.

Posted by: Double B at May 28, 2003 08:26 PM | PERMALINK

yeah, I'm a transit nut but I'm not sure I could sign off on centerline. To make it even maybe work it needs to go throughyour neighborhood - the fact that it seems to be avoiding all residential areas dooms it.

Posted by: Atrios at May 28, 2003 08:31 PM | PERMALINK

I served as a student representative to the city bus service in Ames, Iowa back in college for two years, and came away very impressed with how well a good bus system could work.

95% O-T here, but a friend of mine used to drive for CyRide, and the fact that they gave Jaqui a bus-driver's license is scary indeed. ;)

Posted by: John Yuda at May 28, 2003 08:36 PM | PERMALINK

yeah, I'm a ... nut .... --Atrios

And there it is. The quote Instapundit and Andy were hoping for. ;)

Posted by: John Yuda at May 28, 2003 08:39 PM | PERMALINK

They're just learning from what's happened in the rest of the country.

Vancouver, WA has repeatedly voted /against/ light rail (MAX) going through - the number one reason to vote against it?

'It was going too near my house.'

I nearly beat in the head of my friend who said that, too.

Grr.

Posted by: Crissa at May 28, 2003 08:40 PM | PERMALINK

I live in Houston. We're getting light rail. Despite, I might add, Tom DeLay. If anyone isn't familiar with that story, let's just put it this way: Tom DeLay decided Houston shouldn't have light rail unless certain steps were taken. No matter what the actual law was, Tom DeLay wasn't going to release federal funds until he was darn well satisfied with the situation. I'm pretty sure he was looking for "rail being voted down", but I'm truly uncertain as to his motives. Regardless, last I checked, we don't have federal funding.

Anyways, downtown is a mess. Between the nasty flood last year, and light rail, it's impossible to get anywhere. There's lots of complaints that the positioning is pointless. It goes from one side of downtown to the other. To get to it, you drive or ride the bus.

It doesn't occur to most people that what works best is to set it up so that all the most frequent destinations are connected, then extend it outwards into the suburban sprawl. No one's going to ride downtown if the only destination is a 40 minute walk from where they want to go.

Anyways, I'm all for it. I dread the days I have to go downtown. I was thrilled beyond belief when I realized I could (for free) park and ride to the courthouse for jury duty.

Frankly, light rail is needed here because Houston is sprawled all over the place, and in some places the freeway simply can't be widened fast enough.

I'm all for it, even if it does go near my house. I'd like a no hassle route into the city, without having to worry about traffic.

Posted by: Morat at May 28, 2003 08:54 PM | PERMALINK

I'm all for it, even if it does go near my house. I'd like a no hassle route into the city, without having to worry about traffic.

That's exactly what I've got. I walk a few blocks from my door, get on the train, and I'm deposited across the street from my building.. or, if I need to spend the morning up on the Hill, I go one extra stop. Total commute: 30-40 minutes one way, depending on how I hit the trains. Total cost: $3.50 a day, round-trip.

Posted by: John Yuda at May 28, 2003 08:57 PM | PERMALINK

It's all paid for by the state and the feds, and if we don't use the money then it will just go somewhere else.

Slightly OT, but it's interesting to note that this thinking is prevalent within the private sector too. Some systems folks at my ex-company once tried to talk my group into installing a system that really didn't suit our needs on the basis that we could pay for it with a chunk of merger integration funds...use it or lose it.

Posted by: TomF at May 28, 2003 09:41 PM | PERMALINK

Just to make my own position clear here....

Light rail can sometimes make sense in a city where the population density is fairly high. Even then it's an iffy proposition economically, but there's more to this than just economics.

But Orange County is a suburb, with densities so low that it's just impossible to build a rail line that will ever get much ridership. Even CenterLine's own literature only says it will save 14,000 car trips a day. This is almost certainly over-optimistic, but even if it isn't that's a drop in the bucket.

But for some reason this idea just won't die. I really don't get it.

Posted by: Kevin Drum at May 28, 2003 09:46 PM | PERMALINK

Man, I wish they had a light rail commuter train connecting La Jolla with downtown San Diego. If yall don't need that state and federal money, send it down here.

Posted by: Nate at May 28, 2003 10:08 PM | PERMALINK

Here in Seattle, it looks like we might actually get the Monorail we voted for (twice). Woo hoo!

Posted by: Realish at May 28, 2003 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, in an area like that, the rail can be used as a nucleous to form density around.

Currently, Orange County is spread to heck and back. It's horrible to get across. There's no mass transit answers, yes. Obviously.

But forming the rail gives some place to put the businesses, the apartments, in places where they're attractive.

As found in many metropolises, having the line there actually ups the value or rental properties and apartment complexes.

So much so, that in Beaverton, OR (which is much like Orange County except smaller and worse to get across) actually had independent investors build high-density housing around the rails.

It was great.

-Crissa

Posted by: Crissa at May 28, 2003 10:34 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know about the lack of density issue - St. Clair County, IL is a lot less dense than Orange County (trust me, you're really packing 'em in there) and it's got light rail going from downtown St. Louis to farmland near Scott AFB. Park and Ride lots have hundreds of spaces available, and there's a bit of development going on near the end of the line. Within a couple of years, another line from the city through Clayton (St. Louis County business center) to South St. Louis County, which is a) a pain to get around in and b) no more crowded than Orange County. It's successful enough that there's little opposition in principle to proposed expansion.

However, if they only claim to save 14,000 car trips a day, they're probably building it wrong. Metrolink's ridership is 45,000/day. OC could probably use 3 lines - one going from Brea to Long Beach (connect with the Blue Line), a line going from around the El Toro Y tracking along the 405 (stop at the airport) joining up with the Brea line somewhere in Garden Grove, and a line linking Fullerton, Anaheim and downtown Santa Ana ending at the Marine base in Tustin.

Posted by: Dr. Squid at May 28, 2003 11:32 PM | PERMALINK

My friends and I were discussing mass transit in LA/OC (I lived in Boston, NY and SF, I hated how the BART and the T closed before the bars) and decided that one of the biggest problems down here is the ample parking. Sitting through traffic can be planned around, to a certain extent, but parking in NYC and parts of SF and Boston are complete crapshoots unless you pay $20 for parking. The easier it is to park, the less people will use public transportation.

Posted by: Mo at May 28, 2003 11:40 PM | PERMALINK

Reading OCTA's proposal, I have to conclude that it's pretty ineffective. An 11-mile line avoiding residential areas just won't cut it. The local line from end to end is about 35 miles and will top 40 miles should MidAmerica Airport ever get real air traffic going through it. A buck and a quarter gets you from Southern Illinois cornfields to Lambert International Airport.

Vote against CenterLine, but only because they're doing it half-assed.

Posted by: Dr. Squid at May 28, 2003 11:45 PM | PERMALINK

The thing is, with orange county, and particularly irvine through which much of the line is passing, you just aren't going to see the increased density happening. If they have to sell the thing by promising it won't go through residential neighborhoods, then it should be killed.

Posted by: Atrios at May 29, 2003 04:47 AM | PERMALINK

I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
Monorail!

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

Posted by: ChrisL at May 29, 2003 06:09 AM | PERMALINK

Hi, could any of you explain the difference between "light rail" and "commuter rail"? These sound like they mean the same thing to me... I live in suburban Essex County, NJ and find the train in to the city to be a great thing. Every morning I take NJ Transit, PATH, and (if it's raining) the subway, it adds up to about $160/mo. NJ Transit definitely does not avoid residential areas though, it snakes right through towns. It is a good thing because Essex County consists predominantly of residential areas, I'm not sure how you would lay out a rail line to avoid them.

Posted by: Jeremy Osner at May 29, 2003 06:37 AM | PERMALINK

There's no real strict difference between light rail and heavy rail. But, roughly speaking light rail is the successor to old street car systems, though they often run on dedicated tracks rather than on the streets. They're designed for quick stopping and starting, and are generally electric with low floors, the former allowing for quick acceleration and the latter providing for quick on/off by passengers.

Heavy rail or commuter rail systems are generally heavier, run on bigger gauge tracks, are more suited for travelling farther distances with fewer stops.

Generally, commuter rail systems can run on existing freight rail tracks which gives them a cost advantage because they can exploit existing infrastructure, but otherwise for most purposes light rail is probably a better bet - it has most of the advantages of heavy rail and fewer disadvantages.

Posted by: Atrios at May 29, 2003 06:59 AM | PERMALINK

" I'm not so convinced much of anything will get Californians out of their cars and onto a light rail system.
Posted by Double B at May 28, 2003 08:26 PM"

Actually, BB, it is possible. The above-mentioned Metrolink line from San Bernardino to LA has had to ADD 2 extra cars per train to cover the load. Anyone with experience in Southern California Rush-hour Freeways can testify as to why this happened.

By the way - if John Longville, the politician behind the Metrolink out here, ever runs for national office, give some serious thought to supporting him. He definitely is the exception to the politician rule.

Posted by: pessimist at May 29, 2003 08:43 AM | PERMALINK

Anyone with experience in Southern California Rush-hour

I don't know what you're talking about here. When I was in SoCal, the only rushing I did was walking from the beach house (actually three blocks inland) to the bar down by the ocean in Hermosa.

Of course, it's probably noteworthy that I was mooching off a friend's cousin and had no job. ;)

Posted by: John Yuda at May 29, 2003 08:51 AM | PERMALINK

My Irvine politics isn't up-to-date but I think that they don't even allow the kind of housing density that many of you think would result from the installation of a light rail.

As for the possibility of effective mass transit systems in California, I think that many of you don't really understand the scale of California. Silicon Valley and L.A. are practically the size of some East Coast States. When I visited the East Coast, I was shocked by how often I crossed state lines. In San Diego I can travel for more than an hour of light traffic and not even leave San Diego County.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at May 29, 2003 09:06 AM | PERMALINK

Thats more than an hour at 75 on a freeway....I'm not talking city streets.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at May 29, 2003 09:07 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian - while that is true, light rail and commuter rail within the urban areas can be extremely effective in reducing the number of cars on the freeway. BART, CalTrain, and the San Jose light rail system are all heavily used, as is MetroLink and the (much-derided) MetroRail system. And this over decent-length distances, too.

I don't know enough about Orange County's housing politics to know if light rail is useful there; certainly a light rail system which is being promoted as staying away from residential areas seems idiotic, though.

Posted by: aphrael at May 29, 2003 09:13 AM | PERMALINK

75 miles of travelling doesn't get you out of San Diego County, Sebastian? I didn't think California was THAT big . . .

Posted by: rea at May 29, 2003 09:17 AM | PERMALINK

From Riverside, CA, to the Arizona border typically takes about two hours of freeway driving. San Diego County runs from the coast (significantly to the west of Riverside) to a point roughly halfway to the Arizona border, so it's not implausible at all to say that one could drive for an hour at 75 and not leave the county.

Posted by: aphrael at May 29, 2003 09:32 AM | PERMALINK

If the damned thing doesn't go near anybody's house, how is anybody supposed to get on it? Drive to the station?
That might be a solution, but it ought to be advertised.
Actually, the utility of the program doesn't matter (see Detroit's Peoplemover). It's the constituencies that matter. The guys who want more county and state construction business. The unions who want the jobs. The greenies who want to be able to make other people Do The Right Thing.
Ordinary people are not a consideration.
I haven't seen the Detroit abomination entirely, but one writer observed that its few deviations from a straight line seemed to be only where there were going businesses in an otherwise desolate field of nightmares. Is Eminent Domain a synonym for extortion?

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at May 29, 2003 09:50 AM | PERMALINK

BART, CalTrain, and the San Jose light rail system are all heavily used

<rant>
I'm not sure about BART, but CalTrain ridership is way down, and VTA light rail ridership (along with bus ridership) has plummetted. VTA is locked into extending light rail from downtown to Campbell, which is a corrider that doesn't account for much traffic at all--and they're building at the same time that they're elminating several bus lines, reducing service on dozens of others, and laying off workers.

I don't drive at all, so I'm a huge fan of public transit when done well (I ride CalTrain from San Jose to San Mateo and back 3-5 days a week), and light rail--when done wisely--can be a great service for both getting commuters out of their cars and improving the lives of people who already rely on public transit. Salt Lake City (where I grew up, and where the buses didn't used to run on Sundays) built a light rail system prior to (and as a condition of) the 2002 Olympics, after huge debates and a lot of skepticism. It's been hugely popular, and already extended twice. But they built it along heavily trafficked (sp?) corridors.

I don't know Orange County at all, but San Jose is very spread out. Running light rail from downtown to Campbell is a ridiculous waste of money that will mostly appeal to weekending yuppies who want to have a fun ride downtown to see some local color--instead of extending it to the airport (which will have to be done anyway) or, better yet, running a line from downtown west on Stevens Creek out at least to Valley Fair and preferably all the way to De Anza College. Now that would get some ridership.
</rant>

Posted by: clue at May 29, 2003 10:12 AM | PERMALINK

"The thing is, with orange county, and particularly irvine through which much of the line is passing, you just aren't going to see the increased density happening."

exactly the increased Housing density/location of a majority of employment are at oposite ends of OC on a South/ North and East/West axis respectively. with housing growth happening in the South and East into Riverside county and a majority of business located in the North and West ; and right smack in the middle is suburban/residential Irvine/Tustin/Mission Viejo/Lake forest/Laguna Niguel.

While these communities are labelled "planned communities" it only refers to what is hermetically sealed within those communities. The only planned thing that connects these communities are the Freeways. If the light rail follows the freeways it will avoid the residential ares but still service them at the same time. But then again what the hell do I know I live by the beach.....

"But Orange County is a suburb, with densities so low that it's just impossible to build a rail line that will ever get much ridership."

Not anymore; Orange County' s population density rivals Boston and its developed area is larger than Washington DC. OC's biggest suburb is Riverside County, hardly a suburb of LA anymore....

Posted by: J at May 29, 2003 11:15 AM | PERMALINK

Ye gods, I didn't know that so many of Calpundit's readers were so familiar with Orange County geography.

Let's see: Kevin, on density you're wrong. The IBD (irvine business district) employees more people than work in San Francisco (in a much smaller space), and the population densities of the developments rival that of a lot of cities. How? Try flying over OC. Not an inch is wasted. And the county, compared to many urban centers, is badly underparked (as in recreation, not parking).

The light rail idea has been kicking around for several years, as part of a special demonstration project in ICTEA or TEA-21. (the two huge recent transportation bills) The big problem is O&M. The feds will fund construction, but operations and maintenance is a county obligation. Light rail can have significant O&M costs and you can't charge even close to enough on fares to cover the cost. Even advertising will only be a drop in the bucket. So the real question is whether OCTA should commit to the long term O&M outlays, or save their money for buses.

If the lightrail were the only project out there, more money on buses would make a lot more sense. but octa (last i checked) has visions of grandeur and wants to connect the light rail both to commuter rail and to new high-speed bus lines. As the north-south backbone of a larger system, the light rail could make sense.

but the larger system will require local tax dollars. highway money largely comes from the state and feds, by contrast, so its easy to see why SANBAG (the regional transportation planning agency) prefers roads and has not made a big push into public transit. also, the well-documented disasters of LA's recent forays into rail (remember the end of the movie "Speed"?) make the county pretty wary. hence the very lukewarm flyer.

p.s. an early version actually had the light rail making a stop inside John Wayne airport terminal. the terminal authority apparently had a cow, so now the line has a stop on the other side of the street. but those of us who use the airport know that there is no easy way into the terminal from that location, due to the construction of a new parking lot. Any similarity between this planning and the light rail planning in LA, where the green line comes close to, but not into, LAX, is purely coincidental.
[and if you believe that . . . ]

Posted by: FDL at May 29, 2003 08:15 PM | PERMALINK

Off-topic:

By the way - if John Longville, the politician behind the Metrolink out here, ever runs for national office, give some serious thought to supporting him. He definitely is the exception to the politician rule.

I quite like Longville. He's very keen.

His wife, BTW, was threatened with death for introducting an anti-war resolution in the San Bernardino city council.

--Kynn

Posted by: Kynn at May 30, 2003 06:35 AM | PERMALINK

I'm an Angeleno and I've relied on on public transportation since I got rid of my last car in, oh, 1983 or so. I can't think of anything that's made my life easier than the Red Line (subway from North Hollywood in the San Fernando Valley to downtown LA -- about 20 miles of track). I use it daily to get from my home in Hollywood to downtown, where I catch a shuttle bus to take me to my job in South Central...er, South LA. (And since my job is with LA County's largest private employer, and because the AQMD -- Air Quality Management District -- insists on pushing public transportation -- my employer subsidizes my $42 MTA monthly pass so that it only costs me $17.) So my daily 15 mile each way commute costs me virtually nothing.

Oh, and nothing will get Angelenos out of their cars? The Red Line has the third (fourth?) highest ridership of any subway system in the US despite the fact that it has only one line.

But then I take the light rail Blue Line (downtown LA to Long Beach) and Green Line (Redondo Beach to Norwalk) -- and when it opens next month I'll start taking the Gold Line, from downtown to Pasadena, every now and then -- once or twice a week to meet a friend for lunch who lives in Brea. The freeway system in at least northern Orange County is a total nightmare,much worse than anything I've ever seen in Los Angeles County, what with single occupant cars speeding around giant 18-wheelers.

So yes, OC needs better public transportation, but the CenterLine strikes me as totally nuts.

Dr. Squid wrote:
However, if they only claim to save 14,000 car trips a day, they're probably building it wrong. Metrolink's ridership is 45,000/day. OC could probably use 3 lines - one going from Brea to Long Beach (connect with the Blue Line), a line going from around the El Toro Y tracking along the 405 (stop at the airport) joining up with the Brea line somewhere in Garden Grove, and a line linking Fullerton, Anaheim and downtown Santa Ana ending at the Marine base in Tustin.

Dr. Squid's recommendations of routes strikes me as exactly right.

Arne

Posted by: Arne Adolfsen at May 30, 2003 08:02 AM | PERMALINK

What was that line from the movie? "If you build it, they will come."

I grew up in Irvine, and I now live in Beaverton, OR, where I ride the MAX light rail system all the time. Oregon is the first state I've lived in where I don't own a car. I'm saving a heck of a lot of money; literally hundreds of dollars a month, thousands of dollars a year in gas, insurance, maintenance, and car payments. Maybe some of you have never been on a light rail transit system before. Perhaps you have nightmares it would be like riding the spray-prainted, gang-infested subways of New York City. I can tell you it's nothing like that at all. It's not exactly as convenient, or even as private as having one's own car, but light rail is way to get from place to place cheaply, comfortably, and without the fumes and jolting, jarring ride of a city bus. Those trains GLIDE on their tracks, y' know.. The benefits of light rail are such that I think it's worth it, even if the cost runs into hundreds of millions of dollars. I can think of no other suburban sprawl that needs light rail more than Orange County, CA.

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I criticize by creation -- not by finding fault.

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